A short lived romance!
Discussion
TripleS said:
Hello Sally,
I think you are setting out the correct procedures and perhaps believing that these need to be diligently followed all the time, whereas I'm suggesting that there are situations where the strict rules can be relaxed, so long as you are fully aware of what is going on around you and ready to apply the correct technique at short notice to deal with what may reasonably be expected to happen.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I think you are setting out the correct procedures and perhaps believing that these need to be diligently followed all the time, whereas I'm suggesting that there are situations where the strict rules can be relaxed, so long as you are fully aware of what is going on around you and ready to apply the correct technique at short notice to deal with what may reasonably be expected to happen.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Hiya Dave - to be honest, it's a bit more basic than that. I happen to believe that 2 handed steering is safer than 1 handed steering in certain circumstances. I respectfully suggest that this can be demonstrated scientifically, and that it is also the method used by acclaimed experts. I (and the experts) also believe that you cannot predict when those circumstances will happen. Therefore I choose to do it at all times, as I want to be prepared for the unexpected (monkeys falling out of tress and all that).
Same with coasting in neutral. I want to be ready IF needed.
The reason you can't relax certain rules is that you cannot know for certain what is going to happen and when. That is why the rules are there in the first place. The reason to follow rules diligently is not blind faith, it is understanding why they are in place.
You may be that one special person that is absolutely fully aware of everything that has happened, is happening, and could possibly happen, and you could get it right 100% every single time without fail. You could be that person. But I doubt it, and I don't think you would claim to be like that. Therefore all that the experts are saying is having both hands on the wheel means you will be more prepared for the unexpected when it happens.
Yes, they could ALL be wrong. Or perhaps not. You decide. Because for you to be right, they have to be wrong.
Regards
Sally
Edited by Lady godiva on Tuesday 25th July 16:13
To consider the question of coasting when approaching the back of a traffic queue.
What I do when out and about and what I do when on an observed run might be two separate things and, as always, depends upon the circumstances.
The most difficult situation I find is coming across a queue for traffic lights, say, on an NSL when you are running in a highish / cruising gear on approach.
Firstly a straight admission that I don't do it right, but I would be looking for any excuse to turn this into consideration as two hazards.
Thus for first hazard having done the information position part I can decide an appropriate reduced speed, for which a lower gear, say 3rd, is demanded. That then gives more flexibility for dealing with the second hazard, namely dealing with the traffic lights and queue, planning to stop but looking to keep vehicle weight rolling, for which 3rd or whatever gear is appropriate and more flexible.
In that stage I keep the lower gear engaged and if I have to stop disengage clutch when speed drops too low which is usually in the final stage of drawing to a halt.
Not correct I know, two changes for one hazard, but it seems more mechanically sympathetic to me.
On another point I have the same trouble as TripleS and really have to concentrate to avoid rolling off the brakes too abruptly once decision is to go.
What I do when out and about and what I do when on an observed run might be two separate things and, as always, depends upon the circumstances.
The most difficult situation I find is coming across a queue for traffic lights, say, on an NSL when you are running in a highish / cruising gear on approach.
Firstly a straight admission that I don't do it right, but I would be looking for any excuse to turn this into consideration as two hazards.
Thus for first hazard having done the information position part I can decide an appropriate reduced speed, for which a lower gear, say 3rd, is demanded. That then gives more flexibility for dealing with the second hazard, namely dealing with the traffic lights and queue, planning to stop but looking to keep vehicle weight rolling, for which 3rd or whatever gear is appropriate and more flexible.
In that stage I keep the lower gear engaged and if I have to stop disengage clutch when speed drops too low which is usually in the final stage of drawing to a halt.
Not correct I know, two changes for one hazard, but it seems more mechanically sympathetic to me.
On another point I have the same trouble as TripleS and really have to concentrate to avoid rolling off the brakes too abruptly once decision is to go.
Hello Sally,
I'm not saying all the experts are wrong, but thanks to some careless wording by me at times some people will have drawn that conclusion, which is not easy to correct, unfortunately. I'm merely suggesting that with care the rules can be relaxed a little in some circumstances, but those who are not comfortable about doing that will presumably stick to what the book says. HTH.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I'm not saying all the experts are wrong, but thanks to some careless wording by me at times some people will have drawn that conclusion, which is not easy to correct, unfortunately. I'm merely suggesting that with care the rules can be relaxed a little in some circumstances, but those who are not comfortable about doing that will presumably stick to what the book says. HTH.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
A couple more words on steering. I use and teach pull push, and certainly two handed steering, but other systems also work well and are taught by many experts world-wide.
I have been to Sweden several times for a winter driving course, basically practising limit handling with studded tyres on ice at fairly high speeds. The experts there (test drivers and Swedish police instructors) teach you to hold the wheel at 25 to 5, and start all movements with an upward push using one hand at a time - this is a variation on a rotational steering technique. The benefits are that you can steer with speed and sensitivity. You can turn the wheel about 330 degrees in a single action. To be fair I have to add that the 'spare' hand needs to be ready to take over when the steering hand reaches its limit - but having seen how well this works makes it difficult to condemn one handed steering.
Penti Airikala (former rally champion who runs a limit handling course in Oxfordshire) argued that using rotational steering you can steer lock to lock in 2 and a half seconds compared to 3 and a half using pull push. Mind you, of course he really believes in steering with the feet and the handbrake!
Many experts including police instructors consider that once you have mastered pull-push it can be useful to have 'other tools in the toolbox' as well. I agree with that.
I have been to Sweden several times for a winter driving course, basically practising limit handling with studded tyres on ice at fairly high speeds. The experts there (test drivers and Swedish police instructors) teach you to hold the wheel at 25 to 5, and start all movements with an upward push using one hand at a time - this is a variation on a rotational steering technique. The benefits are that you can steer with speed and sensitivity. You can turn the wheel about 330 degrees in a single action. To be fair I have to add that the 'spare' hand needs to be ready to take over when the steering hand reaches its limit - but having seen how well this works makes it difficult to condemn one handed steering.
Penti Airikala (former rally champion who runs a limit handling course in Oxfordshire) argued that using rotational steering you can steer lock to lock in 2 and a half seconds compared to 3 and a half using pull push. Mind you, of course he really believes in steering with the feet and the handbrake!
Many experts including police instructors consider that once you have mastered pull-push it can be useful to have 'other tools in the toolbox' as well. I agree with that.
waremark said:
A couple more words on steering. I use and teach pull push, and certainly two handed steering, but other systems also work well and are taught by many experts world-wide.
I have been to Sweden several times for a winter driving course, basically practising limit handling with studded tyres on ice at fairly high speeds. The experts there (test drivers and Swedish police instructors) teach you to hold the wheel at 25 to 5, and start all movements with an upward push using one hand at a time - this is a variation on a rotational steering technique. The benefits are that you can steer with speed and sensitivity. You can turn the wheel about 330 degrees in a single action. To be fair I have to add that the 'spare' hand needs to be ready to take over when the steering hand reaches its limit - but having seen how well this works makes it difficult to condemn one handed steering.
Penti Airikala (former rally champion who runs a limit handling course in Oxfordshire) argued that using rotational steering you can steer lock to lock in 2 and a half seconds compared to 3 and a half using pull push. Mind you, of course he really believes in steering with the feet and the handbrake!.
I have been to Sweden several times for a winter driving course, basically practising limit handling with studded tyres on ice at fairly high speeds. The experts there (test drivers and Swedish police instructors) teach you to hold the wheel at 25 to 5, and start all movements with an upward push using one hand at a time - this is a variation on a rotational steering technique. The benefits are that you can steer with speed and sensitivity. You can turn the wheel about 330 degrees in a single action. To be fair I have to add that the 'spare' hand needs to be ready to take over when the steering hand reaches its limit - but having seen how well this works makes it difficult to condemn one handed steering.
Penti Airikala (former rally champion who runs a limit handling course in Oxfordshire) argued that using rotational steering you can steer lock to lock in 2 and a half seconds compared to 3 and a half using pull push. Mind you, of course he really believes in steering with the feet and the handbrake!.
Hello there Waremark - I agree with a lot of what you are saying. BUT (and its written like that because its a big but) the above does not reflect your average drive in Britain. Also, to be fair, I don't think that is what Dave was referring to (correct me if I'm wrong please Dave).
I think he meant driving under normal road conditions, without exceptional circumstances. So in that case I still believe that Advanced Groups, including the Police, will not accept one hand on the steering wheel.
As I've always been at pains to point out, I don't condemn or criticise Dave for doing what he does. I just dont think that all things are equally acceptable. One handed steering is one of them, for all the reasons given above.
waremark said:
Many experts including police instructors consider that once you have mastered pull-push it can be useful to have 'other tools in the toolbox' as well. I agree with that.
Absolutely, as many tools as possible. BUT (a big one again) I personally don't think they are refering to one handed steerin during a 'normal' drive. By one handed steering I don't mean high speed reverse for the Police (for which there are mechanical reasons) or very slow parking looking tight over the shoulder (for which there are physical reasons). I'm talking about driving along the road as a civilian meeting all appropriate road traffic laws. In this scenario having only one hand on the wheel is regarded as 'not acceptable' for the reasons given. Dave has every right to do it if he wishes, but the Advanced Groups and the Police recommend that he doesn't in the circumstances described.
However, always good to see other points of view. It helps to challenge our own thinking at times, thats the value of these forums. Well done for recommencing the IAM Dave, and I hope it works out whatever you do, and however you do it.
Regards
Sally
Edited by Lady Godiva on Wednesday 26th July 11:26
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