Joined IAM - Too slow?
Discussion
I have read and understood what you have said, but I cannot see how you would be coasting in neutral for any considerable length of time just by bringing your speed down through either lifting off the gas or by braking early. If someone is driving too close to your rear, then a gentle and progressive application should suffice to warn them of your actions and avoid taking them by suprise.
GreenV8S said:
One problem I would anticipate, is that following 'the system' will result in you slowing down unusually early for corners and then coasting for some distance while you get any necessary gear change out of the way. This will cause problems for drivers following you who have managed their separation and closing speed on the assumption that you are a typical driver, and will have to change their plans abruptly when you stay on the main carriageway after slowing down rather than turning off promptly. Naturally you will have the nice warm glow of knowing that the difficulties you caused them are their fault not yours.
Doesn't happen. If you are doing it right the gear change blends in perfectly as you move the foot from brake to gas to rev match. If someone is following close enough that this causes them a problem it really, really is their fault.
Emma is right in that early display of the brake light gives the vehicle behind plenty of time to react so they don't slam into you.
The only instance I could possibly see where a long "coast" could be odd when viewed from behind would be during the first few attempts at applying the system.
A good Observer will be choosing the route wisely to avoid any issues.
And as to your uncharacteristally flippant comment: I am constantly filled with a huge warm glow of satisfaction.
Pah! 
What I've found out so far is that the more you know. The more you learn. The more you find out that there is still so much left to find out and there will always be some bugger better than you are!
Don. The day you stop learning is the day you die.gridgway said:
Does [the IAM method of teaching] normally have a mechanism/method/timetable/system?
No.
Each group is different. Emma's sounds spot on (assuming it suits your learning style). Many dont do this.
Some Groups are very formal. Some Groups are very informal. Some Observers are brilliant....some Groups are very informal!!!
I know some Associates who's Observer has never mentioned Roadcraft or the 'Advanced' book once. I know some who refer to it every drive, and discuss what will happen during the next run.
Some call it a run. Some call it a lesson.
You takes your pick and good luck. The best thing is to find out someone with experience of the local group if possible, and chat to them. However, the point to remember is that most serious drivers can pass regardless of the syle of teaching, if they are prepared to study and learn (and ask questions on here). It's just that a really good group makes it a bit easier.
Don said:
One problem I would anticipate, is that following 'the system' will result in you slowing down unusually early for corners and then coasting for some distance while you get any necessary gear change out of the way. This will cause problems for drivers following you who have managed their separation and closing speed on the assumption that you are a typical driver, and will have to change their plans abruptly when you stay on the main carriageway after slowing down rather than turning off promptly. Naturally you will have the nice warm glow of knowing that the difficulties you caused them are their fault not yours.
Doesn't happen. If you are doing it right the gear change blends in perfectly as you move the foot from brake to gas to rev match. If someone is following close enough that this causes them a problem it really, really is their fault.
Emma is right in that early display of the brake light gives the vehicle behind plenty of time to react so they don't slam into you.
The only instance I could possibly see where a long "coast" could be odd when viewed from behind would be during the first few attempts at applying the system.
A good Observer will be choosing the route wisely to avoid any issues.
And as to your uncharacteristally flippant comment: I am constantly filled with a huge warm glow of satisfaction.
What I've found out so far is that the more you know. The more you learn. The more you find out that there is still so much left to find out and there will always be some bugger better than you are!
In my experience, there are two factors specifically involved. One is experience and practice at the system, the other is the circs. Even with a lot of practice and good rev matching you are tacking on the gearchange at the end of braking.
So on open roads, at higher speeds, when the hazards you are braking for are bends etc, the effect is minimal espcially with good throttle matching. The effect is maximised in town type driving where you are, for example, doing a left turn off the main road into a side road. This I think is one of the scenarios where Roadcraft 'allows' overlapping of braking and the gearchange.
Graham
Big Fat F'er said:
You takes your pick and good luck. The best thing is to find out someone with experience of the local group if possible, and chat to them. However, the point to remember is that most serious drivers can pass regardless of the syle of teaching, if they are prepared to study and learn (and ask questions on here). It's just that a really good group makes it a bit easier.
That's why I am trying to find a group accessible from Woking who can do summer evening runs. Otherwise I have to wait until november to resume sunday morning runs.
Graham
gridgway said:
pretty much my experience too. I was doing my best granny driving and criticised for driving agressively. Now believe me, I am a very steady driver when I am in granny-mode. I ran out of winter to do my IAM (summer is too busy) and really didn't get on with the system (that's the IAM system, not the driving system which I practice anyway).
Hey ho.
Graham
Hmm, interesting Graham. Perhaps I'm not alone in feeling that some versions of the IAM way are just a bit too stiff and formal and generally un-natural. I'm all in favour of sufficient system and formality to get the job done reliably of course, but there is such a thing as excessive caution and restraint - I would suggest. However, it's their rules etc....
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Philbes said:
Thanks for the comments so far.
I will end this post here and post again after more observed drives. Will probably take me three weeks or so before I have two more observed drives due to other commitments of myself and observer. At least I am getting on fine with my observer.
May I offer you my best wishes for the rest of the course Phil, and hope everything clicks into place for you.
Dave.
GreenV8S said:
One problem I would anticipate, is that following 'the system' will result in you slowing down unusually early for corners and then coasting for some distance while you get any necessary gear change out of the way.
Beg pardon Peter, but are you sure that's right? I don't think the system necessarily imposes a low rate of decelleration prior to a corner or other hazard. Does it not simply call for the application of a logical sequence of actions, carried out in an orderly and smooth manner, including braking and selection of the appropriate gear etc.? The braking could (I imagine) be quite firm in the middle portion, so long as it is gentle to start with and gentle to end with. If you are too gentle with the whole of the slowing down process you might be accused of failing to make adequate progress!
Best wishes all,
Dave.
>> Edited by TripleS on Monday 8th May 20:37
Actually, I spend a lot of time working on people who like this 'low rate of deceleration' on the way into hazards. From an advanced point of view I don't think it works that well - it's 
difficult to judge the exact brake pressure required to get the deceleration you want (either that or I get a disproportionate number of clients who can't judge correctly) as you haven't got a nice firm brake pedal to modulate with and all you're doing is wasting time that could be better spent doing other things. You get a much better view when you're closer to the hazard and things aren't going to change that much between the time you start braking and you complete it and (possibly) go for the gear required.
This shouldn't be about doing everything early, it should be about doing it in a planned fashion. I find you get a more composed drive when you work on clients/associates brake modulation method than if you get them braking earlier for hazards. You should be using the brakes to create the time required for observation at the best point on the road for observation and any other control inputs. Brushing the brakes for a long period prior to a hazard is hardly the best use of the £10 (apologies to Keith Code) of concentration available.
difficult to judge the exact brake pressure required to get the deceleration you want (either that or I get a disproportionate number of clients who can't judge correctly) as you haven't got a nice firm brake pedal to modulate with and all you're doing is wasting time that could be better spent doing other things. You get a much better view when you're closer to the hazard and things aren't going to change that much between the time you start braking and you complete it and (possibly) go for the gear required. This shouldn't be about doing everything early, it should be about doing it in a planned fashion. I find you get a more composed drive when you work on clients/associates brake modulation method than if you get them braking earlier for hazards. You should be using the brakes to create the time required for observation at the best point on the road for observation and any other control inputs. Brushing the brakes for a long period prior to a hazard is hardly the best use of the £10 (apologies to Keith Code) of concentration available.
Don said:
Well if you are doing it right, you shouldn't be unnecessarily holding other people up.
I agree. Although one common thing that (poor) drivers tend to do is lurch into junctions. An Advanced Driver - or simply a competent one - will tend to brake and get the right gear (probably 2nd) in a straight line before having both hands on the wheel to steer smoothly into the junction and then smartly accelerate away.
I find some associates are so keen on getting out of the way of Mr Steam-From-Ears-In-The-X5-With-Bull-bars behind that they feel they must brake, go round the junction in 4th whilst fumbling for 2nd with one hand on the wheel and then find the car is off balance and doesn't want to anything because they've found neutral after it.
The cure?
A long smooth early brake - showing the brake lights to the bloke behind. Taking command of the situation. YES. Hold up the traffic until *you* are at the right speed for the junction - then get out of their way neatly.
Personally I don't give a shit if Steam-From-Ears gets a hump on - I am NOT going into a junction too quick, possibly killing the pedestrian just around it that I cannot yet see, simply because bloke-behind is too dim to leave a decent enough gap to "soak up" traffic ahead's manouevers without changing down.
So VH and I are in probably in total agreement. If you are doing it right you will not unnecessarily hold anyone up. You may well however necessarily hold someone up if it is important for safety.
Comments, VH?
If you've got someone close behind & you are taking a tight junction left or right, then a pre-sold overlap to meet with their expectations of your braking on the grounds of safety is in order. You will still ensure you have achieved correct speed, gear & be off both brakes & clutch before you turn in.
As has been said elsewhere, it is possible that you would hold up others, but not unnecessarily so. Don't be forced to carry more speed than you can deal with comfortably (whilst remaining, safe, systematic & smooth) into any hazard.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 8th May 22:37
TripleS said:
Beg pardon Peter, but are you sure that's right? I don't think the system necessarily imposes a low rate of decelleration prior to a corner or other hazard. Does it not simply call for the application of a logical sequence of actions, carried out in an orderly and smooth manner, including braking and selection of the appropriate gear etc.? The braking could (I imagine) be quite firm in the middle portion, so long as it is gentle to start with and gentle to end with. If you are too gentle with the whole of the slowing down process you might be accused of failing to make adequate progress!
The issue isn't how firmly I brake prior to the corner, it's how long I spend coasting afterwards.
I'm thinking about the case where I'm in a stream of traffic at 50-60 mph and want to turn off onto a narrow side road, in good conditions.
Normally I'd aim to give the cars behind me plenty of advance warning about what I'm going to do, put the brakes on gently relatively early on to make it absolutely clear where I am going, and then brake more firmly to slow down to the speed I want for the corner. I'll change gear late into the braking, aiming to complete the gear change shortly before I turn in to the corner. If I'm in the (rwd) TVR I'll use heel-and-toe to match revs on the downshift, if I'm in the (fwd) mundane machine I'll feed the clutch in gradually to match the revs and ease off the brakes to compensate for the engine braking. As I reach the corner I'll progressively ease off the brakes and start turning into the corner, so that the loads on the car smoothly transition from backwards to sideways, and eventually forwards as I accelerate away from the corner.
I think that's broadly what the average man on the street would do, and it's what the people around me are probably expecting me to do. This is what the advanced instructor would call 'arriving at the corner all in a heap', and it's what I would call smooth and progressive driving.
Using The System I think I would be told to adopt a different approach. I'd still brake early to make it clear I was slowing down and then brake more firmly as the corner approach. I need to brake slightly earlier and/or more firmly this time, because when I come to change gear I will come right off the brakes and coast (not in the Wildy sense, liebchen) for the second or so it takes to change gear before finally turning in to the corner.
The significant difference is that using The System I've coasted for a good second or so at my target speed for the corner, before turning in.
I would expect cars behind me to anticipate my actions, and hold back for long enough for me to get out of their way, but without slowing down more than they need to. By 'loitering' in the road before turning off, I'm likely to mess up their plans causing them to run out of space before I've got out of their way.
It could be argued that the fault is theirs but I would feel that I was to blame for inconveniencing them. My feeling is that I am compromising my control over the vehicle (the car is perfectly happy braking and changing gear at the same time) in order to ease the workload on the driver.
I'm tending to agree with Pete on this. If you can't safely and smoothly moderate two controls at the same time, how can you lay claim being an "advanced" driver? Is this not just a case, as with so many things in life, of dumbing down the process to the point where a monkey could do it, at the expense of not achieving optimum performance? Maybe an auto would be a better solution.
Actually, thinking about it, do auto boxes change down as you brake, or do they wait until you lift off the brake?
Actually, thinking about it, do auto boxes change down as you brake, or do they wait until you lift off the brake?
TripleS said:
One problem I would anticipate, is that following 'the system' will result in you slowing down unusually early for corners and then coasting for some distance while you get any necessary gear change out of the way.
Beg pardon Peter, but are you sure that's right? I don't think the system necessarily imposes a low rate of decelleration prior to a corner or other hazard. Does it not simply call for the application of a logical sequence of actions, carried out in an orderly and smooth manner, including braking and selection of the appropriate gear etc.? The braking could (I imagine) be quite firm in the middle portion, so long as it is gentle to start with and gentle to end with. If you are too gentle with the whole of the slowing down process you might be accused of failing to make adequate progress!
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Indeed Dave.
There is no coasting (extended unnecessary clutch down OR in neutral).
It is about the sequence of system application & smooth progressive transfer of weight under braking. To achieve good seperation will require good firm second stage brakes from any moderate speed up.
So much of good road driving is about a smooth progressive application & achieving balance through gradual progressive weight transfer. How smooth you are is one of the first things that observers will notice. It is the initial application of our inputs that are very important, we have to make sure that they are all unrushed & carefully measured. We effectively telegraph our intentions to move weight to the vehicle before we start to do it in earnest. We have to at all times be sympathetic & understanding of the vehicles need for good balance.
Smooth speed loss starts with rolling off the throttle, not jumping off it. After using acceleration sense we gently ever so lightly pick up the brakes in a very slow movement so that weight starts to move slowly & under full control. The applicaton of the brakes should be one progressive well judged application (not a series of applications of firm brakes, easing off & firm again for the one hazard), with the foot starting very slowly but then being able to move towards very firm braking. Passengers should be aware that we were using acceleration sense and that we moved to gentle brakes. They should also be aware that we moved onto good firm braking, but what they shouldn't be able to determine, is the exact points we went from one to the other, because the transitions are so smoothly blended together in the one progressive application they can't tell.
An analogy I use for visualisation is that you should imagine there is a pint glass glued to a flat space on the dashboard. The glass is half full with red wine. As you touch the brakes initially the movement of the wine should be almost imperceptible. Once you have that initial movement started the wine should slowly start moving up the side of the glass under control as you increase brake pressure, it shouldn't really stop moving once it's started & it only moves more quickly in the later stages of second stage brakes as the braking gets firm & by the end it should be almost at the lip of the glass. You then (having gained the correct speed at exactly the right distance back from the hazard) take a second to roll of the brake pedal & allow the weight to transfer back & the vehicle settle. As you do this the wine drops without spilling & you then take an unhurried gear change if required & should have clutch up & left hand back to the wheel ready to pull the steering on for the turn in.
If you have the timing spot on, you will just have time to check your watch for the time on it's way from gear lever to wheel & then pull the steering a split second after the hand gets to the wheel. If you can do that you were spot on, if you have more time than that you've outbraked it, if you've less time your system was late.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 8th May 22:04
victormeldrew said:
Actually, thinking about it, do auto boxes change down as you brake, or do they wait until you lift off the brake?
Depends how much speed you are losing & how you do it.
Autoboxes don't tend to take down shifts (following a result in fairly sharp speed loss) instantaneously. They'll pause for thought before selecting what they consider the appropriate gear.
They will however change down whilst you are still on the brake where your speed loss is very gradual & not firm.
As a result when driving an auto to "the system" where you are losing quite a lot of speed reasonably firmly prior to the hazard, you have to brake away from the hazard pretty much as you would to leave room for a seperated gear change in a manual car, because the auto box needs time to settle & sort out a gear prior to your entry into hazard. It is however a common mistake for people to not make that room & brake right up to the hazard as they don't see any action required for them to get the gear. This results in the autobox not having selected a gear as they enter & them not actually being "on the drive" until they are well into the curved path.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 8th May 22:49
vonhosen said:
There is no coasting (extended unnecessary clutch down OR in neutral).
When I refer to coasting, I mean driving at constant speed with neither acceleration nor braking. According to The System I should not brake while changing gear, which means I am coasting while I change gear.
vonhosen said:If the Tip in my A8 was that slow I'd have it back to the dealers! I can't recall ever having caught it in too high a gear after braking, and I have been known to brake reasonably firmly. Mind you, I'm often on the gas while still coming off the brake - I suppose left foot braking is firmly off the menu in "the system".
Actually, thinking about it, do auto boxes change down as you brake, or do they wait until you lift off the brake?
Depends how much speed you are losing & how you do it.
Autoboxes don't tend to take down shifts (following a result in fairly sharp speed loss) instantaneously. They'll pause for thought before selecting what they consider the appropriate gear.
They will however change down whilst you are still on the brake where your speed loss is very gradual & not firm.
As a result when driving an auto to "the system" where you are losing quite a lot of speed reasonably firmly prior to the hazard, you have to brake away from the hazard pretty much as you would to leave room for a seperated gear change in a manual car, because the auto box needs time to settle & sort out a gear prior to your entry into hazard. It is however a common mistake for people to not make that room & brake right up to the hazard as they don't see any action required for them to get the gear. This results in the autobox not having selected a gear as they enter & them not actually being "on the drive" until they are well into the curved path.
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