Footwear For Heel & Toe Driving

[chumpers]

Hi

When driving different cars I have to choose between two shoes on my right foot to accommodate for the differing pedal height/travel. I have some large ‘Cat’ shoes that have a very wide, thick toe section. The ‘Cat’ shoes have poor pedal feel but allow me to heel and toe in the Seat Altea, Renault Megane, Renault Clio, Nissan 350Z and Saab 93, among others. I have some cheap karting shoes that have much thinner, narrower soles compared to the ‘Cats’. I find the karting shoes are too narrow on the above vehicles and so, even though pedal feel is better, I can’t heel and toe with them. I believe there is a legal limit of 48mm between the brake and throttle pedals in road cars and so this distance generally requires a larger soled shoe, in my case, to use both pedals at the same time. However with the Fiat Panda and Vauxhall Astra I can heel and toe satisfactorily with the karting shoe. Does anyone here have the same issues and/or a better solution? A wide but thin soled shoe seems an obvious answer but do you know anyone who makes them?

I always fit the karting shoe on my left foot as this allows more room in the footwell for left foot braking and better clutch/brake feel.

If you are wondering, “Has he ever forgotten about the odd shoes when paying for petrol at the counter” the answer is an embarrassing yes :-)


Thanks

[Hanse Cronje]

how do you manage it in a megane?? I've driven the wife's and can't do it without either being a contortionist or seriously bending the peddles

same in my laguna

[Chumpers]

Hi

I had not considered trainers to be honest, I will take a look, thanks.

As for the Megane I can only heel and toe with the Cat shoes on as the sole is very wide, allowing both pedals to be pressed. If I try a normal width shoe they are too narrow and contortionist skills are required.

Next time I drive a Megane (I don't own one) I will take a better look how I use the pedals and I will take a picture that I can mail you, off list, of how I heel and toe if that will help. This will also show the Cat shoes I use. The forum maintainers may think I'm starting a foot fetish subgroup though so I best be careful ;-)

Cheers

[Hasbeen]

I have never used heel & toe in the true sence of the words. It has always been toe & ankle, or at least the side of the heel in some cars.
In some cars I have had to adjust the break peddle to achieve this. In one car I had to bend the shank of the peddle down, & to the right.

[rufus]

A Pair of Hi-tec Squash or similar is what you want... thin enough for the "sporty cars" and wide enough to H&T a VW Transporter

[Chumpers]

That's great, I will go hunting for trainers. I can take my Cat shoes to compare sole widths.

Cheers

[Don]

Nothing beats a proper pair of Sparco booties!

I have a pair in black leather (rather then bright red flock) as they attract less attention when driving to and from track days...

I don't actually wear them for everyday driving - I have found that a regular pair of "boat shoes" is fine for that.

[7db]

I'm thinking of a pair of diver's flippers - my boots keep slipping down the middle of the pedals...

[BOF]

We CAN assume I hope, that heel and toe is being discussed here in an 'off road' context?

BOF.

[Chumpers]

7db said:

I'm thinking of a pair of diver's flippers - my boots keep slipping down the middle of the pedals...

Now I hadn't thought of that. Wide enough to use all three pedals with one foot, thin enough to provide plenty of feel. They will also come in handy when wading with the 4x4 ;-)

[DanH]

You might find your technique is incorrect if you are finding the problems you outline. In a car with poorly setup pedals, it is normally the pedal height difference that gets you, not the distance between pedals assuming correct technique. I much prefer narrow shoes for H&T.

If you would like instruction in H&T, I can recommend www.carlimits.com.

>> Edited by DanH on Monday 2nd January 19:25

[Chumpers]

I find if I bridge the throttle and brake pedals with narrow shoes on my foot occasionally misses the throttle pedal when blipping the accelerator. I have more of my right foot on the brake pedal than is taught for heel and toeing but this is what feels comfortable for me. I know what you mean about pedal height too, this causes problems for me with H&T.

I will be attending some car control training soon and I will discuss this issue with the instructor.


Thanks

[hanse cronje]

DanH said:

You might find your technique is incorrect if you are finding the problems you outline. In a car with poorly setup pedals, it is normally the pedal height difference that gets you, not the distance between pedals assuming correct technique. I much prefer narrow shoes for H&T. If you would like instruction in H&T, I can recommend www.carlimits.com. >> Edited by DanH on Monday 2nd January 19:25

in both Renaults there is a significant difference of the height of the brake and the accelerator, past cars (ford escorts mk2, mini metro) pedals were better placed and easier to manipulate into position

[DanH]

Chumpers said:

I find if I bridge the throttle and brake pedals with narrow shoes on my foot occasionally misses the throttle pedal when blipping the accelerator. I have more of my right foot on the brake pedal than is taught for heel and toeing but this is what feels comfortable for me. I know what you mean about pedal height too, this causes problems for me with H&T. I will be attending some car control training soon and I will discuss this issue with the instructor. Thanks

Still doesn't sound right. Ideally you should be hitting the throttle with the outside side of your shoe. i.e. twisting your foot to the right whilst bringing your heal out to 40deg or so to the right. Feels a bit unnatural at first, but I've never missed the throttle. If you haven't really got the fundamentals yet, then perhaps save it until you have time with someone to show you it properly. Frankly its dangerous if you make a mess of it.

Some instructors may not use the 'correct' technique if they are race drivers. In some race cars you can get away with just using the flat of your foot, but this doesn't convert well to road car pedal boxes. Roadcraft focussed instructors will likely suggest you don't ever use it, and to be fair they have a point. You shouldn't be needing to brake that hard as they teach you to make good progress by getting on the power early and braking in good time, rather than the opposite which I had (well I'm improving) a tendency to do (as StressedDave will vouch!).

[Andrew Noakes]

DanH said:

Ideally you should be hitting the throttle with the outside side of your shoe. i.e. twisting your foot to the right whilst bringing your heal out to 40deg or so to the right.

Like this:


These are Piloti driving shoes - they have a reinforced section on the outside of the right shoe specifically designed for heel & toe work.

[VOLVOS70T5]

BOF said:

We CAN assume I hope, that heel and toe is being discussed here in an 'off road' context? BOF.

I know many proponents of H+T on the road - Why do you believe it should be restricted to off-road?

[Hasbeen]

I can't imagine driving any other way. OK, so I'm an old racer, but I spent 20 years driving modern, boring, unloved cars, with perfect syncro gear boxes, which you jamed into gear, as you conducted them from place to place. I still came into any corner with my foot resting on the break peddle.
Then I bought myaelf an XK120, & rediscovered the joy of driving. You don't get a moss box into any gear with out matching revs.
Why would you not have your foot resting on the break peddle, when you may have to break?
The Jag has gone, I could not subject such a car to ouy lousy roads, & I now drive a TR7 DHC, & a 275 BHP TR8 DHC. one for wet, & one for dry.
Once again, I have perfect syncro, but I am no longer a zombie, when I get into a car. I go back through the gears, rarely actually using the breaks, but my foot is there, neady.
Its a good thing, that I'm an old bloke, I could not stand to be taught to drive by some fool who did not think that this is ths "correct" way to drive.

[Andrew Noakes]

Hasbeen said:

I can't imagine driving any other way.

Me neither. As I've said before, I heel and toe all the time in all cars, on road or track - provided the pedal arrangement allows it. I find it irritating when the pedal arrangement doesn't make H&T easy.

Some people seem to think that the heel and toe technique is only relevant if you are driving fast. I don't buy it.

[BOF]

""Roadcraft focussed instructors will likely suggest you don't ever use it, and to be fair they have a point. You shouldn't be needing to brake that hard as they teach you to make good progress by getting on the power early and braking in good time, rather than the opposite which I had (well I'm improving) a tendency to do (as StressedDave will vouch!).""

Dan has summed up my thoughts - while I do not subscribe to all that Paul Ripley writes, I quote;

"It requires a great deal of practice, and may be hazardous if used inappropriately by inexperienced drivers".

" Heel and toe is not something I would counsel for novices - or experienced drivers, for that matter - unless they have had hours of practice on traffic free or private roads"

In the time it has taken me to post this reply, someone has died, or is about to die, on our roads - about 3500 per year, 9 per day, one per busy hour on our roads?

Sorry, I AM 'Roadcraft orientated' and can see no place on public roads for techniques which involve special footwear or bending the pedals...or maybe encouraging the frigging muppets we all meet daily to go (?) faster.

BOF.



(Boring Old Fart as passenger recently)


>> Edited by BOF on Wednesday 4th January 18:38

[Andrew Noakes]

I would certainly agree that H&T needs practice, and can cause problems if you are not proficient. So can pull-push steering.

The bit I don't get is "You shouldn't be needing to brake that hard" implying that H&T is something you only ever do when you are braking hard. There's nothing in the H&T technique which mandates braking up to the limit of adhesion. Equally, there's nothing which says that if you are going to brake hard then you must heel and toe.