Severe understeer help!
Discussion
also after the skid pan, try an airfield track day. Heavy on tyres, but you can push further at higher speeds with not much more than cones to hit (provided you are sensible and dont go hooning when other cars are close). Of course you can be a loon, but within the realms of sense you can have some good fun and learn a lot. There are of course the other cars, so it's not risk free!
Graham
Graham
Don said:I didn't see you around on the day in question Don
Skid pan.... Did you say skid pan FiF? After a recent "incident" I want to get myself on one and brush up on my ability to catch tail slides.
Is it available to the public? What sort of costs are involved?
Lots of the tracks have skid-pans. My IAM Group takes groups of 12 to our local pan (Goodwood) to go play and see how cars react in varying scenarios.
One thing I try to remind everyone though is that there is still a world of difference between tackling slides at 12 miles an hour on a surface equivalent to glass covered with grease and dealing with one at 100mph on grippy tarmac absolutely shitting yourself because the hedge is coming up very rapidly...or even dealing with one at 40mph on a roundabout on wet day. Very different when it really matters...
I still recommend the pan as a learning experience, though!
Our Group visits cost £45 each. A dedicated three hour session with the pan to yourself would be more like £200.
>> Edited by Don on Thursday 25th May 07:40
I learnt to drive on wet grass and I've done all sorts of sliding over the years but I lost the arse in my BMW a while back in the wet (on going back and examining why it happened there was gravel across the road) and it shook me up. I'm happy controlling slides but this one took more attempts to correct than I was happy with. I know I was over correcting slightly so a day of deliberately going sideways seems a good way of regaining my composure.
Prices seem reasonable, I'll have to try to find a local block booking to tag along with.
BliarOut said:
Skid pan.... Did you say skid pan FiF? After a recent "incident" I want to get myself on one and brush up on my ability to catch tail slides.
Is it available to the public? What sort of costs are involved?
Yes, £85, YHM.
The IAM and RoADA book groups borrow it at weekends around £45-ish 3 pupils / car / instructor.
The problem with most skid-pan training is that the driver is always anticipating a skid, and is mentally prepared to correct it. On the road, if you are driving in a sensible manner, a skid is only going to occur if something very unexpected happens, when your mind will not be ready. Hence the reason why some drivers make technical mistakes in real SHTF skids, which they normally don't make on a skid pan.
Skid pans are useful for practising collision avoidance manoeuvres though, provided that there is enough room and driving speed can be sufficiently high (above 50kph or 30mph).
>> Edited by Jungles on Thursday 25th May 16:12
Skid pans are useful for practising collision avoidance manoeuvres though, provided that there is enough room and driving speed can be sufficiently high (above 50kph or 30mph).
>> Edited by Jungles on Thursday 25th May 16:12
Don't know how your 106 will compare exactly to my car as it sounds like you have a very basic version (no ABS or PAS) so you may have skinny tyres and soft suspension.
However I have found that in my car when understeer sets in (only ever in wet greasy conditions) i find it best to use either a gentle throttle release and maintain steering angle or reduce steering angle and maintain throttle.
Trying to do both at the same time tends to make things a little jerky.
Of course this only applies to r/about exit understeer whereas i think your case was on entry. Luckily i have not yet managed to achieve that, my car tends to prefer steering from the rear.
However I have found that in my car when understeer sets in (only ever in wet greasy conditions) i find it best to use either a gentle throttle release and maintain steering angle or reduce steering angle and maintain throttle.
Trying to do both at the same time tends to make things a little jerky.
Of course this only applies to r/about exit understeer whereas i think your case was on entry. Luckily i have not yet managed to achieve that, my car tends to prefer steering from the rear.
gridgway said:
also after the skid pan, try an airfield track day. Heavy on tyres, but you can push further at higher speeds with not much more than cones to hit (provided you are sensible and dont go hooning when other cars are close). Of course you can be a loon, but within the realms of sense you can have some good fun and learn a lot. There are of course the other cars, so it's not risk free!
Graham
IMHO of more benefit.
But harder to find places to do.
vonhosen said:
also after the skid pan, try an airfield track day. Heavy on tyres, but you can push further at higher speeds with not much more than cones to hit (provided you are sensible and dont go hooning when other cars are close). Of course you can be a loon, but within the realms of sense you can have some good fun and learn a lot. There are of course the other cars, so it's not risk free!
Graham
IMHO of more benefit.
But harder to find places to do.
Most of the internet track day companies run airfield days. I use Motorsport Events, Bookatrack and Easytrack.
Graham
KB_S1 said:
Don't know how your 106 will compare exactly to my car as it sounds like you have a very basic version (no ABS or PAS) so you may have skinny tyres and soft suspension.
However I have found that in my car when understeer sets in (only ever in wet greasy conditions) i find it best to use either a gentle throttle release and maintain steering angle or reduce steering angle and maintain throttle.
Trying to do both at the same time tends to make things a little jerky.
Of course this only applies to r/about exit understeer whereas i think your case was on entry. Luckily i have not yet managed to achieve that, my car tends to prefer steering from the rear.
Yes quite basic, small tyres, admittedly i always use Pirelli P3000's, best I can get to fit.
No PAS, got strong arms now
or ABS (I'm quite happy to take my foot off the brake and reapply it when locked up, as may have happened once or twice in the past!). Only ever understeers in the wet, in the dry the front hangs on for grim death, and the back lets go, which I think is a bit odd, as the suspension is quite soft at the front and quite stiff at the back.
Thanks for the advice guys, another quick question though, I'm quite adept at left foot braking, (too much time practicing/playing on farm tracks
) could that have helped the situation, in an attempt to slide the back round? Or would the front just carry on sliding? Time to buy a mkI Escort RS1600 I reckon, and just apply the power through the corner
Nic Jones said:
I'm quite adept at left foot braking, (too much time practicing/playing on farm tracks
Left foot braking is extremely effective at overcoming understeer.
The problem with most modern cars is that they design the steering & suspension geometry to induce understeer. They call it "Safety Understeer" in some circles. Why going headfirst into a ditch/tree/wall is safety I have yet to find out.
Lift off oversteer. All cars do that. Doesn't matter if it's a 106 or a Trabant. If your corner entry speed is verging on the limit, and you lift off, it'll oversteer/spin. First rule of weight transfer. Don't lift!
If you want to learn to drive properly and sort out your understeer, firstly consider a full IAM course. Then I would recomment the John Lyon HPC course - you will learn. Oh yes. You will.
Once you have done that, then go to Silverstone for their Race Intensive Course.
If you pass all that, you'll be on the way to understanding your severe understeer problem.
Lift off oversteer. All cars do that. Doesn't matter if it's a 106 or a Trabant. If your corner entry speed is verging on the limit, and you lift off, it'll oversteer/spin. First rule of weight transfer. Don't lift!
If you want to learn to drive properly and sort out your understeer, firstly consider a full IAM course. Then I would recomment the John Lyon HPC course - you will learn. Oh yes. You will.
Once you have done that, then go to Silverstone for their Race Intensive Course.
If you pass all that, you'll be on the way to understanding your severe understeer problem.
How on earth is understeer safer than oversteer? At least you've got a fair chance with oversteer if you know how the car behaves when on the limit?
I'd much rather lose the back than the front no matter what the car.
Had a bit of a play in the rain yesterday around the car park at work (after hours obviously), deliberately overcooking it into sharp corners at each end and then left foot braking to see the effect, and i must admit it really brought the back around enough to be able to drive out the corner safely, the main issue is coordination of hands and both feet, braking accelerating and steering together.
Thanks for all your advice guys, I know an instructor at the pan near home sdo may have a word and go for a session sometime.
Regards Nic
I'd much rather lose the back than the front no matter what the car.
Had a bit of a play in the rain yesterday around the car park at work (after hours obviously), deliberately overcooking it into sharp corners at each end and then left foot braking to see the effect, and i must admit it really brought the back around enough to be able to drive out the corner safely, the main issue is coordination of hands and both feet, braking accelerating and steering together.
Thanks for all your advice guys, I know an instructor at the pan near home sdo may have a word and go for a session sometime.
Regards Nic
You can correct most mild understeer situations by lifting off the throttle, which is what drivers usually do by instinct. Correcting oversteer is less intuitive, as it requires a much more precision over the control of the steering wheel and throttle to achieve, without fish-tailing.
Nic Jones said:
How on earth is understeer safer than oversteer? At least you've got a fair chance with oversteer if you know how the car behaves when on the limit?
I'd much rather lose the back than the front no matter what the car.
Had a bit of a play in the rain yesterday around the car park at work (after hours obviously), deliberately overcooking it into sharp corners at each end and then left foot braking to see the effect, and i must admit it really brought the back around enough to be able to drive out the corner safely, the main issue is coordination of hands and both feet, braking accelerating and steering together.
Thanks for all your advice guys, I know an instructor at the pan near home sdo may have a word and go for a session sometime.
Regards Nic
Most people have had no training beyond their DSA training. With our roads not being a race circuit & with the limits set, if people obey the rules the chances of them ever getting near to the limits of vehicle handling are very slim. On road training focuses on giving people the skills to make sure they never get into trouble, not the skills to get them out of it.
As Jungles has said, mild understeer is the safest easiest thing for the majority of our road going drivers to deal with.
Nic Jones said:
How on earth is understeer safer than oversteer? At least you've got a fair chance with oversteer if you know how the car behaves when on the limit?
I'd much rather lose the back than the front no matter what the car.
Above and beyond what others have said there are two over-riding reasons for making all road cars with a degree of understeer. The first one is that with a car setup with steady state oversteer, you have to change line by initially steering tighter and then winding off the lock to a lower level. With understeer, you merely have to add the extra steering.
The second one is that a car with understeer will respond quicker to the helm input than a neutral or oversteer car. They might wash out as well but they intially turn in better. There's nothing worse than adding too much steering to a neutral or OS car in an effort to get it to turn quicker and then discovering that you're going to pass in front of the apex you actually wanted.
As Von said, very few people have any training beyond the DSA test pass and from my experience discussions of understeer/oversteer don't occur at that level. Manufacturers design their cars for the lowest common denominator (just consider the furores over the Audi TT and the Ford Explorer in the 'States over their propensity to rollover. The same thing happened with the Chevvy Corvair much, much earlier and that particular engineering nightmare was one of the prime drivers in the development of vehicle dynamics as an engineering problem rather than a black art) so they have to make them foolproof or they'll be paying lots of compensation out of their profit margin.
7db said:Yes that's all anyone could do - isn't it? You see this at my local circuit (Castle Combe) a lot, on trackdays as well as race events. Entry to Quarry Corner is often overcooked and cars understeer towards the tyrewall. Most drivers brake instinctively, and once on the grass this helps take them to the scene of the accident. Very few are cool enough to take lock off and lift slightly, then resume braking and smoother steering in line with the amount of grip available. It works if done soon enough but fighting against the ohfeckfactor is difficult.
straighten, lift off to get weight on nose, stop aquaplaning, regain grip, reapply steering smoothly this time. Hope there's room for all this.
Nic Jones said:
How on earth is understeer safer than oversteer? At least you've got a fair chance with oversteer if you know how the car behaves when on the limit?
I'd much rather lose the back than the front no matter what the car.
------- snip ---------
Thanks for all your advice guys, I know an instructor at the pan near home sdo may have a word and go for a session sometime.
Regards Nic
Nic,
We have to think like the car designers. They are designing a car for the average numpty to drive. If you regularly have severe understeer, then you have a distict lack of connection between the grey matter, the optical interfaces, and the right foot (ie: you clearly cannot judge your speed in relation to the conditions in which you are driving - please park your car safely, and call a taxi or catch a bus, hand your licence in at the nearest police station, and help keep the insurance premiums lower for the rest of us).
If you have mild understeer, and understand the situation, you are obviously "switched on" to the situation, and are most likely open to instruction as per the solution - hence your final comment about wishing to hook up with the instructor at your local skid pan. I would recommend this to anyone, whether they consider their driving one step up from Ernie with is Milk Float, or "know everything" and fly fighters for a living. It's good for the soul, as well as the skillset, and a refresher is always much better than finding that your skills are not that good as you thought when you find the immovable object modifying your pride and joy's aestetics.
To get shot of that mild understeer, you need your suspension tweeking. More static camber, and more caster, and the best trick - get shot of the ackerman on the front. It's great for normal road use, slow speed, but it's a pain in the arse at high speed, causing mild understeer.
To get shot of oversteer on your rwd car, the pedal on the right goes up (but only do it gently!), as well as down.
Rob.
former ARDS Instructor (temorarily retired!)
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