Footwear For Heel & Toe Driving
Discussion
Hi Peter,
Yes, I'd agree with you.
Like any technique, there are pros and cons in using this on the road. This approach to a corner compresses the Speed (braking or deceleration) and Gear phases. For many people, this can lead to reduced planning, increased task load on the approach to bends (leaving less mental space for hazard assessment).
An advantage of trail braking is to brake later, which is obviously what you want on track. Late braking in road driving can be dangerous if that is your normal approach to bends, which is why I argue that using this aproach every time is inflexible. There can often be better ways of approaching a bend in road driving.
A smooth, unobtrusively swift and nicely flowing road drive generally involves using deceleration in lieu of braking, using forward planning to ease off nice and early. This approach frees up mental space for observation and planning. It also avoids "charging the turn", so your bend exit speed is higher anyway. And you can gain a moment to let the car/bike settle before bend entry.
StressedDave instructs on road and track (with far more talent than me!). Ask him which approach he uses on road.
As ever, I'd advocate flexibility. Even a rare H&T or trail brake can have its place in "traditional" advanced driving (especially downhill). Just as circuit drivers/riders can always learn something from police roadcraft.
Cheers
Yes, I'd agree with you.
Like any technique, there are pros and cons in using this on the road. This approach to a corner compresses the Speed (braking or deceleration) and Gear phases. For many people, this can lead to reduced planning, increased task load on the approach to bends (leaving less mental space for hazard assessment).
An advantage of trail braking is to brake later, which is obviously what you want on track. Late braking in road driving can be dangerous if that is your normal approach to bends, which is why I argue that using this aproach every time is inflexible. There can often be better ways of approaching a bend in road driving.
A smooth, unobtrusively swift and nicely flowing road drive generally involves using deceleration in lieu of braking, using forward planning to ease off nice and early. This approach frees up mental space for observation and planning. It also avoids "charging the turn", so your bend exit speed is higher anyway. And you can gain a moment to let the car/bike settle before bend entry.
StressedDave instructs on road and track (with far more talent than me!). Ask him which approach he uses on road.
As ever, I'd advocate flexibility. Even a rare H&T or trail brake can have its place in "traditional" advanced driving (especially downhill). Just as circuit drivers/riders can always learn something from police roadcraft.
Cheers
I agree with everything said so far, although I'd like to say that I wasn't describing true trail braking, merely a neutralisation of handling balance on turn in - pretty much a standard technique. The idea here being that turn in requires going from no steering to the required amount for the bend and during that period (NOT before), you come off the brakes. True trail braking often involves braking right up to the apex of the corner (way after turn in), which I regard as an advanced track technique, and only really beneficial when going at speeds that would be totally unsuitable for the road.
The standard neutralisation on turn in technique is in sharp contrast to the technique I've seen a lot of advanced road drivers use, which is to finish one's braking in a straight line, come onto a steady throttle (maybe after a rev matched downchange - because if you can't heel and toe you need to come off the brake to do this), and then turn in. Turning in in this manner will cause the car to take up it's steady state handling trait, which is usually quite a bit of understeer (this happens in a flat out bend on track as well). Not so bad on the road, but the killer thing is that a car at this point is rarely actually in steady state: either the compression of the springs or the driver's finding of a steady throttle will mean more understeer. I think it is far safer to increase steering as you come off the brakes to settle a car into the bend.
Naturally, at sensible safe road speeds then any technique should see you under the limit. Even jumping on the controls like a lunatic shouldn't cause a slide at what I would regard as safe road speeds (unless you are in a Caterham!). My point is that by using the same technique that you would on a track to ensure you are at 100% of the limit front and rear, you can ensure 40% limit front and rear on the road. Not observing a balanced technique will typically see most drivers achieving 60% of the limit at the front, and 40% at the back. I see this as scruffy, and cause I've spent a while on track to me it just "feels wrong". Also, but not balancing the car, you are closer to the limit at the front than at the rear, and therefore less able to take avoiding action or deal with a sudden low grip situation.
Imagine two drivers going the same speed and experiencing a loss of grip due to a diesel spill or damp patch - if one driver is using the balanced technique his 40% might get 50% added to it, taking hiim to 90% (a merely worrying moment) - the driver who isn't balanced will have his 60% at the front taken to 110% (a slide, and maybe accident). I know understeer is said to be safer than oversteer for most drivers, but I'd rather stay *under* the limit on the public road!
The standard neutralisation on turn in technique is in sharp contrast to the technique I've seen a lot of advanced road drivers use, which is to finish one's braking in a straight line, come onto a steady throttle (maybe after a rev matched downchange - because if you can't heel and toe you need to come off the brake to do this), and then turn in. Turning in in this manner will cause the car to take up it's steady state handling trait, which is usually quite a bit of understeer (this happens in a flat out bend on track as well). Not so bad on the road, but the killer thing is that a car at this point is rarely actually in steady state: either the compression of the springs or the driver's finding of a steady throttle will mean more understeer. I think it is far safer to increase steering as you come off the brakes to settle a car into the bend.
Naturally, at sensible safe road speeds then any technique should see you under the limit. Even jumping on the controls like a lunatic shouldn't cause a slide at what I would regard as safe road speeds (unless you are in a Caterham!). My point is that by using the same technique that you would on a track to ensure you are at 100% of the limit front and rear, you can ensure 40% limit front and rear on the road. Not observing a balanced technique will typically see most drivers achieving 60% of the limit at the front, and 40% at the back. I see this as scruffy, and cause I've spent a while on track to me it just "feels wrong". Also, but not balancing the car, you are closer to the limit at the front than at the rear, and therefore less able to take avoiding action or deal with a sudden low grip situation.
Imagine two drivers going the same speed and experiencing a loss of grip due to a diesel spill or damp patch - if one driver is using the balanced technique his 40% might get 50% added to it, taking hiim to 90% (a merely worrying moment) - the driver who isn't balanced will have his 60% at the front taken to 110% (a slide, and maybe accident). I know understeer is said to be safer than oversteer for most drivers, but I'd rather stay *under* the limit on the public road!
Mark_SV said:
StressedDave instructs on road and track (with far more talent than me!). Ask him which approach he uses on road.
Normally I tend to separate braking from changing gear because I had it drummed into me at an impressionable age (22, but who's counting) that this was a good thing and should therefore be done. That said, I often use heel-and-toe, partly because I can and partly because I want to. I'm at the stage where I don't consciously think about how I drive, I just do it. An inexhaustive list of when I do use it follows:
1. When I've misjudged the severity of a bend on approach and need to lose more speed than I've planned. I have two choices - either brake harder or extend the braking distance into the area of road I'd already reserved for the gearchange and maintain the same pressure for passenger comfort and vehicle stability and combine the required change with the end of braking. Done right it also allows you to control the stability by controlling the weight distribution front and rear. Done wrong it's just wasting the potential of the car, is uncomfortable for your passengers and highlights all the other inadequacies.
2. Down hill into a tight bend - you keep control of speed through out the manoeuvre and don't have to allow the car to start accelerating (forcing a time pressure on you to get the gearchange completed often to the detriment of smoothness) while you're sorting out the thing between the seats.
3. When I want to get out the the way of a hard charging numptie accelerating towards the back of my car as I make a turn. That said, I use this very rarely and it's for my benefit not his - more often than not I give them plenty of warning and then make them slow down to the pace I want them to be at.
From a teaching point of view, I tend to work on creating time for people rather than necessarily working on bringing new techniques to the party at first. If you have enough time for you to do what you want how you want it, then you give a better performance. So in general I'll get clients to start things earlier, giving themselves time (and the car time - there's nothing worse than writing cheques and forcing the car to cash them) to give their best performance. Heel and toe is a hugely useful technique for unlocking the extra potential of a car's performance, but it should be taught at the point when it can unlock a car's performance and not when it can be used to cover up inadequacies in the driver's thinking or technique.
HTH
Dave
Dave,
""From a teaching point of view, I tend to work on creating time for people rather than necessarily working on bringing new techniques to the party at first. If you have enough time for you to do what you want how you want it, then you give a better performance. So in general I'll get clients to start things earlier, giving themselves time (and the car time - there's nothing worse than writing cheques and forcing the car to cash them) to give their best performance. Heel and toe is a hugely useful technique for unlocking the extra potential of a car's performance, but it should be taught at the point when it can unlock a car's performance and not when it can be used to cover up inadequacies in the driver's thinking or technique.""
As you may have seen, I have been in and out of this thread and have no problems with heel and toe in the right circumstances - you have summed up my thinking precisely, but more eloquently - of course!
BOF
""From a teaching point of view, I tend to work on creating time for people rather than necessarily working on bringing new techniques to the party at first. If you have enough time for you to do what you want how you want it, then you give a better performance. So in general I'll get clients to start things earlier, giving themselves time (and the car time - there's nothing worse than writing cheques and forcing the car to cash them) to give their best performance. Heel and toe is a hugely useful technique for unlocking the extra potential of a car's performance, but it should be taught at the point when it can unlock a car's performance and not when it can be used to cover up inadequacies in the driver's thinking or technique.""
As you may have seen, I have been in and out of this thread and have no problems with heel and toe in the right circumstances - you have summed up my thinking precisely, but more eloquently - of course!
BOF
Personally, I heel and toe on every downchange that involves braking (most of them). My father always did this in his classic cars (cause he had to, 30s and 40s cars need this), and as a kid I realised (and was told) that this was a smoother way of changing down. I also watched racing drivers closely and loved the smooth, unhurried way that most of them drove. I tried heel and toe when I was learning to drive, and found that it came naturally to me, and I've just always done it as I prefer it to normal downchanges. I don't see it as an advanced technique, just the way I change down a gear whilst braking.
The key to this is in the first word of my post...
Everyone has their own technique, and what's great about this forum is that we can share those. I've found reading this thread very interesting indeed!
The key to this is in the first word of my post...
Everyone has their own technique, and what's great about this forum is that we can share those. I've found reading this thread very interesting indeed!
I agree - but as an iam driver myself I question H n T on the open roads for most drivers. My biggest problem is that if you go into a corner (when most people h n T) and there is a blind and unforseen hazard then your right foot is not in the right positon to exert maximum braking force and the driver has more chance of mis-footing himself in the heat of the moment.
I find my weekend car has badly spaced pedals for H n T anyway and to be honest the practice isn't actually required in most modern performance cars..where brakes are far more effective at scrubbign speed, torque is abundant out of turns and diffs are able to translate more torque without locking. No most poeple do it because they think a)it's cool b)it amplifies the driving experience or c) because other dirvers can't do and there is some osrt of mystic kudos.. few do it for the just reasons outlined above whcih are outwith the reach of most drivers anyay.
On road, sometimes I'll blip the throttle on change down by switching my foot from brake to throttle and back to brake, where there's slow deceleration, to match the gear but never within the last braking zone. On track I try to H n T for slower corners where I'm coming down the gears and the spacing in the Mazda is good.. and the need to keep the revs up on the cam profile I'm running is crucial.
Of course Roadcraft and iam are against down-changing full stop which I sort of agree with but not fully as I think high powered cars (if speeds are a little enthusiastic) require some engine braking in more than just one gear. Of course IAM ignore this in as much that said driver shouldn't be doing x speed in the first place and should have reduced speed well before.
Driving a 4wd with an inherent understeer stance on track makes trail braking, and the odd flick, all neccessary if the car doesn't respond well the that initial bite.
I find the Sparco Pumas shoes are excellent for fast road work - plenty of feel.
It's nice to read from those who have way more understanding on this matter - thanks guys.
>> Edited by M Blur on Sunday 15th January 01:32
I find my weekend car has badly spaced pedals for H n T anyway and to be honest the practice isn't actually required in most modern performance cars..where brakes are far more effective at scrubbign speed, torque is abundant out of turns and diffs are able to translate more torque without locking. No most poeple do it because they think a)it's cool b)it amplifies the driving experience or c) because other dirvers can't do and there is some osrt of mystic kudos.. few do it for the just reasons outlined above whcih are outwith the reach of most drivers anyay.
On road, sometimes I'll blip the throttle on change down by switching my foot from brake to throttle and back to brake, where there's slow deceleration, to match the gear but never within the last braking zone. On track I try to H n T for slower corners where I'm coming down the gears and the spacing in the Mazda is good.. and the need to keep the revs up on the cam profile I'm running is crucial.
Of course Roadcraft and iam are against down-changing full stop which I sort of agree with but not fully as I think high powered cars (if speeds are a little enthusiastic) require some engine braking in more than just one gear. Of course IAM ignore this in as much that said driver shouldn't be doing x speed in the first place and should have reduced speed well before.
Driving a 4wd with an inherent understeer stance on track makes trail braking, and the odd flick, all neccessary if the car doesn't respond well the that initial bite.
I find the Sparco Pumas shoes are excellent for fast road work - plenty of feel.
It's nice to read from those who have way more understanding on this matter - thanks guys.
>> Edited by M Blur on Sunday 15th January 01:32
Thanks - I understand your viewpoint completely.
Personally, I can exert easly enough force with the ball of my foot to stop any car (all I ever use anyway), and have changed down using this method with every single gearchange in the 11 years I've been driving on the road, and even some of the years before that in fields and on private roads as I experimented with trying to copy Dad I think it would actually be unsafe for me to try and not do it now after all these years!
I just find that heel and toe makes everything smoother and..err.. well.. nicer!
Personally, I can exert easly enough force with the ball of my foot to stop any car (all I ever use anyway), and have changed down using this method with every single gearchange in the 11 years I've been driving on the road, and even some of the years before that in fields and on private roads as I experimented with trying to copy Dad
I think it would actually be unsafe for me to try and not do it now after all these years! I just find that heel and toe makes everything smoother and..err.. well.. nicer!
M Blur said:
Of course Roadcraft and iam are against down-changing full stop
Are they? For what reason? I can understand opposition to changing down unecessarily just to increase the amount of engine braking, but if you're changing down to be in the appropriate gear to accelerate out of the corner then I don't understand their opposition.
GreenV8S said:
Of course Roadcraft and iam are against down-changing full stop
Are they? For what reason? I can understand opposition to changing down unecessarily just to increase the amount of engine braking, but if you're changing down to be in the appropriate gear to accelerate out of the corner then I don't understand their opposition.
Against using engine braking is I think what M Blur meant - As I understand it, for Roadcraft/IAM engine braking is bad (arguably less control and increased wear on the car) but being in the right gear at the right time is key.
_Neal_ said:
being in the right gear at the right time is key.
That's the key thing for me I think. A lot of IAM and RoSPA guys seem to advocate slowing down in one gear, and then block changing to an appropriate gear for the hazard you are negotiating (corner, junction, etc). I'm not sure I agree with that, because one shouldn't just be thinking about what you're planning to do, but what you might have to do. You might have to swerve or do something unexpected. Maximum control of your car means having the revs up above 2,000; and to do this you need to change down as you decelerate. Always be prepared, and don't assume your plan will work out!
This may be a slight digression from the original topic, but as it has gone awry anyway, I was wondering what the consensus was on accelerator pedals with a tab low down on the left for heel and toeing?
Having trashed my ankle playing rugby and falling off motorbikes, I don't get quite the mobility I used to and twisting my foot for heel toeing is not only difficult but a bit painfull.
Cheers
Chris
>> Edited by ripton on Tuesday 17th January 20:05
Having trashed my ankle playing rugby and falling off motorbikes, I don't get quite the mobility I used to and twisting my foot for heel toeing is not only difficult but a bit painfull.
Cheers
Chris
>> Edited by ripton on Tuesday 17th January 20:05
My race car has this, and the pedals are also quite close together. Consequently, if I drive in my ordinary shoes, I can't operate the brake without accelerating at the same time! I have to be wearing my racing boots to do it. You may have to fiddle around to get it to work, but from my evidence there's no doubt that it makes it easier to hit the accelerator! Removing and bending a pedal from an ordinary road car would probably be a right pain to be honest. Thankfully, I have an unusual amount of twistability in my ankles, so I can heel and toe in almost anything (maybe this is 11 years of 300 heel and toe movements a day! 
)
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