Can I overtake?

[TripleS]

vonhosen said:

Crippo said:

Overtaking seems to be falling out of favour these days. What do you guys think? I see less of it going on which results in really long queues of traffic building up quite unnessasarily. It makes overtaking half a dozen cars a much bigger problem. I find it particularly annoying being stuck behind lets say 5 cars with none of them being prepared to overtake and then they dont leave gaps to allow me to make the over take either. I must admit I always manage to open a gap up myself though

If they haven't left big enough gaps for you to overtake how do you manage to open the gap up ?

I'm afraid it amounts to pushing in and forcing open a gap, which I admit I used to do sometimes, but it is not something I would do these days. The failure to leave reasonable gaps for overtakers on the open road is becoming more of a problem though. People often tend to follow closely spaced nose to tail and don't consider those who wish (or need) to get on faster.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Flat in Fifth]

TripleS said:

vonhosen said:

Crippo said:

Overtaking seems to be falling out of favour these days. What do you guys think? I see less of it going on which results in really long queues of traffic building up quite unnessasarily. It makes overtaking half a dozen cars a much bigger problem. I find it particularly annoying being stuck behind lets say 5 cars with none of them being prepared to overtake and then they dont leave gaps to allow me to make the over take either. I must admit I always manage to open a gap up myself though

If they haven't left big enough gaps for you to overtake how do you manage to open the gap up ?

I'm afraid it amounts to pushing in and forcing open a gap,

Which I consider makes the overtaking decision a no on the basis of examining the principle of, is it safe? is it legal? what is the impact on other road users?

Assuming that the answer to the first two is yes, which is a big and very dodgy assumption re the pushing in bit, then it fails on the last bit which is adverse effect on other road users.

Rather like an overtake where the only way to execute involves passing a vehicle and returning to lane and then immdiately braking. So the poor overtaken one gets the space in front reduced and flaring brake lights in their face. It might have been safe but not very professional nor courteous in my very honest opinion.

[bikerkeith]

The issue of overtaking cropped up when we had the opportunity to quiz one of the IAM examiners at an observer meeting. His point of view on speed limits was that the overtake should be completed as speedily and safely as possible. He described a recent test where the associate performed a textbook overtake, however the examiner refused to be drawn on the speed achieved during the overtake. His response was on the lines of "I was looking where I was going, not at my speedo." (But it was safe to assume that the speed was over 60mph.)
On another issue raised in this thread, we recommend that gear changes are made before the overtake, so one less distraction when performing the manoeuvre. It also avoids the potentially catastrophic problem of missing a change while passing.

[Vaux]

bikerkeith said:

The issue of overtaking cropped up when we had the opportunity to quiz one of the IAM examiners at an observer meeting. His point of view on speed limits was that the overtake should be completed as speedily and safely as possible. ..... His response was on the lines of "I was looking where I was going, not at my speedo." (But it was safe to assume that the speed was over 60mph.)

Is that the biker section? Always seems to be a bit more leniency for IAM/RoADA bikers.

[bikerkeith]

Yes it was a bike observer meeting, but my car examiner took a similar view when I took the car test.

[Vaux]

bikerkeith said:

Yes it was a bike observer meeting, but my car examiner took a similar view when I took the car test.

Thanks. My RoADA car examiner sounded a bit more understanding too.

[TripleS]

Flat in Fifth said:

TripleS said:

vonhosen said:

Crippo said:

Overtaking seems to be falling out of favour these days. What do you guys think? I see less of it going on which results in really long queues of traffic building up quite unnessasarily. It makes overtaking half a dozen cars a much bigger problem. I find it particularly annoying being stuck behind lets say 5 cars with none of them being prepared to overtake and then they dont leave gaps to allow me to make the over take either. I must admit I always manage to open a gap up myself though

If they haven't left big enough gaps for you to overtake how do you manage to open the gap up ?

I'm afraid it amounts to pushing in and forcing open a gap,

Which I consider makes the overtaking decision a no on the basis of examining the principle of, is it safe? is it legal? what is the impact on other road users?

Assuming that the answer to the first two is yes, which is a big and very dodgy assumption re the pushing in bit, then it fails on the last bit which is adverse effect on other road users.

Rather like an overtake where the only way to execute involves passing a vehicle and returning to lane and then immdiately braking. So the poor overtaken one gets the space in front reduced and flaring brake lights in their face. It might have been safe but not very professional nor courteous in my very honest opinion.

Yes FiF I agree, though I do believe I used to do it in a safe manner, but it was certainly pushy and impolite. It was something I used to do a long time ago in my less well behaved days, and I do feel a bit ashamed of it now, looking back.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[vonhosen]

Gaps are either "sociable" basically where you could pass & get in on acceleration sense only without causing braking from anyone, or "unsociable", in which case you shouldn't be going as it can appear unreasonable, aggressive & may in some circumstances even constitute an offence.


At the end of the day IAM/RoADA will say you shouldn't be exceeding limits to do overtakes. Observers may taint that stance with their own personal views, but it's not going to be the official line.
Your IAM/RoADA observer saying it's OK is not going to be any defence for you where prosecuted for speeding during an overtake. They seriously can't fail you on test for not breaking the limit, but making good progress upto it.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th July 16:51

[TripleS]

vonhosen said:

Gaps are either "sociable" basically where you could pass & get in on acceleration sense only without causing braking from anyone, or "unsociable", in which case you shouldn't be going as it can appear unreasonable, aggressive & may in some circumstances even constitute an offence.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th July 16:51

This notion of doing overtakes in a manner that enables you to enter a return gap and settle in there having re-matched speed on acceleration sense only sounds a bit idealistic. I do agree it sounds very nice, but it will need a fairly large return gap for it to work properly, unless you can improve the decelleration by using a lower gear - i.e. for more engine braking, to avoid showing brake lights.

I would think that confining yourself to overtakes done on that basis, especially in modern traffic conditions, is going to rule out quite a few overtakes that would otherwise be legitimate. How likely is it that a following driver will be offended by a bit of braking when you arrive in the return gap, so long as you are not too close in front of him? I don't know the right answer, I'm just trying to get a feel for what is reasonable, and once again it is a matter of judgement I suppose.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[vonhosen]

TripleS said:

vonhosen said:

Gaps are either "sociable" basically where you could pass & get in on acceleration sense only without causing braking from anyone, or "unsociable", in which case you shouldn't be going as it can appear unreasonable, aggressive & may in some circumstances even constitute an offence.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th July 16:51

This notion of doing overtakes in a manner that enables you to enter a return gap and settle in there having re-matched speed on acceleration sense only sounds a bit idealistic. I do agree it sounds very nice, but it will need a fairly large return gap for it to work properly, unless you can improve the decelleration by using a lower gear - i.e. for more engine braking, to avoid showing brake lights.

I would think that confining yourself to overtakes done on that basis, especially in modern traffic conditions, is going to rule out quite a few overtakes that would otherwise be legitimate. How likely is it that a following driver will be offended by a bit of braking when you arrive in the return gap, so long as you are not too close in front of him? I don't know the right answer, I'm just trying to get a feel for what is reasonable, and once again it is a matter of judgement I suppose.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Oh it works, do it all the time.

Of course you have to be in the right place on the road, at the right time, at the right speed, with the right gear engaged. Mind you when I'm doing it I don't have to worry about the speed limit.
Outside of that, the extra burden of remaining within the speed limit mostly excludes the possibility, so the overtake rarely happens in such circumstances because the above criteria can't be satisfied.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th July 20:43

[TripleS]

vonhosen said:

TripleS said:

This notion of doing overtakes in a manner that enables you to enter a return gap and settle in there having re-matched speed on acceleration sense only sounds a bit idealistic. I do agree it sounds very nice, but it will need a fairly large return gap for it to work properly, unless you can improve the decelleration by using a lower gear - i.e. for more engine braking, to avoid showing brake lights.

I would think that confining yourself to overtakes done on that basis, especially in modern traffic conditions, is going to rule out quite a few overtakes that would otherwise be legitimate. How likely is it that a following driver will be offended by a bit of braking when you arrive in the return gap, so long as you are not too close in front of him? I don't know the right answer, I'm just trying to get a feel for what is reasonable, and once again it is a matter of judgement I suppose.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Oh it works, do it all the time.

Of course you have to be in the right place on the road, at the right time, at the right speed, with the right gear engaged. Mind you when I'm doing it I don't have to worry about the speed limit.
Outside of that, the extra burden of remaining within the speed limit mostly excludes the possibility, so the overtake rarely happens in such circumstances because the above criteria can't be satisfied.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th July 20:43

He's rubbing our noses in it again!

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[vonhosen]

TripleS said:

vonhosen said:

TripleS said:

This notion of doing overtakes in a manner that enables you to enter a return gap and settle in there having re-matched speed on acceleration sense only sounds a bit idealistic. I do agree it sounds very nice, but it will need a fairly large return gap for it to work properly, unless you can improve the decelleration by using a lower gear - i.e. for more engine braking, to avoid showing brake lights.

I would think that confining yourself to overtakes done on that basis, especially in modern traffic conditions, is going to rule out quite a few overtakes that would otherwise be legitimate. How likely is it that a following driver will be offended by a bit of braking when you arrive in the return gap, so long as you are not too close in front of him? I don't know the right answer, I'm just trying to get a feel for what is reasonable, and once again it is a matter of judgement I suppose.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Oh it works, do it all the time.

Of course you have to be in the right place on the road, at the right time, at the right speed, with the right gear engaged. Mind you when I'm doing it I don't have to worry about the speed limit.
Outside of that, the extra burden of remaining within the speed limit mostly excludes the possibility, so the overtake rarely happens in such circumstances because the above criteria can't be satisfied.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th July 20:43

He's rubbing our noses in it again!

Best wishes all,
Dave.

What are you on about.
I only don't have to comply with the limit at certain times.
You don't worry about it whenever it takes your fancy

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th July 22:51

[GreenV8S]

One advantage of driving a car with huge acceleration on tap, is that you can achieve your desired average speed differential during the overtake by accelerating hard at the start and then slowing down progressively during the manoeuver. This means that you end up with a much lower terminal speed than somebody who achieves the same average speed by accelerating all the way past, so it's much easier to slot back into the stream of traffic.

Did that make any sense at all?

[flemke]

vonhosen,

In your line of work, have you heard the word "crowbar" used in connection with overtakes?
I am told that it is used by certain professionals, with the connotation that that is what one must do if the car ahead is blind to cooperating but an overtake can still be safely executed.
Any thoughts?

[vonhosen]

GreenV8S said:

One advantage of driving a car with huge acceleration on tap, is that you can achieve your desired average speed differential during the overtake by accelerating hard at the start and then slowing down progressively during the manoeuver. This means that you end up with a much lower terminal speed than somebody who achieves the same average speed by accelerating all the way past, so it's much easier to slot back into the stream of traffic.

Did that make any sense at all?

Yes it's what I'm effectively talking about. You are actually off the drive & decelerating on acceleration sense when passing the overtaken vehicle. You reach the required desired speed to match the overtaken vehicle (& the one infront of it) as you slip into your stop over gap with no braking.

[vonhosen]

flemke said:

vonhosen,

In your line of work, have you heard the word "crowbar" used in connection with overtakes?
I am told that it is used by certain professionals, with the connotation that that is what one must do if the car ahead is blind to cooperating but an overtake can still be safely executed.
Any thoughts?

Crowbar isn't a term I've heard of (or used, sounds too aggressive for a term I'd use)

[KB_S1]

VH,

How do you recommend dealing with situations when you have initiated an o/take to make your way through que of traffic, identified the gap you are moving into and found the person you have just passed has decided to close the gap, for whatever reason?
I have noticed this is becoming a regular situation over the last few weeks,perhaps with tourist traffic.

[vonhosen]

KB_S1 said:

VH,

How do you recommend dealing with situations when you have initiated an o/take to make your way through que of traffic, identified the gap you are moving into and found the person you have just passed has decided to close the gap, for whatever reason?
I have noticed this is becoming a regular situation over the last few weeks,perhaps with tourist traffic.

Very hard to give advice to cover that topic here as each set of circumstances will be largely unique due to geography & vehicles involved/positions etc.

It's not a problem that happens for me really , but some people do too often commit themselves to multiple vehicle overtakes far too readily, where they can't be sure the gap is not going to change with the ebb & flow of traffic.

Too much "winging it" goes on.

(I'm not criticising anyone, saying that they don't get ridiculously shut out by people at times, just making a general observation on the lack of consideration/planning that goes into some people's overtakes)

There are generally two opposing views of the scenario & usually both think they are right.

Edited by vonhosen on Friday 21st July 00:17

[TripleS]

vonhosen said:

[quote=TripleS]
I only don't have to comply with the limit at certain times.
You don't worry about it whenever it takes your fancy

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th July 22:51

Quite true, but when I do it I have to bother about trying not to get caught, which is a bit of a nuisance. OK I know the answer to that!

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[7db]

Where's StressedDave with his take-it-on-the-chin advice for dealing with closed gaps? That's one that always runs through my mind before committing to a multiple overtake.