Can I overtake?
Discussion
There have been a number of posts regarding overtaking and whether or not to break the 60mph NSL when doing so. VH, as expected, holds the view that no speed limit should be exceeded when overtaking and if breaking the speed limit would be necessary in order to generate a ‘safe’ overtake then that overtake should not be carried out. The IAM ‘manual’ also states that speed limits must not be broken.
Please consider the following: -
I wish to overtake a car travelling at 50mph on a single-carriageway NSL road. Ideal circumstances in that as I approach at 60mph there is an opportunity to pass. So no acceleration required!
I ‘pull out’ when 3 car lengths behind and pull back in when the rear of my car is 3 car lengths past the overtaken car. Total ‘gain’ on overtaken car is 8 car lengths. Allow 15 feet for car length so distance travelled = 120 feet. At a speed differential of 10mph that is 8.2 seconds. At 60mph in 8.2 seconds I will have travelled 722 feet = 220 metres.
If a car is approaching at 60mph then I will need double that distance plus, say, a 2 second safety margin so I am back on my side of the road before the approaching car reaches me and without frightening the driver. So total distance to approaching car for a safe overtake is now 1602 feet = 488 metres = well over ¼ mile.
Even if the car I am overtaking is travelling at 40mph, in the face of oncoming traffic, I will still need 274 metres for a safe overtake.
Explains why I now seem to rarely overtake on single carriageway roads.
Other drivers seem to shorten the distance needed for the overtake by one of, or a combination of, four methods
a) break the speed limit
b) Start very close to the back of the car being overtaken
c) pull in sharply in front of the car being overtaken
d) reduce separation between their vehicle and approaching vehicle on completion of overtake.
All these comprise safety – with the possible exception of a) that just risks a fine & points!
I now wait for my maths and assumptions to be torn apart!
Please consider the following: -
I wish to overtake a car travelling at 50mph on a single-carriageway NSL road. Ideal circumstances in that as I approach at 60mph there is an opportunity to pass. So no acceleration required!
I ‘pull out’ when 3 car lengths behind and pull back in when the rear of my car is 3 car lengths past the overtaken car. Total ‘gain’ on overtaken car is 8 car lengths. Allow 15 feet for car length so distance travelled = 120 feet. At a speed differential of 10mph that is 8.2 seconds. At 60mph in 8.2 seconds I will have travelled 722 feet = 220 metres.
If a car is approaching at 60mph then I will need double that distance plus, say, a 2 second safety margin so I am back on my side of the road before the approaching car reaches me and without frightening the driver. So total distance to approaching car for a safe overtake is now 1602 feet = 488 metres = well over ¼ mile.
Even if the car I am overtaking is travelling at 40mph, in the face of oncoming traffic, I will still need 274 metres for a safe overtake.
Explains why I now seem to rarely overtake on single carriageway roads.
Other drivers seem to shorten the distance needed for the overtake by one of, or a combination of, four methods
a) break the speed limit
b) Start very close to the back of the car being overtaken
c) pull in sharply in front of the car being overtaken
d) reduce separation between their vehicle and approaching vehicle on completion of overtake.
All these comprise safety – with the possible exception of a) that just risks a fine & points!
I now wait for my maths and assumptions to be torn apart!
My view is that choices made while driving are not about being safe/unsafe, legal/illegal or convenient/inconvenient. None of these things are black and white, and there is always a trade-off between them. For example, I'd happily break the speed limit by a small amount if I thought it was safe to do so and it would save me a lot of time or money. I'd also happily break the speed limit by a small amount if I felt it made me significantly safer. Given the choice between an overtake entirely within the speed limit which was acceptably safe, and an overtake slightly in excess of the speed limit which was significantly safer, I might choose the faster overtake. Obviously, the risk of being caught and penalised for speeding is one of the factors in the trade-off.
Philbes said:
The IAM ‘manual’ also states that speed limits must not be broken.
However, there is something (or used to be) in the Highway Code which states that overtakes should
be carried out as quickly and safely as possible. Now "as quickly as possible" does tend to imply
a quick burst on the old loud pedal.
Additionally I have spoken to a few IAM examiners and they would all allow a short breach of the
limit (on NSL roads) to assist an overtake so long as you slowed back to the limit immediately
after the manoeuvre.
The IAM also prescribe that you move in close behind the vehicle to be passed (the take-off
or following position) when you are actively looking for a good oportunity so that you
don't waste valuable seconds playing catch up when the opening does come. You do of course
need to be extra vigilant during this phase as you have compromised your braking distance.
I think to be fair to VH what I understand he says is inherently the same as my position on this.
In part of planning / deciding to make the overtake one aspect is, can the overtake be done legally? Speed limit is just one part of this. If the overtake cannot be done legally, then I, and as I understand VH, would decide not to make the manoeuvre.
If however one decides that all other aspects considered, that the overtake is on except the bit regarding OPL, then one is at risk of being nabbed, and if one makes that decision then one shouldn't bleat about having one's collar felt.
Indeed that means there are times when one does not overtake simply because of the legal aspect. Just as one would not overtake if it meant crossing a solid white line, or within the zig-zags at a pedestrian crossing for example. Both these are potentially licence losing maneouvres.
In part of planning / deciding to make the overtake one aspect is, can the overtake be done legally? Speed limit is just one part of this. If the overtake cannot be done legally, then I, and as I understand VH, would decide not to make the manoeuvre.
If however one decides that all other aspects considered, that the overtake is on except the bit regarding OPL, then one is at risk of being nabbed, and if one makes that decision then one shouldn't bleat about having one's collar felt.
Indeed that means there are times when one does not overtake simply because of the legal aspect. Just as one would not overtake if it meant crossing a solid white line, or within the zig-zags at a pedestrian crossing for example. Both these are potentially licence losing maneouvres.
over_the_hill said:
Philbes said:
The IAM ‘manual’ also states that speed limits must not be broken.
The IAM also prescribe that you move in close behind the vehicle to be passed (the take-off
or following position) when you are actively looking for a good oportunity so that you
don't waste valuable seconds playing catch up when the opening does come.
For me (in my 1.4 Litre Clio), if someone is doing 45-50mph, i have to take a run-up to overtake them, i simply dont have enough power to execute a manovure from the same speed.
This happens to me quite alot, i generally tend to stay bang on 60mph (through a vast majority of corners too) and i encounter the 50mph crusiers alot.
The worst drivers though are the ones which goe painfully slow through the corners and then gun it on the straights, it leaves me screwed with no chance to make a move.
Peat said:
over_the_hill said:
Philbes said:
The IAM ‘manual’ also states that speed limits must not be broken.
The IAM also prescribe that you move in close behind the vehicle to be passed (the take-off
or following position) when you are actively looking for a good oportunity so that you
don't waste valuable seconds playing catch up when the opening does come.
For me (in my 1.4 Litre Clio), if someone is doing 45-50mph, I have to take a run-up to overtake them, I simply don't have enough power to execute a manoevure from the same speed.
Hmm, 'sfunny you should say that, but I have just the same problem. Try offering the Stressed one a banana - see if that helps. He'll be along later to explain.
Peat said:
The worst drivers though are the ones which go painfully slow through the corners and then gun it on the straights, it leaves me screwed with no chance to make a move.
Yes I know that can be frustrating. If you can't get past safely all you can do is hang back before the bends and even things out a bit that way. It may save you getting held up on the curly bits. HTH.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I had similar trouble whilst sticking rigidly to the IAM rules. It's very frustrating and not very safe. Exceeding the speed limit is the best option in most circumstances as 60 is normally too slow anyway. Also, sacricicing the safe following distance before an overtake is IAM procedure. Obviously the IAM cannot condone breaking the law as this would not befit their charitable status. However I can't help thinking that this is the only reason why they say to stick to the limit.
I don't think you can really put overtaking into such a strict set of rules. Passing a car on a single carriage way is one of the biggest judgement calls you make in a car, you just have to make a call. I've had a horrible moment overtaking a car that, although I don't believe the manouver I performed was initially dangerous, ended in very nearly nasty situation. But, I don't let that put me off doing it, and in that situation I was saved by doing nearly 80mph and having a reasonable degree of car control... for the record, the overtaking move began at just over fifty-five.
The key to it is always having contingency plans for if something does go wrong, from the car in front speeding up to something stupid like your engine giving up the ghost, whether that means getting on the brakes or risking a point or three!
The key to it is always having contingency plans for if something does go wrong, from the car in front speeding up to something stupid like your engine giving up the ghost, whether that means getting on the brakes or risking a point or three!
Edited by MrKipling43 on Wednesday 28th June 22:50
Peat said:
For me (in my 1.4 Litre Clio), if someone is doing 45-50mph, i have to take a run-up to overtake them, i simply dont have enough power to execute a manovure from the same speed.
Get a more powerful car as soon as you can. "Banana" overtakes as they are known can be dangerous. The reason is that if you take a "run up" there are a number of disadvantages...
1) If you need to abandon the overtake you now need to brake, possibly hard, to avoid whacking the car in front - not good.
2) A "run up" often means a "run up" in one's own lane - and then a lurch out onto the other side of the road at the last minute. This, basically, means a hard "cornering" manouver under acceleration - a situation that can induce a skid.
Basically not good. Yes I know its frustrating following someone at 50mph in a 60 when you would happily do 60 but its better than a risky overtake.
Peat said:
This happens to me quite alot, i generally tend to stay bang on 60mph (through a vast majority of corners too) and i encounter the 50mph crusiers alot.
So do I. They are very frustrating. You FAIL your IAM test for doing 50 when 60 is safely achievable.
Peat said:
The worst drivers though are the ones which goe painfully slow through the corners and then gun it on the straights, it leaves me screwed with no chance to make a move.
Try to see this from their point of view. Yes its frustrating when people have no idea what cornering speed is safe and you get held up behind them. I am always bemoaning the twit in front who seems terrified of corners when I'd like to get on. BUT at least they are erring on the side of caution - not throwing it into corners faster than would give them the ability to stop (in the distance they can see to be clear on their side of the road...yada yada). I'd rather a "slow" driver in front of me - then at least I can try and get past - than a "loony" coming towards me on the wrong side of the road - one's annoying, the other terrifying!
Amen to that.
I was expecting to get flamed for some of my comments but im glad to see that the PH community is full of like-minded people.
I totally agree what you guys are saying. Coming from a background of karting and off-road racing before driving on the road, i find it hard to understand why people cant understand the limits of adhesion etc. but its the way its always been and the way it always will be i suppose.
Take it easy fellas
Peat
I was expecting to get flamed for some of my comments but im glad to see that the PH community is full of like-minded people.
I totally agree what you guys are saying. Coming from a background of karting and off-road racing before driving on the road, i find it hard to understand why people cant understand the limits of adhesion etc. but its the way its always been and the way it always will be i suppose.
Take it easy fellas
Peat
The safest overtake in my book starts on the far side of the road with zero closing speed, a brief spurt of acceleration up to say 30 mph closing speed and then pass the car in a straight line which heads back to your side of the road. This has lots of advantages.
At the point you pull out you have zero closing speed so you can pull back into your gap at any point if anything unexpected happens. By the time you commit to the overtake you're clearly in sight of any cars behind that might be about to start their own overtake. From the point of view of oncoming traffic, since you are pulling back to your own side of the road steadily during the overtake it is clear from the outset that you are pulling back in and they can gauge how long it will take you to do this, no hanging out on the wrong side of the road and pulling in at the last minute with everyone wondering if you're going to make it in time. Since there's relatively little acceleration after the initial spurt, there's no risk of frightening the overtakee by making lots of fuss on the way past. Also using the relative speed to determine the acceleration required means that even if the overtakee consciously or unconsciously accelerates while you are passing them, the manoever is still relatively quick and safe.
Of course this works best when you have dramatically more power than the cars around you, but most of the principles still apply if you don't.
At the point you pull out you have zero closing speed so you can pull back into your gap at any point if anything unexpected happens. By the time you commit to the overtake you're clearly in sight of any cars behind that might be about to start their own overtake. From the point of view of oncoming traffic, since you are pulling back to your own side of the road steadily during the overtake it is clear from the outset that you are pulling back in and they can gauge how long it will take you to do this, no hanging out on the wrong side of the road and pulling in at the last minute with everyone wondering if you're going to make it in time. Since there's relatively little acceleration after the initial spurt, there's no risk of frightening the overtakee by making lots of fuss on the way past. Also using the relative speed to determine the acceleration required means that even if the overtakee consciously or unconsciously accelerates while you are passing them, the manoever is still relatively quick and safe.
Of course this works best when you have dramatically more power than the cars around you, but most of the principles still apply if you don't.
splatspeed said:
what do you do if the b*****d puts their foot down don't break the speed limit and go along side by side at 60 ????
Happened today to me
bimbling along at 30 in a 40 behind a woman for a few mins, taking it nice and steady, so overtook as the road opened up, they speed up to 50mph+ so I carry on overtaking as I'm past, but not past enough to pull in. I'm also in top gear as I anticipated a swift manoeuvre as they were bimbling along steadily. It's safe to go faster at this point in my mind to complete what I've already completed, I just want to get far enough ahead to pull infront without causing them to have to slow down to leave an adequate gap (has been safe for a good 100 yards as I check it's clear and safe to proceed past still).
However I now enter a 30mph zone with the person following ~ 60mph, a good 300 yards before I started my overtake and slowing down now with them pushing me along and getting close behind (why??) (please note the zoning of 30mph in this position is not your urban sprawl type, it's relevant about 500 yards later though at which point I adhere to it strictly and find the person following me closely behind)
Anyway she stops at my work round the bend and 200 yards on and lectured me about speed limits. I mentioned she made my safe overtake more dangerous by speeding up, which she apparently did because I was being obnoxious for overtaking initially, and in doing so also exceeded the posted limit too
she seemed to miss this point that her two wrongs vs my one wrong didn't add up to her having any authority when commenting on my driving. Ah well, you'll never please some people, especially the type to follow you to work and confront your simple safe overtake that they turned into a much more risky situation.
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 29th June 14:33
Mr Whippy said:
splatspeed said:
what do you do if the b*****d puts their foot down don't break the speed limit and go along side by side at 60 ????
Happened today to me
bimbling along at 30 in a 40 behind a woman for a few mins, taking it nice and steady, so overtook as the road opened up, they speed up to 50mph+ so I carry on overtaking as I'm past, but not past enough to pull in. I'm also in top gear as I anticipated a swift manoeuvre as they were bimbling along steadily. It's safe to go faster at this point in my mind to complete what I've already completed, I just want to get far enough ahead to pull infront without causing them to have to slow down to leave an adequate gap (has been safe for a good 100 yards as I check it's clear and safe to proceed past still).
However I now enter a 30mph zone with the person following ~ 60mph, a good 300 yards before I started my overtake and slowing down now with them pushing me along and getting close behind (why??) (please note the zoning of 30mph in this position is not your urban sprawl type, it's relevant about 500 yards later though at which point I adhere to it strictly and find the person following me closely behind)
Anyway she stops at my work round the bend and 200 yards on and lectured me about speed limits. I mentioned she made my safe overtake more dangerous by speeding up, which she apparently did because I was being obnoxious for overtaking initially, and in doing so also exceeded the posted limit too
she seemed to miss this point that her two wrongs vs my one wrong didn't add up to her having any authority when commenting on my driving. Ah well, you'll never please some people, especially the type to follow you to work and confront your simple safe overtake that they turned into a much more risky situation.
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 29th June 14:33
That woman would have had an absolute screaming fit from me. Accelerating to prevent an overtake ranged from plain rude to attempted murder. The conditions determine which. But I'd react as if it was the latter these days...
Mr Whippy said:
Anyway she stops at my work round the bend and 200 yards on and lectured me about speed limits. I mentioned she made my safe overtake more dangerous by speeding up, which she apparently did because I was being obnoxious for overtaking initially, and in doing so also exceeded the posted limit too
That's not a , that's a 
Don said:
Mr Whippy said:
splatspeed said:
what do you do if the b*****d puts their foot down don't break the speed limit and go along side by side at 60 ????
Happened today to me
bimbling along at 30 in a 40 behind a woman for a few mins, taking it nice and steady, so overtook as the road opened up, they speed up to 50mph+ so I carry on overtaking as I'm past, but not past enough to pull in. I'm also in top gear as I anticipated a swift manoeuvre as they were bimbling along steadily. It's safe to go faster at this point in my mind to complete what I've already completed, I just want to get far enough ahead to pull infront without causing them to have to slow down to leave an adequate gap (has been safe for a good 100 yards as I check it's clear and safe to proceed past still).
However I now enter a 30mph zone with the person following ~ 60mph, a good 300 yards before I started my overtake and slowing down now with them pushing me along and getting close behind (why??) (please note the zoning of 30mph in this position is not your urban sprawl type, it's relevant about 500 yards later though at which point I adhere to it strictly and find the person following me closely behind)
Anyway she stops at my work round the bend and 200 yards on and lectured me about speed limits. I mentioned she made my safe overtake more dangerous by speeding up, which she apparently did because I was being obnoxious for overtaking initially, and in doing so also exceeded the posted limit too
she seemed to miss this point that her two wrongs vs my one wrong didn't add up to her having any authority when commenting on my driving. Ah well, you'll never please some people, especially the type to follow you to work and confront your simple safe overtake that they turned into a much more risky situation.
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 29th June 14:33
That woman would have had an absolute screaming fit from me. Accelerating to prevent an overtake ranged from plain rude to attempted murder. The conditions determine which. But I'd react as if it was the latter these days...
Especially as the way it reads it seems as if she didn't accelerate to prevent the overtake, but did so in order to prevent Mr W pulling back onto LHS of road.
I was *kind* of in the wrong by overtaking with a 30mph zone only 300 yards away, knowing that I would continue at a higher speed for a few more hundred yards before a 30mph left hand bend, after which the 30mph zoning becomes appropriate. Had I stayed behind the woman driver I would have to possibly drive at 20mph for no good reason and have less potential to overtake safely.
It was safe though, I made the manoeuvre and ended up with a twit on my nearside playing silly buggers. The good think is reading roadcraft before bed on a night and taking tips from here, I'd made the manouevre with plenty of safety in reserve and it didn't result in anything more than more speed than I'd liked to have used to get past.
I'm used to it from having slower cars in the past really, and enjoying tootling along where it's safe to do so. You really notice the "speed up when you overtake them" brigade with only 90bhp to play with
Never mind, doing what she did, and then later admitting it in an almost "haha" way that she sped up to serve me right, meant she had lost any fibre of high ground. I just smiled and turned every objection back onto her with a little more scrutiny of her actions
I can't really tell at which point she seemed to speed up, but considering my gear and a gentle downhill at the overtaking phase, dropping onto a flat (shortly after it becomes 30mph zoned) she had ample ability to accelerate sufficiently to stay side by side until ~50mph, at which point I was thinking "I really want to pull across now, but if I do she's just going to get even more silly about it all" so I kept on till 60mph to give myself enough room to appear "courteous"...
Had she not sped up I'd have been past happily, but I can't differentiate between speeding up to stop me overtaking or speeding up to stop me getting back across. I just hung across onto the opposing lane to see it was clear with maybe 5mph closure speed, before just squirting the throttle a bit to tootle past (hence 5th gear), but I had to keep my foot in once alongside when I expected to have been well on my way past at +10mph sorta speed.
Again, another downside of the diesel, catch it off-boost or suddenly want more power and you don't have it, then suddenly you have ample.
Guess I've learnt a lesson... even if you don't expect to need much power to pass, and are aware of the low speed limit, always assume you need to accelerate at your cars maximum potential even if you don't need to. Hence reducing the effectiveness of people who may accelerate on your nearside as you overtake. I always see that as maybe rude (for volume reasons and not surprising people with high speed differentials), but hey, can't seem to please all the people all the time.
Dave
It was safe though, I made the manoeuvre and ended up with a twit on my nearside playing silly buggers. The good think is reading roadcraft before bed on a night and taking tips from here, I'd made the manouevre with plenty of safety in reserve and it didn't result in anything more than more speed than I'd liked to have used to get past.
I'm used to it from having slower cars in the past really, and enjoying tootling along where it's safe to do so. You really notice the "speed up when you overtake them" brigade with only 90bhp to play with
Never mind, doing what she did, and then later admitting it in an almost "haha" way that she sped up to serve me right, meant she had lost any fibre of high ground. I just smiled and turned every objection back onto her with a little more scrutiny of her actions
Flat in Fifth said:
Especially as the way it reads it seems as if she didn't accelerate to prevent the overtake, but did so in order to prevent Mr W pulling back onto LHS of road.
I can't really tell at which point she seemed to speed up, but considering my gear and a gentle downhill at the overtaking phase, dropping onto a flat (shortly after it becomes 30mph zoned) she had ample ability to accelerate sufficiently to stay side by side until ~50mph, at which point I was thinking "I really want to pull across now, but if I do she's just going to get even more silly about it all" so I kept on till 60mph to give myself enough room to appear "courteous"...
Had she not sped up I'd have been past happily, but I can't differentiate between speeding up to stop me overtaking or speeding up to stop me getting back across. I just hung across onto the opposing lane to see it was clear with maybe 5mph closure speed, before just squirting the throttle a bit to tootle past (hence 5th gear), but I had to keep my foot in once alongside when I expected to have been well on my way past at +10mph sorta speed.
Again, another downside of the diesel, catch it off-boost or suddenly want more power and you don't have it, then suddenly you have ample.
Guess I've learnt a lesson... even if you don't expect to need much power to pass, and are aware of the low speed limit, always assume you need to accelerate at your cars maximum potential even if you don't need to. Hence reducing the effectiveness of people who may accelerate on your nearside as you overtake. I always see that as maybe rude (for volume reasons and not surprising people with high speed differentials), but hey, can't seem to please all the people all the time.
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 29th June 15:38
That's a horrible situation to find yourself in. And exactly the one I found myself in yesterday.
Chav-boy decided that my passing him was an invitation to a race so opened up trying to strand me on the offside. Fortunately there was sufficient vision to complete the overtake. From your noctural Roadcrafting, you would too have been in a position to notice that it was a likely outcome (observe size of exhaust pipe, manner of driving when you adopt the overtaking position) and wait for a good long stretch before committing.
His second mistake was following me into the next corner after I'd spent a day on a handling course. I didn't see him again.
Chav-boy decided that my passing him was an invitation to a race so opened up trying to strand me on the offside. Fortunately there was sufficient vision to complete the overtake. From your noctural Roadcrafting, you would too have been in a position to notice that it was a likely outcome (observe size of exhaust pipe, manner of driving when you adopt the overtaking position) and wait for a good long stretch before committing.
His second mistake was following me into the next corner after I'd spent a day on a handling course. I didn't see him again.
7db said:
From your noctural Roadcrafting, you would too have been in a position to notice that it was a likely outcome (observe size of exhaust pipe, manner of driving when you adopt the overtaking position) and wait for a good long stretch before committing.
Due to her rather low speeds for the conditions (fair enough, no rush, just a mile from work) I had considered nipping past earlier but knew a straight was coming up where I could pass in an unoffensive manner with plenty of slack and so I held back and waited until then.
Can't seem to win but hey ho
Never had a chav speed up on me though to be honest, usually (well in the past) they saw the gti badge and stuck themselves to my rear bumper expecting a "race"
The main culprits with myself seem to be in the rural locations where older people are perhaps admiring the local scenery while I just want to make safe a to b progress, and they take some sort of offence to my overtaking
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 29th June 15:48
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