Only Signal when needed

[GreenV8S]

mefoster said:

I understand the distinction that you have made perfectly. I just happen to disagree that there is any substantive difference.

I assume from this that you did actually read my description of the different consequences from these two strategies, but you're dismissing them all without any explanation.

[mefoster]

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer.

[Chumpers]

Big Fat F'er said:

As you know we try and help the more naive drivers like yourself get a head start. So, to assist you in your never ending quest for self enlightenment (let's face it, its easier for you, you can only improve), I can recommend the following books as being suitable for you at your current level.

Roadcraft - the Police Foundation
Expert Driving the Police Way - John Miles
Expert Driving - Peter Ripley
Mind Driving - Stephen Haley
The Highway Code & Know Your Traffic Signs
Janet and John books 1, 2 and 3.
Rupert Bear Drives Out.
Signalling for Dummies.

I have just re-read a 1970s Janet and John book. The book states, "Janet, Janet. Come and Look. See the little dog". I think that answers all my questions about signalling.

Does anyone have a copy of Rupert Bear Drives Out I can borrow?

[willibetz]

Roadcraft Chapter 6 P.93 said:

Only give a signal when another road user will benefit from it

Perhaps this sentence depends on its context to make sense - I can't check as my copy of new Roadcraft is on loan. However, taken in isolation, I wonder how it applies to a horn warning considered because a hazard affords no view of other road users?

WilliBetz

Edited by willibetz on Monday 6th November 12:04

[ATG]

mefoster said:

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer.

In which you didn't attempt to answer a straightforward question. The jury are bound to draw a conclusion from that ...

[Big Fat F'er]

willibetz said:

Roadcraft Chapter 6 P.93 said:

Only give a signal when another road user will benefit from it

Perhaps this sentence depends on its context to make sense - I can't check as my copy of new Roadcraft is on loan. However, taken in isolation, I wonder how it applies to a horn warning considered because a hazard affords no view of other road users?

WilliBetz

Edited by willibetz on Monday 6th November 12:04

The 'Roadcraft' methodology advises that the horn is used where visibility is restricted. You don't have to see the road user. Examples are given in the book and on the training courses, and these cover things like severe bends with narrowing of the roads, humpback bridges, etc.

If your position on the road may bring you into contact with another road user and there is no visibility available to verify that they are not present, and a horn is applicable, then warn potential users via the horn.

BFF

[willibetz]

Big Fat F'er said:

willibetz said:

Roadcraft Chapter 6 P.93 said:

Only give a signal when another road user will benefit from it

Perhaps this sentence depends on its context to make sense - I can't check as my copy of new Roadcraft is on loan. However, taken in isolation, I wonder how it applies to a horn warning considered because a hazard affords no view of other road users?

WilliBetz

Edited by willibetz on Monday 6th November 12:04

The 'Roadcraft' methodology advises that the horn is used where visibility is restricted. You don't have to see the road user. Examples are given in the book and on the training courses, and these cover things like severe bends with narrowing of the roads, humpback bridges, etc.

If your position on the road may bring you into contact with another road user and there is no visibility available to verify that they are not present, and a horn is applicable, then warn potential users via the horn.

BFF

So in the latest revision of Roadcraft, either the horn is a special case or it's no longer regarded as a signal.

If it is a signal (as it was in the 60's editions), and we take the instruction "Only give a signal when another road user will benefit from it" literally, then it would be incorrect to use the horn before another road user hoves into view (or stoves in your bonnet, but that might be regarded as too late, or even retaliatory).

Perhaps a case for promoting the alternative view "Give a signal when another road user might benefit from it, giving due consideration to whether the signal could be ambiguous or confusing". But then again, perhaps not. If the devil is in the detail, perhaps the fun is in the shades of grey.

WilliBetz

[Big Fat F'er]

willibetz said:

If the devil is in the detail, perhaps the fun is in the shades of grey.

Willibetz - Oh how true. How very very true.

All I can say is that devotees of the System, trained to Roadcraft, under guidance and observation, including study, discussions and examination, are taught to:

Indicate (indicator light/arm out of window/trafficator) - when another road user will benefit by seeing it. This is because it is a visual system.

Horn - when another road user would benefit from hearing it BUT the road user may not yet be seen, due to reduced visibility. This is because it is an audible signal.

The difference is that one has to be seen, so demands line of sight. The other has to be heard, so does not need line of sight.

Alternatively, use the horn as most do, which is as a reprimand. Extremely reduced vision bringing increased risk, no horn. Big numb numpty in a van cuts you up, loud blast. Very wise.

BFF

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Tuesday 7th November 20:28

[GreenV8S]

I would generalise it to "give a signal if and when the likely benefits outweigh the likely disbenefits". That term 'likely' covers the probability of people perceiving the signal, the probability of them interpreting it correctly or incorrectly, and the possible consequences in either case.

[PC vrach]

slowly slowly said:

vonhosen said:

richa said:

slowly slowly said:

Went down the dual carraigeway yesterday following a small car, I slotted in behind in good time, eased off and signal left like I said in good time.
The car in front starts to indicate right but stays in the left lane, luckily nothing was approaching in the right hand lane, she entered the roundabout from the same lane (left lane) still indicating right, then she changed it for a left indication and ended up going straight on.


Not seen that one before.

There is a particular roundabout in Swindon where I will do the same.

The correct lane for straight on (which is 2nd exit) is the left lane, but if you stay in the left lane as you drive around the r'about (most people do racing line), it appears to the person waiting at 1st exit/entry that you are taking the 1st exit, and they pull out. Indicating right even though you are in the left lane going straight on shows them you are not turning off.

The need, value or benefit of a signal, should be considered in each individual set of circumstance before giving it.

Richa, two wrongs don't make a right, If you are going straight on at a roundabout it sounds to me like your road positioning is wrong.

Turning left use the left lane signal left.
Turning right use the right lane signal right.
Straight on use either lane signal left when you are "ready" to leave.

If you are going straight on and some one comes on and hits you its their fault, If you approach the roundabout in the left lane (as I discribed )whilst signaling right you may cause a collision behind you from some one that brakes suddenly thinking you are going to actually turn right.
It sounds to me that you are hanging too much to the left, If I was the car at the junction waiting to come on I would be looking at the car and the driver, try looking for your exit instead of the left turn.
Can I add I spend all my working hours behind the wheel and I honestly cannot remember the last time this scenario happened to me.

Just to clarify that last comment, of course I mean where some one has pulled on to the roundabout when I'm going straight on without signalling.

Hi sorry I am a little late adding to this. The error being made here (and an understandable on is that you are going straight on. You are not. It is a roundabout and as such is curved. You can be going straight ahead, but straight on puts you in the grassy bit in the middle. As you are going around the roundabout you can indicate to go right and then indicate to go left immediately after passing the junction before the one you need. I wouldn't myself as I think it could confuse others in the right hand lanes, but technically it is not wrong. At least it shows some thought process.