Another IAM/ROSPA/HPC question...
Discussion
Like a few of the other threads here, I'm a little unsure about where to go next. I'm currently on the IAM course, and after 6 sessions I have had a mock test and passed my second opinion. The 2nd opinion was marked all 1's, apart from speeding which gained me a 2 
, however this may mean nothing 
(Is this a local or national marking level? It goes up to 5, 1 being best). From what I gather, I've passed through this quite quickly and whilst I can see my standards have definitly gone up, I havn't found it particularly taxing, apart from limit points 
I have read roadcraft, and my observer knows this. I've also put it into practice where possible. However, I've never formally been taught the system or road positioning, and from this I can only assume I must be subconciously be putting it into practice, judging by the fact the observers think I am good enough. You may think I'm being skeptical here, but from the difficulty level I've felt, the examiner's marking is either off (I don't believe this so), or my driving is a lot better than I think it is (I don't do being positive about myself!). Hence why I feel rather confused.
So, after my test, where should I go? I have seriously contemplated becoming an observer, but at the lowly age of 21, I'm not sure whether I'd fit in or be "mature" enough to coach (I'll do more research into this). There is ROSPA, but I've heard differing opinions of this, some citing too similar to the IAM, some stating more advanced. Above IAM/ROSPA is the HPC course, which is definitly a future goal of mine. At this current moment time though, I don't know whether it's way above my league. Is there anything else I can do in the meantime instead, like the skidpan training at Silverstone? I intend to always progress the standard of my driving, but I don't want to waste time relearning the same stuff!
and breathe...
, however this may mean nothing (Is this a local or national marking level? It goes up to 5, 1 being best). From what I gather, I've passed through this quite quickly and whilst I can see my standards have definitly gone up, I havn't found it particularly taxing, apart from limit points I have read roadcraft, and my observer knows this. I've also put it into practice where possible. However, I've never formally been taught the system or road positioning, and from this I can only assume I must be subconciously be putting it into practice, judging by the fact the observers think I am good enough. You may think I'm being skeptical here, but from the difficulty level I've felt, the examiner's marking is either off (I don't believe this so), or my driving is a lot better than I think it is (I don't do being positive about myself!). Hence why I feel rather confused.
So, after my test, where should I go? I have seriously contemplated becoming an observer, but at the lowly age of 21, I'm not sure whether I'd fit in or be "mature" enough to coach (I'll do more research into this). There is ROSPA, but I've heard differing opinions of this, some citing too similar to the IAM, some stating more advanced. Above IAM/ROSPA is the HPC course, which is definitly a future goal of mine. At this current moment time though, I don't know whether it's way above my league. Is there anything else I can do in the meantime instead, like the skidpan training at Silverstone? I intend to always progress the standard of my driving, but I don't want to waste time relearning the same stuff!
and breathe...
I had similar choices when I was 22. I had done IAM, but wanted something more. I did the HPC 1/2 day course and it simply blew me away. I had no idea, none whatsoever, what could really be achieved in a car. My HPC co-driver told me I was good enough (just!) to go onto the HPC 2 day course itself, and so a couple of months later I did just that. It was an amazing experience - extremely challenging but rewarding in equal measure.
After that I joined the Club and for the past 15 years have never looked back. I have continued to enjoy professional coaching during that period from various people, including the HPC co-drivers (such as Hugh and Don more recently), but have also had the pleasure of learning from fellow Club members.
The HPC course is not cheap, but good things rarely are!
Personally, I would recommend signing up for the half day and see where you go from there. I don't think you can start too early!
Feel free to PM me if you'd like further details.
Kind regards
Steve
After that I joined the Club and for the past 15 years have never looked back. I have continued to enjoy professional coaching during that period from various people, including the HPC co-drivers (such as Hugh and Don more recently), but have also had the pleasure of learning from fellow Club members.
The HPC course is not cheap, but good things rarely are!
Personally, I would recommend signing up for the half day and see where you go from there. I don't think you can start too early!
Feel free to PM me if you'd like further details.
Kind regards
Steve
stefan1 said:
I had similar choices when I was 22.
Me too... I was cogniscent of the fact that I was Michael Schumacher's illegitimate, but more talented, twin brother so pitched up at HPC. I seem to recall that I was planning on getting a Caterham 7 and wanted to not have to repair it due to my own talent outstripping the car.
Fifteen minutes later, after a demonstration from the wizened old git (anyone older than 30 at that age is a wizened old git), I realised that I was sadly deluded. Thirteen years later, I now work for the wizened old git helping to bring through the next generation.
I'd recommend HPC rather than IAM/RoADAR every time if you're a real driving enthusiast. Steve's pretty much given all the benefits.
Don't worry about your age, I did IAM at 17 and passed, and RoSPA and 18 and got gold, then simultaneously tried a Police Class 1 that had setup on his own and HPC, I did HPC once and never went back (John Lyon) as I didn't feel it was as safe as what the Class 1 was teaching me.
So worth trying a few options and seeing what you like the most/feel is best for you.
So worth trying a few options and seeing what you like the most/feel is best for you.
omegac said:
I did HPC once and never went back (John Lyon) as I didn't feel it was as safe as what the Class 1 was teaching me.
Interesting you should say that, I thought it was just me.
Of all the Class 1 drivers that I have been driven by, John Lyon is the only one who actually scared me. I did the "half-day first drive" with him some years ago and duly took on board the changes that he advised (despite my not liking his demo drive) and went away and practiced. When I next got the chance to go back to the driving school at Sussex Police HQ the difference in my driving was noted and they asked who had taught me these things, and more importantly why? I then spent some time un-learning the Lyon advice.
In my experience, people tend to rant and rave about John Lyon in pretty equal measure. I have had many truly exceptional drives with him (and, to be fair, he drove me pretty well too 
).
However, John's experience and ability allowed him to drive to a level that passengers may have found disconcerting - if the passenger doesn't understand what the driver is doing, it's reasonable for them to feel uncomfortable. I've had similar experiences when driven by Class 1 instructors - all great drivers, but the difference in approach left me uncomfortable.
Having said all that, the key point in this discussion is a simple one - John is no longer associated with HPC.
). However, John's experience and ability allowed him to drive to a level that passengers may have found disconcerting - if the passenger doesn't understand what the driver is doing, it's reasonable for them to feel uncomfortable. I've had similar experiences when driven by Class 1 instructors - all great drivers, but the difference in approach left me uncomfortable.
Having said all that, the key point in this discussion is a simple one - John is no longer associated with HPC.
willibetz said:
However, John's experience and ability allowed him to drive to a level that passengers may have found disconcerting - if the passenger doesn't understand what the driver is doing, it's reasonable for them to feel uncomfortable.
If John had been my only instructor I would agree with you, but having been taught by, and now working with, many Class 1's, I have never felt that way with police drivers.
I felt that John was a frustrated racing driver, trying to take his track techniques onto the road, where as I was more used to police drivers teaching safety as a priority.
omegac said:
I felt that John was a frustrated racing driver, trying to take his track techniques onto the road, where as I was more used to police drivers teaching safety as a priority.
As I say, people tend to rant or rave about John's style and ability. On the basis of your first and only drive with him, your choice to look elsewhere was undoubtedly wise. As Hendon and latterly other government agencies employed John as a civilian instructor, I guess they had a higher regard for his abilities.
omegac said:
John Lyon, Police Class 1, not as far as I know he wasn't.
Really? I had always assumed (yes, I know... ass - u - me) that being an instructor at Hendon he held a Class 1. If he didn't then I am quite happy to be corrected. From a purely personal standpoint that puts my experience with him into a perspective that feel more comfortable with. I have no doubt that John is a very talented driver but I just didn't feel comfortable with him in the same way that I felt totally at ease with the other Police Instructors I have driven with.
willibetz said:
As Hendon and latterly other government agencies employed John as a civilian instructor, I guess they had a higher regard for his abilities.
I don't think the regard needed to be that high to work at Hendon teaching novice courses, if he had been teaching advanced I'd have agreed with you
mefoster said:
Really? I had always assumed (yes, I know... ass - u - me) that being an instructor at Hendon he held a Class 1.
From what I have heard it is not an assumption that he challenges too vigorously
mefoster said:
I just didn't feel comfortable with him in the same way that I felt totally at ease with the other Police Instructors I have driven with.
Agreed.
omegac said:
Really? I had always assumed (yes, I know... ass - u - me) that being an instructor at Hendon he held a Class 1.
From what I have heard it is not an assumption that he challenges too vigorously
mefoster said:
I just didn't feel comfortable with him in the same way that I felt totally at ease with the other Police Instructors I have driven with.
Agreed.
To clear up any doubt, there was a single course held at the tail end of the 1960s, whereby civilian instructors did the advanced, to Class I level. John was on that intial course, as was Hugh Noblett. The course cost too much money and was never repeated. So AFAIK John did take the advanced course, although I don't know whether he got a I or a II. John wasn't at Hendon very long after that and returned to BSM to work with John Miles at the HPC end of things. Hugh stayed at Hendon for the thick end of twenty years.
Ah, all good stuff, thanks chaps. I'll attempt the ROSPA test, just to tick another box, but I'll mainly look at the HPC. Is there likely to be anything needed in preparation for the gatekeeping courses, or can I just jump on the Master Drivers course (or Don, whoevers closer!) from IAM?
Regarding John Lyon and feeling scared, I thought one of the objectives of advanced driving was that passengers felt more comfortable? Surely not in this case!
Regarding John Lyon and feeling scared, I thought one of the objectives of advanced driving was that passengers felt more comfortable? Surely not in this case!
StressedDave said:
To clear up any doubt, there was a single course held at the tail end of the 1960s, whereby civilian instructors did the advanced, to Class I level.
I will bow to your knowledge Dave, but I have to say, the drive I saw from John was not an advanced police drive, it was more of a racing driver bringing those techniques to the road.
xiphias said:
Ah, all good stuff, thanks chaps. I'll attempt the ROSPA test, just to tick another box, but I'll mainly look at the HPC. Is there likely to be anything needed in preparation for the gatekeeping courses, or can I just jump on the Master Drivers course (or Don, whoevers closer!) from IAM?
Regarding John Lyon and feeling scared, I thought one of the objectives of advanced driving was that passengers felt more comfortable? Surely not in this case!
I can't speak for Don (obviously) but there's nothing stopping you, other than ability. We structure the MDC so that the first half-day is an assessment of where you are and whether you'll successfully complete the remaining two days.
Have a gander at the entry strandards for the Club at www.hpc.org.uk/standards and work out where you are. Many people get into the Club without ever darkening the doors of either the IAM or RoADAR but there's no such thing as wasted training. My only advice is that technique with the controls is significantly less important than observation and planning, so if you find you're spending a lot of concentration on getting the 'style' of steering right then thats something you'll have to address.
StressedDave said:
Really? I had always assumed (yes, I know... ass - u - me) that being an instructor at Hendon he held a Class 1.
From what I have heard it is not an assumption that he challenges too vigorously
mefoster said:
I just didn't feel comfortable with him in the same way that I felt totally at ease with the other Police Instructors I have driven with.
Agreed.
To clear up any doubt, there was a single course held at the tail end of the 1960s, whereby civilian instructors did the advanced, to Class I level. John was on that intial course, as was Hugh Noblett. The course cost too much money and was never repeated. So AFAIK John did take the advanced course, although I don't know whether he got a I or a II. John wasn't at Hendon very long after that and returned to BSM to work with John Miles at the HPC end of things. Hugh stayed at Hendon for the thick end of twenty years.
StressedDave
Did Hugh get a Class 1?
Does this mean that John/Hugh were allowed to teach/instruct up to Class 1 standard?
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