Commentary DVD
Discussion
Just received the commentary DVD from Cadence. Tips already picked up are:
1) ah ha, so that's how I'm supposed to be doing it.
2) excellent, use 2 words instead of 5.
3) concentrate on everything, only until the immediate hazard appears.
4) use the horn, considerately.
5) take up a bold position where appropriate.
6) take particular notice of the elderly.
7) it's not only us women who can talk for an hour without interuption!
Etc. etc. It is ridiculous value, I think it's something like £15 including postage and packing. Really interesting to watch and learn.
Regards
Sally
1) ah ha, so that's how I'm supposed to be doing it.
2) excellent, use 2 words instead of 5.
3) concentrate on everything, only until the immediate hazard appears.
4) use the horn, considerately.
5) take up a bold position where appropriate.
6) take particular notice of the elderly.
7) it's not only us women who can talk for an hour without interuption!
Etc. etc. It is ridiculous value, I think it's something like £15 including postage and packing. Really interesting to watch and learn.
Regards
Sally
Kinky said:
ohhh .... is that available to anyone? Or just doing the course? K
It's available to anyone. Just give them a call to make sure it's in stock. I think the best thing about it is that it demonstrates a 'good' drive, to Advanced standards. Not ridiculously fast, but always safe. I know that's obvious, but it's not about learning WHAT to say, rather it's understanding why.
Regards
Sally
P.S. I may eventually do the HPC, but not yet. I'm only just getting my head around understanding heel and toe!
Some advice I posted elsewhere about commentary that may be of use here.
You shouldn't slow the drive down to fit the commentary in, you should prioritise in the commentary to fit it to the drive. Break it down into must talk abouts, should talk abouts & could talk abouts. Don't be talking about a could when there is a must present. You can then fill in with coulds when you have spare time.
Slowing the drive to fit the commentary in, could be indicative of low/mid ground vision & will be revealed in your commentary, because you will only be talking about things when you are almost on top of them.
The faster you go the punchier & more accurate (fewer words to describe same event) you have to be.
As you come out of a hazard don't slowly lift your vision & then start to talk about the first thing you see & then repeat that scenario for the next hazard. This stilts your progress.
Lift your vision to the furthest point you can see on the road as you exit the hazard (& not talk about the first thing they see), rapidly scan it back, prioritise & sell for the biggest problem. Work the vision to the distance & back, distance & back while prioritising what you are going to sell in the commentary. If your vision is far enough forward you may actually visit the hazard a couple of times in the commenatry within those back & forth scans before you even get to it.
That way you sell the plan for the hazard, but you can actually accelerate towards it while doing it. You never arrive at it while still talking about it, because when you are in that hazard you are actually selling the system for the next one in the distance, so on & so forth. That way you keep progress going.
In order to do this effectively you will need to build up a database of stock phrases so that you are not found searching for words.
Common examples are
(on entering 30's) Entering a built up area (mirror), expecting to see an increase in vehicular & pedestrian activity, with numerous junctions left & right which I will mention if active.
Next time you enter you can be briefer still (ie - Entering a built up area (mirror) with associated hazards mentioned previously.)
(approaching a roundabout) Approaching a roundabout (mirror) with (number of) exits. Expecting brake lights from vehicle infront, planning to stop looking to go with the first danger from the right.
You also want to display your observation , anticipation & planning by using the words expecting , anticipating , looking for, they could etc.
Don't underestimate the importance of selling mirror work either.
Every action should be preceeded by Mirror
ie. Mirror positioning to the nearside OR mirror gentle brakes.
Hazards should be followed by mirror ( & what you expect if you can)
ie. hump back bridge , mirror , expecting one towards in the middle of the road.
The mirrors are the skeleton that holds it all together.
The selling of the system is the meaty flesh.
The anticipation & plan is the skin on top.
(No or insufficient mirror work & it becomes a mush)
It is the commentary, if used really well in advanced driving, that can be the window to your thought processes for others. It can clearly display more than anything the degree of observation , anticipation & planning that goes into your drive & when you become comfortable enough with it, you will find you are actually talking yourself into action in good time, because when you say it, you will do it.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 15th April 20:17
You shouldn't slow the drive down to fit the commentary in, you should prioritise in the commentary to fit it to the drive. Break it down into must talk abouts, should talk abouts & could talk abouts. Don't be talking about a could when there is a must present. You can then fill in with coulds when you have spare time.
Slowing the drive to fit the commentary in, could be indicative of low/mid ground vision & will be revealed in your commentary, because you will only be talking about things when you are almost on top of them.
The faster you go the punchier & more accurate (fewer words to describe same event) you have to be.
As you come out of a hazard don't slowly lift your vision & then start to talk about the first thing you see & then repeat that scenario for the next hazard. This stilts your progress.
Lift your vision to the furthest point you can see on the road as you exit the hazard (& not talk about the first thing they see), rapidly scan it back, prioritise & sell for the biggest problem. Work the vision to the distance & back, distance & back while prioritising what you are going to sell in the commentary. If your vision is far enough forward you may actually visit the hazard a couple of times in the commenatry within those back & forth scans before you even get to it.
That way you sell the plan for the hazard, but you can actually accelerate towards it while doing it. You never arrive at it while still talking about it, because when you are in that hazard you are actually selling the system for the next one in the distance, so on & so forth. That way you keep progress going.
In order to do this effectively you will need to build up a database of stock phrases so that you are not found searching for words.
Common examples are
(on entering 30's) Entering a built up area (mirror), expecting to see an increase in vehicular & pedestrian activity, with numerous junctions left & right which I will mention if active.
Next time you enter you can be briefer still (ie - Entering a built up area (mirror) with associated hazards mentioned previously.)
(approaching a roundabout) Approaching a roundabout (mirror) with (number of) exits. Expecting brake lights from vehicle infront, planning to stop looking to go with the first danger from the right.
You also want to display your observation , anticipation & planning by using the words expecting , anticipating , looking for, they could etc.
Don't underestimate the importance of selling mirror work either.
Every action should be preceeded by Mirror
ie. Mirror positioning to the nearside OR mirror gentle brakes.
Hazards should be followed by mirror ( & what you expect if you can)
ie. hump back bridge , mirror , expecting one towards in the middle of the road.
The mirrors are the skeleton that holds it all together.
The selling of the system is the meaty flesh.
The anticipation & plan is the skin on top.
(No or insufficient mirror work & it becomes a mush)
It is the commentary, if used really well in advanced driving, that can be the window to your thought processes for others. It can clearly display more than anything the degree of observation , anticipation & planning that goes into your drive & when you become comfortable enough with it, you will find you are actually talking yourself into action in good time, because when you say it, you will do it.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 15th April 20:17
Excellent stuff Von - LG should try and follow this.
If I may just emphasise something that you have already covered, but is worth double stating. Some associates get worried 'cos they can't remember what to say. This is indicative of a bit more learning.
Your hump backed bridge is a perfect example. The words say what you should be doing as an 'Advanced' driver. Therefore if you are doing it, you can say it. If you have to try and learn what to say, it's showing that you are probably not doing it (if that makes sense).
Also, the bit about mutiple junctions being mentioned if active is spot on. So many novices drive down the road mentioning every junction, regardless of whether they are active are not. A simple 30mph zone may have 30 or 40 junctions... thats a heck of a lot of mentions.
Your Ladyship - you would do well to follow VH's advice. You could always practise it on the way to do the shopping, or picking the laundery up, or pehaps a coffee morning.
If I may just emphasise something that you have already covered, but is worth double stating. Some associates get worried 'cos they can't remember what to say. This is indicative of a bit more learning.
Your hump backed bridge is a perfect example. The words say what you should be doing as an 'Advanced' driver. Therefore if you are doing it, you can say it. If you have to try and learn what to say, it's showing that you are probably not doing it (if that makes sense).
Also, the bit about mutiple junctions being mentioned if active is spot on. So many novices drive down the road mentioning every junction, regardless of whether they are active are not. A simple 30mph zone may have 30 or 40 junctions... thats a heck of a lot of mentions.
Your Ladyship - you would do well to follow VH's advice. You could always practise it on the way to do the shopping, or picking the laundery up, or pehaps a coffee morning.
Hollywood Wheels said:
You could always practise it on the way to do the shopping, or picking the laundery up, or pehaps a coffee morning.
You really should have put a
at the end of that BFF or you're going to get into a lot of trouble!!!!
No way Hollywood. I'm still amazed that Lady G is having trouble talking...the ones I've met have trouble shutting up!!!
By the way, I'm gonna spend more time here and on General Gassing. You know it makes sense
7db said:
Ordered mine today.
Mr 7db - have you received it yet, and if so, what did you think. I keep watching a bit, and learning a bit more.
Not only that, I've found Hugh and the team (Susie, Pete et al) very helpful whether on the phone or via e-mail. Quite refreshing in this day of poor customer service.
vonhosen said:
Don't underestimate the importance of selling mirror work either. Every action should be preceeded by Mirror ... Hazards should be followed by mirror ( & what you expect if you can) ie. hump back bridge , mirror , expecting one towards in the middle of the road.
The mirrors are the skeleton that holds it all together.
The selling of the system is the meaty flesh.
The anticipation & plan is the skin on top.
(No or insufficient mirror work & it becomes a mush)
Mirrors are the skeleton? Why? Shouldn't the System be the skeleton that holds it all together?
Obviously I agree that mirror checks are very important. So are the other types of rear observation, such as shoulder checks and lifesavers. However, rear observations are just one aspect of the Information phase.
Didn't we have a post about this very subject a little while ago, discussing how mirror work can sometimes be over-sold in "entry-level" advanced driving?
Yes shoulder checks etc are in with the mirror checks, but if you are using a systematic approach that has information before any action, can you change position or speed without having updated & checked the information phase (mirror) first & still remain systematic ?
Isn't signal before mirror, for instance, unsystematic ?
Are we going to talk about advanced driving in terms of "entry level" only or are we going to talk in terms of a high level ?
We should still be looking for the same competencies in all levels because it's essentially the same activity. Just that the lower the standard you are looking to achieve, the more forgiving the marking will be in how often & how far you are allowed to fall from the defining line of a perfect drive. Of course there will still be much smaller room for movement from the defining line in relation to safety, with whatever standard you judge to, because it is of paramount importance & mirror work features in both of the first two S's (Safety & System).
>> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 27th April 06:57
Isn't signal before mirror, for instance, unsystematic ?
Are we going to talk about advanced driving in terms of "entry level" only or are we going to talk in terms of a high level ?
We should still be looking for the same competencies in all levels because it's essentially the same activity. Just that the lower the standard you are looking to achieve, the more forgiving the marking will be in how often & how far you are allowed to fall from the defining line of a perfect drive. Of course there will still be much smaller room for movement from the defining line in relation to safety, with whatever standard you judge to, because it is of paramount importance & mirror work features in both of the first two S's (Safety & System).
>> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 27th April 06:57
In the strict sense, the system demands an information phase (giving and receiving) and mirrors and signals both fit in this.
If you know that you are going to signal, do you need to mirror prior to signalling?
I'm fairly sure I don't always check mirrors prior to a horn signal for the pedestrian about to step out into the road looking the other way. (But I suppose I probably would prior to braking which I would likely be doing next...)
If you know that you are going to signal, do you need to mirror prior to signalling?
I'm fairly sure I don't always check mirrors prior to a horn signal for the pedestrian about to step out into the road looking the other way. (But I suppose I probably would prior to braking which I would likely be doing next...)
7db said:
In the strict sense, the system demands an information phase (giving and receiving) and mirrors and signals both fit in this.
If you know that you are going to signal, do you need to mirror prior to signalling?
I'm fairly sure I don't always check mirrors prior to a horn signal for the pedestrian about to step out into the road looking the other way. (But I suppose I probably would prior to braking which I would likely be doing next...)
The information phase doesn't demand that you just take, use or give information in isolation, it demands that you consider all three.
You do need to check the mirror if you are going to be systematic, accurate & not blanket signal.
You should on seeing the pedestrian mirror and then do to be systematic.
Of course the 4S's within roadcraft dictates that safety is of prior importance to system and as such we are allowed to compromise the system where safety requires it. But that doesn't mean it would change the action of horn before mirror from unsystematic to systematic. It would instead mean you compromised system for safety & the better or more accurate you are the less likely it is you would have to compromise the system to still retain safety.
This is of course because ultimately we should be aiming to be Safe, Systematic, Smooth & Make decent progress within allowed limits. The best drivers will retain the greatest accuracy around all of those (including always being systematic around mirrors or horn notes etc.)
When we bring OAP into the equation as well, we don't have to wait until we see the actual hazard to use the mirror for something, we can pre-empt the need for the mirror with anticipation of, an as yet unseen hazard, by recognsising where they may be & then have already just done that mirror so that we can act in a systematic manner still to what appears that fraction of a second later.
For instance, immeadiately before I enter a loss of vision I check the mirror so that I can brake if something is blocking the road (having just done the mirror check) & still remain systematic, rather than not checking the mirror immeadiately before entry, going straight to the brake to on seeing the blockage & then then followed by mirror (which would be unsystematic & instead relying on compromising the system for safety). At the sametime this will be showing a lack of anticipation in planning towards possible adverse outcomes within the loss of vision on approach to it.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 27th April 07:22
Hi again,
Vonhosen - You can check out the full discussion here:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.
See what you think.
Cheers
StressedDave said:
2. Way too much emphasis on mirrors - a lot of people use peripheral vision to work their mirror checks, i.e. a change in the view from peripheral vision triggers the mirror check itself. If you're forcing an associate to physically check their mirrors on such a regular basis you're limiting the amount of processing power they can use to observe out front where it's most important and apply the system to their view. I'm a great believer in teaching little but feeding back lots - letting people develop their own mental system to apply the System is far, far more important than ramming Roadcraft home at every possible opportunity.
(snip)
Remember Advanced Driving is an art and not a science. There is no universal formula that can be applied to every possible situation and give the appropriate outcome. Rather than teaching people to slavishly follow the system, you should be concentrating on getting them to think about what they should do.
Vonhosen - You can check out the full discussion here:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.
See what you think.
Cheers
Oi Mark, stop stirring the 
von has a specific role which is to make sure that those people he trains drive to a consistent system within an ever-decreasing timeframe for the ability and knowledge to be absorbed. This means that they have to be taught almost by rote if you like - and that's probably a demeaning and very poor way of describing the process. Here we're talking about enthusiast drivers.
Enthusiast drivers have plenty of time to develop those skills a little more naturally and so can produce the same sort of results in a different way - to stretch the point a little, they should be doing mirror checks when they need to be doing mirror checks and not when they are told to do mirror checks.
>> Edited by StressedDave on Tuesday 2nd May 17:26
von has a specific role which is to make sure that those people he trains drive to a consistent system within an ever-decreasing timeframe for the ability and knowledge to be absorbed. This means that they have to be taught almost by rote if you like - and that's probably a demeaning and very poor way of describing the process. Here we're talking about enthusiast drivers.
Enthusiast drivers have plenty of time to develop those skills a little more naturally and so can produce the same sort of results in a different way - to stretch the point a little, they should be doing mirror checks when they need to be doing mirror checks and not when they are told to do mirror checks.
>> Edited by StressedDave on Tuesday 2nd May 17:26
I had a look through the thread.
I am certainly not suggesting that the mirror is at the expense of taking in information from anywhere else. I am talking about a level of performance & competence where the number of mirror checks I am talking about is within the comfortable performance of the driver & compliments the drive not hindering it. The system, is however the system & by it's nature is prescriptive in what you must do in what order to a large degree. If someone wants to take what they want from the system & use that in their own system, then so be it. There is no compulsion on them to drive to roadcraft's teachings, it wasn't written for them. Police officers will drive to it's teachings because the Police service is in a position to be more prescriptive & compelling. If they don't apply & comply with the set standards, they won't drive Police cars.
If two drivers can take in all the relevant visual information from the horizon back, laterally & peripherally without differing performance, is the one who can also perform the consistant systematic mirror (shoulder & blind spot) checks I am also describing, hindering their drive at all ? Or are they outperforming another who doesn't feel they can perform those mirror checks as described, without it compromising their ability to take information elsewhere ? What harm are those mirror checks actually doing ? Do they mean that by having that reflex check in relation to stimulae ( & it not adversely affecting the drive) that they will never miss an important change behind ?
What criteria is the other driver using for when to check the mirror ?
Is it merely based on time ?
Is that truely systematic ?
Is that based in how much is happening ahead ?
If that is the case, will it lead at times to delays in rear checks that could compromise safety (when we describe what happens in the rear view as an ever changing picture) ?
We all come from different places with what we are expecting of an "advanced driver", but that would be natural. Only people who are expecting the same things & are applying the same standards, will be thinking of advanced driving on the same terms. In order to do that when we think of advanced driving, it would have to mean the same performance criteria, expected standards & test standards. In short we would have to be in the same club. There is after all no one standard that is advanced driving, so naturally that will differ where we are not in the same club & outside of that we would only share ideas about our own thoughts on the subject.
I am not saying which clubs have the best standards etc & to make any meaningful judgement on that, we would have to be members of all the clubs so that we would have current direct experience to relate of each.
To some people advanced driving will be a few hours with somebody else who holds an advanced classification with some driving body.
To others it will be a lifetime devoted to improvement in driving skill.
And there will be a huge variation in between, with some groups focusing on some aspects more than others.
I come from a school where things in some ways are quite prescriptive (from need), but this doesn't mean that individuality is totally crushed & can't be expressed within the driving.
There are many things in that school that may seem very anal to outsiders in the way they are prescribed, but is not done so without good reason. It is done because experience shows that it offers the candidates the most reliable way to perform consistantly in very trying circumstances. Under pressure we revert to type & do what comes naturally. So under pressure we want the natural way to be one that offers the greatest consistency in the act, for the greatest number of people.
To that end little things like gear grip can become very important. I have seen numerous times where candidates are shown the best practice way & told why. They don't consistantly use that method, but over many hours it hasn't caused them great problem. They have done hundreds of gear changes & it not resulted in an incorrect gear change. However bring on extra pressure with very trying circumstances & they make a simple mistake that is directly attributable to the reliability of their chosen method (as was explained to them). It then results in a safety issue at a critical moment & their world falls apart over essentially something very simple that most people would give very little thought to. There are limited time frames in which to instill these processes in the candidates.
So it is with mirrors. Where I am coming from intentional distraction lays ahead & someone wants to divert your scans from behind. I am less concerned about danger ahead, because I can stay away from it. I will back myself to see & deal with it. I can't however stop danger behind getting closer where it is travelling quicker than me & that concerns me more because I have less control over it & therefore view it as a greater potential risk.
If I can then carry those principles into every day driving & can deal with everything ahead whilst always knowing exactly what is behind & how quick it is closing, does that not make me safer ?
The prescribed way of mirror use I am talking about means you will be so equipped. Because it becomes a reflex action to stimulae, it won't ever be missed at that crucial moment irrespective of what grabs your attention ahead. It offers total consistency & no nasty surprises (which we should all be trying to avoid in our driving).
I'm not force feeding this to anyone, only offering my advice of what in my experience provides greatest consistency in even the most exceptional circumstances. Each person must do as they see fit & according to their individual needs & ability levels. Of course one big plus in what I am saying, means that you should never get caught out by a white/silver car with bar lights closing on you quickly, you'll see it coming from a long way off
Ultimately be safe, don't get caught out by the changing picture behind & do what works reliably for you. If you do ever get caught out (in relation to anything) then examine what may have lead to that, learn from it & address it so it doesn't happen again.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Friday 28th April 06:50
I am certainly not suggesting that the mirror is at the expense of taking in information from anywhere else. I am talking about a level of performance & competence where the number of mirror checks I am talking about is within the comfortable performance of the driver & compliments the drive not hindering it. The system, is however the system & by it's nature is prescriptive in what you must do in what order to a large degree. If someone wants to take what they want from the system & use that in their own system, then so be it. There is no compulsion on them to drive to roadcraft's teachings, it wasn't written for them. Police officers will drive to it's teachings because the Police service is in a position to be more prescriptive & compelling. If they don't apply & comply with the set standards, they won't drive Police cars.
If two drivers can take in all the relevant visual information from the horizon back, laterally & peripherally without differing performance, is the one who can also perform the consistant systematic mirror (shoulder & blind spot) checks I am also describing, hindering their drive at all ? Or are they outperforming another who doesn't feel they can perform those mirror checks as described, without it compromising their ability to take information elsewhere ? What harm are those mirror checks actually doing ? Do they mean that by having that reflex check in relation to stimulae ( & it not adversely affecting the drive) that they will never miss an important change behind ?
What criteria is the other driver using for when to check the mirror ?
Is it merely based on time ?
Is that truely systematic ?
Is that based in how much is happening ahead ?
If that is the case, will it lead at times to delays in rear checks that could compromise safety (when we describe what happens in the rear view as an ever changing picture) ?
We all come from different places with what we are expecting of an "advanced driver", but that would be natural. Only people who are expecting the same things & are applying the same standards, will be thinking of advanced driving on the same terms. In order to do that when we think of advanced driving, it would have to mean the same performance criteria, expected standards & test standards. In short we would have to be in the same club. There is after all no one standard that is advanced driving, so naturally that will differ where we are not in the same club & outside of that we would only share ideas about our own thoughts on the subject.
I am not saying which clubs have the best standards etc & to make any meaningful judgement on that, we would have to be members of all the clubs so that we would have current direct experience to relate of each.
To some people advanced driving will be a few hours with somebody else who holds an advanced classification with some driving body.
To others it will be a lifetime devoted to improvement in driving skill.
And there will be a huge variation in between, with some groups focusing on some aspects more than others.
I come from a school where things in some ways are quite prescriptive (from need), but this doesn't mean that individuality is totally crushed & can't be expressed within the driving.
There are many things in that school that may seem very anal to outsiders in the way they are prescribed, but is not done so without good reason. It is done because experience shows that it offers the candidates the most reliable way to perform consistantly in very trying circumstances. Under pressure we revert to type & do what comes naturally. So under pressure we want the natural way to be one that offers the greatest consistency in the act, for the greatest number of people.
To that end little things like gear grip can become very important. I have seen numerous times where candidates are shown the best practice way & told why. They don't consistantly use that method, but over many hours it hasn't caused them great problem. They have done hundreds of gear changes & it not resulted in an incorrect gear change. However bring on extra pressure with very trying circumstances & they make a simple mistake that is directly attributable to the reliability of their chosen method (as was explained to them). It then results in a safety issue at a critical moment & their world falls apart over essentially something very simple that most people would give very little thought to. There are limited time frames in which to instill these processes in the candidates.
So it is with mirrors. Where I am coming from intentional distraction lays ahead & someone wants to divert your scans from behind. I am less concerned about danger ahead, because I can stay away from it. I will back myself to see & deal with it. I can't however stop danger behind getting closer where it is travelling quicker than me & that concerns me more because I have less control over it & therefore view it as a greater potential risk.
If I can then carry those principles into every day driving & can deal with everything ahead whilst always knowing exactly what is behind & how quick it is closing, does that not make me safer ?
The prescribed way of mirror use I am talking about means you will be so equipped. Because it becomes a reflex action to stimulae, it won't ever be missed at that crucial moment irrespective of what grabs your attention ahead. It offers total consistency & no nasty surprises (which we should all be trying to avoid in our driving).
I'm not force feeding this to anyone, only offering my advice of what in my experience provides greatest consistency in even the most exceptional circumstances. Each person must do as they see fit & according to their individual needs & ability levels. Of course one big plus in what I am saying, means that you should never get caught out by a white/silver car with bar lights closing on you quickly, you'll see it coming from a long way off
Ultimately be safe, don't get caught out by the changing picture behind & do what works reliably for you. If you do ever get caught out (in relation to anything) then examine what may have lead to that, learn from it & address it so it doesn't happen again.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Friday 28th April 06:50
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