How to tackle this junction? Road too wide
Discussion
This approach was rebuilt from one into two lanes off the A12 going into Chelmsford a while ago.
The slip road is fairly normal size, clearly two lanes. However just before the roundabout it widens out to nearly double the width, not particularly obvious on streetview but it's miles wider, it's still only marked as two lanes however.
The other day a small queue was formed turning first left (for the industrial estate, normally a busy exit) and a Transit was parked right over on the far right - no indicator but assumed he was taking the fourth or fifth exit.
There was room for two more lines of traffic between him and the cars turning first left. The exit onto the Springfield second turn is two lanes.
So I sidled up in between everyone and turned into the second left. Transit driver honked not happy, turned out he was going that way as well.
So.... it's marked as two lanes, is that mandatory to only queue in two lanes even though there's tons of space?
The slip road is fairly normal size, clearly two lanes. However just before the roundabout it widens out to nearly double the width, not particularly obvious on streetview but it's miles wider, it's still only marked as two lanes however.
The other day a small queue was formed turning first left (for the industrial estate, normally a busy exit) and a Transit was parked right over on the far right - no indicator but assumed he was taking the fourth or fifth exit.
There was room for two more lines of traffic between him and the cars turning first left. The exit onto the Springfield second turn is two lanes.
So I sidled up in between everyone and turned into the second left. Transit driver honked not happy, turned out he was going that way as well.
So.... it's marked as two lanes, is that mandatory to only queue in two lanes even though there's tons of space?
The signs on the carriageway are advisory.
The lanes widths have probably been flared to allow for the swept paths of large articulated trucks.
Creating extra files is done at your own risk, and clearly not recommended, possibly classed as - driving without due regard to other road users.
The lanes widths have probably been flared to allow for the swept paths of large articulated trucks.
Creating extra files is done at your own risk, and clearly not recommended, possibly classed as - driving without due regard to other road users.
popeyewhite said:
"Extra files"?
OP - just do what the locals do providing it's safe and legal.
Well yes, that's part of the confusion, the other locals almost always just file in two lanes. OP - just do what the locals do providing it's safe and legal.
Totally get the point if there is an arctic turning left and swinging out, but if I'm at the head of the "middle" queue I can get get well clear easily.
Hammersia said:
Well yes, that's part of the confusion, the other locals almost always just file in two lanes.
Totally get the point if there is an arctic turning left and swinging out, but if I'm at the head of the "middle" queue I can get get well clear easily.
I'd just use two lanes then. Totally get the point if there is an arctic turning left and swinging out, but if I'm at the head of the "middle" queue I can get get well clear easily.
I remember being in a taxi near Rome, and the driver had the same idea about the autostrada as he filtered his Multipla between two lanes of traffic at 80mph...
Lane markings might be advisory, but if you flout them the best outcome is that you will look like a d
head. At worst you will cause an accident as people aren't expecting you to be driving Italy/Bradford style.
Lane markings might be advisory, but if you flout them the best outcome is that you will look like a d
head. At worst you will cause an accident as people aren't expecting you to be driving Italy/Bradford style.popeyewhite said:
Hammersia said:
Well yes, that's part of the confusion, the other locals almost always just file in two lanes.
Totally get the point if there is an arctic turning left and swinging out, but if I'm at the head of the "middle" queue I can get get well clear easily.
I'd just use two lanes then. Totally get the point if there is an arctic turning left and swinging out, but if I'm at the head of the "middle" queue I can get get well clear easily.
You were in the wrong, build a bridge & get over it.
There's the advisory nature of lane markings, combined with what other road users would 'reasonably' expect you to do. I'd say what you elected to was not the most sensible course of action.
If you wanted to make progress, as is clear if you ended up creating your own space in between two marked lanes, I don't understand why you didn't just choose lane 2 on the approach to the roundabout and then take the 2nd exit off the roundabout in lane 2? Same outcome, but without potentially annoying or confusing other road users?
Another thought process to take is... if there were two police cars sat waiting to move onto the roundabout in those two wide lanes as you describe, would you have gone down the middle of them to create your own lane?
If you wanted to make progress, as is clear if you ended up creating your own space in between two marked lanes, I don't understand why you didn't just choose lane 2 on the approach to the roundabout and then take the 2nd exit off the roundabout in lane 2? Same outcome, but without potentially annoying or confusing other road users?
Another thought process to take is... if there were two police cars sat waiting to move onto the roundabout in those two wide lanes as you describe, would you have gone down the middle of them to create your own lane?
Wardy5 said:
There's the advisory nature of lane markings, combined with what other road users would 'reasonably' expect you to do. I'd say what you elected to was not the most sensible course of action.
If you wanted to make progress, as is clear if you ended up creating your own space in between two marked lanes, I don't understand why you didn't just choose lane 2 on the approach to the roundabout and then take the 2nd exit off the roundabout in lane 2? Same outcome, but without potentially annoying or confusing other road users?
Another thought process to take is... if there were two police cars sat waiting to move onto the roundabout in those two wide lanes as you describe, would you have gone down the middle of them to create your own lane?
Well, yes, the photo doesn't really convey just how wide this approach is. Widest two lane approach one in the country I reckon.If you wanted to make progress, as is clear if you ended up creating your own space in between two marked lanes, I don't understand why you didn't just choose lane 2 on the approach to the roundabout and then take the 2nd exit off the roundabout in lane 2? Same outcome, but without potentially annoying or confusing other road users?
Another thought process to take is... if there were two police cars sat waiting to move onto the roundabout in those two wide lanes as you describe, would you have gone down the middle of them to create your own lane?
Wardy5 said:
Width of approach is obviously one consideration. But that width doesn't continue to be available onto the roundabout does it? So you end up with a taper.
So if all three of those vehicles waiting set off at the same time, what would be the outcome?
On this specific junction, left hand lane is almost always going first left, slowly, into the industrial estate. Right hand lane, or the extreme right side, going at least to exit 3 more likely 4 or 5.So if all three of those vehicles waiting set off at the same time, what would be the outcome?
So vehicle in the middle lane should normally be ok not getting in anyone's way.
Hammersia said:
Well, yes, the photo doesn't really convey just how wide this approach is. Widest two lane approach one in the country I reckon.
Nowhere near. 9b of the M25 (iirc) is wider. There will be many others. Hammersia said:
Well, yes, the photo doesn't really convey just how wide this approach is. Widest two lane approach one in the country I reckon.
Width of approach is bang-on, considering the approach angle and swept path of large vehicles expected to be leaving the A12.https://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/search/html...
Road markings may be advisory, but if you cause an accident by driving otherwise in accordance with the markings, then they will be taken in to consideration by Plod.
Wardy5 said:
Width of approach is obviously one consideration. But that width doesn't continue to be available onto the roundabout does it? So you end up with a taper.
So if all three of those vehicles waiting set off at the same time, what would be the outcome?
The entry width and width of roundabout are directly related. You can't have a wide entrance to a narrow(er) roundabout. Well, technically you can, but you would need sign-off (with a bloody good reason) from the Highway Authority, and (certainly in Essex) it would more often than not be rejected. So if all three of those vehicles waiting set off at the same time, what would be the outcome?
Rusty Old-Banger said:
Hammersia said:
Well, yes, the photo doesn't really convey just how wide this approach is. Widest two lane approach one in the country I reckon.
Nowhere near. 9b of the M25 (iirc) is wider. There will be many others. Hammersia said:
Well, yes, the photo doesn't really convey just how wide this approach is. Widest two lane approach one in the country I reckon.
Width of approach is bang-on, considering the approach angle and swept path of large vehicles expected to be leaving the A12.https://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/search/html...
Road markings may be advisory, but if you cause an accident by driving otherwise in accordance with the markings, then they will be taken in to consideration by Plod.
Wardy5 said:
Width of approach is obviously one consideration. But that width doesn't continue to be available onto the roundabout does it? So you end up with a taper.
So if all three of those vehicles waiting set off at the same time, what would be the outcome?
The entry width and width of roundabout are directly related. You can't have a wide entrance to a narrow(er) roundabout. Well, technically you can, but you would need sign-off (with a bloody good reason) from the Highway Authority, and (certainly in Essex) it would more often than not be rejected. So if all three of those vehicles waiting set off at the same time, what would be the outcome?
Are lane markings really advisory? How come a solid white line in the middle of a single carriageway road isn’t advisory?
So we have a situation where white lines delineating lanes are advisory only if they separate lanes of traffic flowing in the same direction, but are not advisory and must be obeyed if they separate traffic in opposite directions?
So we have a situation where white lines delineating lanes are advisory only if they separate lanes of traffic flowing in the same direction, but are not advisory and must be obeyed if they separate traffic in opposite directions?
Hammersia said:
Rusty Old-Banger said:
Hammersia said:
Well, yes, the photo doesn't really convey just how wide this approach is. Widest two lane approach one in the country I reckon.
Nowhere near. 9b of the M25 (iirc) is wider. There will be many others. Hammersia said:
Well, yes, the photo doesn't really convey just how wide this approach is. Widest two lane approach one in the country I reckon.
Width of approach is bang-on, considering the approach angle and swept path of large vehicles expected to be leaving the A12.https://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/search/html...
Road markings may be advisory, but if you cause an accident by driving otherwise in accordance with the markings, then they will be taken in to consideration by Plod.
Wardy5 said:
Width of approach is obviously one consideration. But that width doesn't continue to be available onto the roundabout does it? So you end up with a taper.
So if all three of those vehicles waiting set off at the same time, what would be the outcome?
The entry width and width of roundabout are directly related. You can't have a wide entrance to a narrow(er) roundabout. Well, technically you can, but you would need sign-off (with a bloody good reason) from the Highway Authority, and (certainly in Essex) it would more often than not be rejected. So if all three of those vehicles waiting set off at the same time, what would be the outcome?
PlywoodPascal said:
Are lane markings really advisory? How come a solid white line in the middle of a single carriageway road isn’t advisory?
So we have a situation where white lines delineating lanes are advisory only if they separate lanes of traffic flowing in the same direction, but are not advisory and must be obeyed if they separate traffic in opposite directions?
A broken line generally means "should not cross unless safe to do so". A solid line means "shall not cross". That's the same for edge lines, centre lines, edge of hatching etc etc. (Read TSM Chapter 5 if you're interested or need to fall asleep!) So we have a situation where white lines delineating lanes are advisory only if they separate lanes of traffic flowing in the same direction, but are not advisory and must be obeyed if they separate traffic in opposite directions?
Yes road/lane destination markings are generally advisory, as in not supported by a TRO, but if you cause an accident by not following them, then you will more than likely be deemed at fault.
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