IAM - brisk driving?

[softtop]

Don said:

I have also provided a chauffeur-like-ultra-low-acceleration-ultra-early-smooth-braking drive in the same car to demonstrate I am capable of either as and when I like.

That has always been my idea of how the IAM want you to operate, throw someone around or back in their seat and you are 'doing it wrong'. (ex observer) just like old Sergeants, never give up the title!

Softtop

[BliarOut]

vonhosen said:

BliarOut said:

vonhosen said:

BliarOut said:

When I did an advanced motorcyclists course twenty or so years ago (with off duty police motorcycle riders as instructors) NSL meant No Sodding Limit and if you didn't "make good progress" you failed. If you didn't use the available performance of your motorcycle you were deemed to be afraid of it and weren't put forward for the test.

My, how times have changed. It sounds to me like the IAM are running a slow cycle race these days.

Well it sounds like they were applying the rules they were trained under to you, which of course they shouldn't be doing because they had an exemption when they did it & you don't. (They incidently had no exemption when instructing you either.)

Yes, times have changed.

Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 11th July 21:49

That's how we learn to make good progress, get trained by those who know. Back then NSL actually meant something. How can you learn to drive quickly and safely if you aren't trained to understand how your vehicle performs under power?

It may not have been legal in the true sense of the word but the general rule was stick under the ton on single carriageways and 30 MPH zones were to be rigidly adhered to. The training was good and based on common sence not blind rule adherence. Back then it was known that speed wasn't the major cause of accidents, it was observation and anticipation that were key to staying safe. We were taught to ride to the same system employed by the police.

From what I've read the IAM seems to be about driving miss Daisy. Something like Ride Drive is probably more useful for the sorts of roads I drive on regularly.

No disrespect to those that have done it, but it doesn't sound like it's for me.

There's nobody who can legally instruct you to drive at speeds in excess of the limits without an exemption. Where they do, both you & they commit offences.

You don't need to learn to make "good progress" on road, if that is beyond the level of progress you can legally make on road.

Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 11th July 23:47

There are those of us who are going to travel above the speed limit. That's a reality of life I'm afraid. It's better to be taught to do it in safety and to learn the skills that teach you to back off before trouble occurs, rather than to simply insist "thou shall not break the law".

An example, years ago I was out riding with a load of mates around Matlock. We were getting quite a move on and I was leading. The roads were fast with the occasional nice bend. On a long straight I spotted fresh mud from a tractors tyres, one of the very things we were taught about.... No other vehicles have been along the road since the tractor, so expect to find one lumbering along. I backed off despite it looking clear. Hiding around the next corner was the very tractor they warned us about with some really nasty looking spikes on the back.

I got a lot of "that was lucky" and "what the were you doing slowing down there"? type comments, but I was taught to anticipate when it's safe to make good progress and when you should proceed with caution. That one piece of advice imparted information that I wouldn't otherwise have had when making my decision about setting my speed.

Teach people the skills they need to anticipate what may happen in the real world, not how to remain within the law. Speed limits are the law, they don't teach you how to anticipate.

And FYI, we're in advanced driving now, not SP&L

[Philbes]

quote "Teach people the skills they need to anticipate what may happen in the real world, not how to remain within the law. Speed limits are the law, they don't teach you how to anticipate."

The two aren't mutually exclusive. You can anticipate and stay within the speed limit. You don't have to break the limit to be a driver who can anticipate.

Damn, I sounded like VH then.

[vonhosen]

BliarOut said:

vonhosen said:

BliarOut said:

vonhosen said:

BliarOut said:

When I did an advanced motorcyclists course twenty or so years ago (with off duty police motorcycle riders as instructors) NSL meant No Sodding Limit and if you didn't "make good progress" you failed. If you didn't use the available performance of your motorcycle you were deemed to be afraid of it and weren't put forward for the test.

My, how times have changed. It sounds to me like the IAM are running a slow cycle race these days.

Well it sounds like they were applying the rules they were trained under to you, which of course they shouldn't be doing because they had an exemption when they did it & you don't. (They incidently had no exemption when instructing you either.)

Yes, times have changed.

Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 11th July 21:49

That's how we learn to make good progress, get trained by those who know. Back then NSL actually meant something. How can you learn to drive quickly and safely if you aren't trained to understand how your vehicle performs under power?

It may not have been legal in the true sense of the word but the general rule was stick under the ton on single carriageways and 30 MPH zones were to be rigidly adhered to. The training was good and based on common sence not blind rule adherence. Back then it was known that speed wasn't the major cause of accidents, it was observation and anticipation that were key to staying safe. We were taught to ride to the same system employed by the police.

From what I've read the IAM seems to be about driving miss Daisy. Something like Ride Drive is probably more useful for the sorts of roads I drive on regularly.

No disrespect to those that have done it, but it doesn't sound like it's for me.

There's nobody who can legally instruct you to drive at speeds in excess of the limits without an exemption. Where they do, both you & they commit offences.

You don't need to learn to make "good progress" on road, if that is beyond the level of progress you can legally make on road.

Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 11th July 23:47

There are those of us who are going to travel above the speed limit. That's a reality of life I'm afraid. It's better to be taught to do it in safety and to learn the skills that teach you to back off before trouble occurs, rather than to simply insist "thou shall not break the law".

An example, years ago I was out riding with a load of mates around Matlock. We were getting quite a move on and I was leading. The roads were fast with the occasional nice bend. On a long straight I spotted fresh mud from a tractors tyres, one of the very things we were taught about.... No other vehicles have been along the road since the tractor, so expect to find one lumbering along. I backed off despite it looking clear. Hiding around the next corner was the very tractor they warned us about with some really nasty looking spikes on the back.

I got a lot of "that was lucky" and "what the were you doing slowing down there"? type comments, but I was taught to anticipate when it's safe to make good progress and when you should proceed with caution. That one piece of advice imparted information that I wouldn't otherwise have had when making my decision about setting my speed.

Teach people the skills they need to anticipate what may happen in the real world, not how to remain within the law. Speed limits are the law, they don't teach you how to anticipate.

And FYI, we're in advanced driving now, not SP&L

Observation, Anticipation & Planning though are not skills that are only used above the speed limits. The advice you were given is as relevant under the speed limit, as above. There is no need for them to instruct you at speeds above the speed limit in order for you to receive advice about expecting tractors in such situations.

Advanced driving shouldn't be confused with just driving at higher speeds, that's not what it is about.
Just because someone travels at speeds above the speed limit it doesn't make them an advanced driver & just because someone drives at or below the speed limit it doesn't mean they aren't advanced. Speed has little to do with it, it's the least important of the 4 S's. (One would of hoped your instructors had passed that on, or perhaps they were advanced riders but not actually qualified instructors, there is a big difference.)

Even emergency service drivers are required to comply with the law in order to pass as advanced drivers. It's part of being an advanced driver. If they don't they won't pass.

The IAM are quite clear about their policy in relation to speed whether that be for bike or car (& it's not different). Anything different to that from observers is a personal opinion being expressed, not IAM policy.

Philbes said:

The two aren't mutually exclusive. You can anticipate and stay within the speed limit. You don't have to break the limit to be a driver who can anticipate.

Damn, I sounded like VH then.

Quite correct (I replied before reading your post)

"Learning has taken place".

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 12th July 07:03

[Don]

vonhosen said:

The IAM are quite clear about their policy in relation to speed whether that be for bike or car (& it's not different). Anything different to that from observers is a personal opinion being expressed, not IAM policy.

Absolutely. The IAM would be shut down if they advocated anything other than strict adherence to the law.

A few comments on "speed": Most people who "speed" do so all the time. Once in this habit they fall out of the habit of knowing what the speed limit is. Most Associates at the beginning of the course do not know or get wrong the speed limit when I ask them what it is! This demonstrates terrible observation habits.

By the end of the course a driver with an IAM pass would never speed by accident!

On an IAM Test one must demonstrate the observation skills, car control, anticipation, planning and finesse to know what the limit is and to be able to drive up to it. That, in itself, is surprisingly difficult. It is possible, of course, and anyone with an IAM pass knows how to do it...whatever else they may choose to do.

[TripleS]

ipsg.glf said:

I find these days that I stick rigidly to 20, 30, 40, and 50 limits, to about an indicated 80 on dual-carriageways and motorways and GLF on the rest!

Ah yes C, that reminds me. We must fix another trip out soon.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

Rick448 said:

We'll have to meet up for a drive Dave, hopefully we can have a drive together on the whitby ADUK meet. , i think i am probably quite close to Chris's thoughts, although unfortunately i haven't had chance to drive with him yet.

Yes by all means Rick, and/or I might visit your area if you like. It's always good to see some different terrain.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Edited by TripleS on Thursday 13th July 17:47

[Philbes]

Philbes said:

Don said:

Philbes said:

Perhaps thinking I am not good enough is the right attitude - at least it encourages me to carry on learning!

There is always more to learn. And the process of doing so is great fun!

Any suggestions from anyone as to any course I could now take to further improve my driving? I'm not interested in track driving I just want to be as good a driver as possible (by who's definition?) on the public roads.

I'm now considering RideDrive for further training. I thought their description of the IAM as Institute for Average Drivers was rather unnecessary though.

[ipsg.glf]

Philbes said:

Philbes said:

Don said:

Philbes said:

Perhaps thinking I am not good enough is the right attitude - at least it encourages me to carry on learning!

There is always more to learn. And the process of doing so is great fun!

Any suggestions from anyone as to any course I could now take to further improve my driving? I'm not interested in track driving I just want to be as good a driver as possible (by who's definition?) on the public roads.

I'm now considering RideDrive for further training. I thought their description of the IAM as Institute for Average Drivers was rather unnecessary though.

The last RideDrive guy I was out with classified IAM drivers as "above average" but only just.

[ipsg.glf]

TripleS said:

ipsg.glf said:

I find these days that I stick rigidly to 20, 30, 40, and 50 limits, to about an indicated 80 on dual-carriageways and motorways and GLF on the rest!

Ah yes C, that reminds me. We must fix another trip out soon.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Dave

A great idea. Maybe we can rope in a couple of others. Any takers? Start from Saltburn-ish.

[TripleS]

ipsg.glf said:

TripleS said:

ipsg.glf said:

I find these days that I stick rigidly to 20, 30, 40, and 50 limits, to about an indicated 80 on dual-carriageways and motorways and GLF on the rest!

Ah yes C, that reminds me. We must fix another trip out soon.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Dave

A great idea. Maybe we can rope in a couple of others. Any takers? Start from Saltburn-ish.

It's a bit quiet so far C - looks like just thee and me! Saturday 22 July provisionally - details TBA?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[ipsg.glf]

TripleS said:

ipsg.glf said:

TripleS said:

ipsg.glf said:

I find these days that I stick rigidly to 20, 30, 40, and 50 limits, to about an indicated 80 on dual-carriageways and motorways and GLF on the rest!

Ah yes C, that reminds me. We must fix another trip out soon.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Dave

A great idea. Maybe we can rope in a couple of others. Any takers? Start from Saltburn-ish.

It's a bit quiet so far C - looks like just thee and me! Saturday 22 July provisionally - details TBA?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Sorry, Dave. I posted here before I saw your post in the other place. I think you've got 4 or so, so far?

[TripleS]

ipsg.glf said:

TripleS said:

ipsg.glf said:

TripleS said:

ipsg.glf said:

I find these days that I stick rigidly to 20, 30, 40, and 50 limits, to about an indicated 80 on dual-carriageways and motorways and GLF on the rest!

Ah yes C, that reminds me. We must fix another trip out soon.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Dave

A great idea. Maybe we can rope in a couple of others. Any takers? Start from Saltburn-ish.

It's a bit quiet so far C - looks like just thee and me! Saturday 22 July provisionally - details TBA?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Sorry, Dave. I posted here before I saw your post in the other place. I think you've got 4 or so, so far?

Hiya C, I don't know about you, but I feel there is a bit of confusion here. It looks as if there is some interest in the ADUK Whitby based day (12 August), but what I meant was that our Saltburn based event (22 July?) looks a bit thin at the moment, i.e. just you and me.

Apologies if I've created a muddle. I envisaged two separate events.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[BOF]

Just noticed this thread...to quote from Mind Driving;

"Choosing a safe speed is your own responsibility and cannot be delegated to a speed limit.
More casualties happen in crashes that are below speed limits than above them"
www.skilldriver.org/index.asp?

I recommend this new book for some new approaches to 'thinking' driving.

Has anyone commented that passing the IAM Test (Worthy as it is) is the 'O' level of Advanced Driving and can become a step towards RoSPA and HPC/Cadence and others?

BOF.

Edited by BOF on Friday 14th July 10:14

[Lady Godiva]

BOF said:

Just noticed this thread...to quote from Mind Driving;

"Choosing a safe speed is your own responsibility and cannot be delegated to a speed limit.
More casualties happen in crashes that are below speed limits than above them"
www.skilldriver.org/index.asp?

I recommend this new book for some new approaches to 'thinking' driving.

Has anyone commented that passing the IAM Test (Worthy as it is) is the 'O' level of Advanced Driving and can become a step towards RoSPA and HPC/Cadence and others?

BOF.

Edited by BOF on Friday 14th July 10:14

Dear BOF - could you help me please by describing the main difference between IAM and Rospa. The reason I ask is that everyone (well certainly a lot on here) seem to believe that the two groups are considerably different, and that Rospa is to a higher standard. Unfortunately I have no direct experience of Rospa, but I have seen the training schedule, the certificates, and the comments from those that have passed, and it doesn't appear at first glance to be any different to the IAM.

To someone like myself it would seem that IAM and Rospa (certainly Bronze and Silver) are about the same. Please note that I am not hiding the fact that I am an IAM member (having recently passed). It's just that I would never say the IAM is better than Rospa, but those in Rospa seem to say its 'better' than the IAM.

I would have thought they were the same, certainly as they both subscribe to roadcraft, and the method of teaching is the same. Is there anyone who is a full member of both organisations that can confirm the difference, or is it the usual 'my clubs better than your club' that you boys always seem to want to get into (tut tut!!!).

I'm leaving HPC out of it, as they actively promote the difference and I can understand that. I'm just not sure about the alledged difference between rospa and IAM. This is NOT sour grapes by the way, I would just like to know if there is a genuine difference in quality between the two groups.

[BOF]

Lady G,

I am not knocking the IAM, I have been Observing for 6 years and am out every week.

After I did the IAM Test I got Silver with RoSPA - I found the debrief more detailed and the 3 page written report gave me clues on where I had failed to get Gold.
Did a bit of work in the areas concerned, re-applied and got Gold and maintained Gold to date.

In other words, I found that my sights were raised and the 3 year re-test with RoSPA stops me getting lazy (as does Observing).

As with any interest or hobby, it depends on how far you want to go...after my drives with John Lyon I felt like buying a set of L plates on my way home and I wish I could afford to drive with Hugh Noblett and other experts...there is always more to learn.

BOF.
www.advanced-driving.co.uk/about/skill-level.php
PS - Have a look here...

Edited by BOF on Friday 14th July 14:27

[Lady Godiva]

BOF said:

Lady G,

I am not knocking the IAM, I have been Observing for 6 years and am out every week.

After I did the IAM Test I got Silver with RoSPA - I found the debrief more detailed and the 3 page written report gave me clues on where I had failed to get Gold.
Did a bit of work in the areas concerned, re-applied and got Gold and maintained Gold to date.

In other words, I found that my sights were raised and the 3 year re-test with RoSPA stops me getting lazy (as does Observing).

As with any interest or hobby, it depends on how far you want to go...after my drives with John Lyon I felt like buying a set of L plates on my way home and I wish I could afford to drive with Hugh Noblett and other experts...there is always more to learn.

BOF.
www.advanced-driving.co.uk/about/skill-level.php
PS - Have a look here...

Edited by BOF on Friday 14th July 14:27

Dear BOF - I hope you don't think I was criticising you, or suggesting you are knocking the IAM. It was a genuine question on my part and I respect your input and experience.

In some respects your answer has suggested that both organisations have the same level (to some degree). If you passed IAM, and then went on to achieve Rospa Silver, then surely we can assume that they are the same level (IAM/Rospa Silver). This was my initial belief, and your experience seems to support that.

I fully accept that the 3 page report is a good thing, and that the debrief is very disapointing in the IAM test. However, as soon as I took my test, I wrote down the examiners comments. Not as good as a formal report admittedly, although I have heard comments that the Rospa report is not quite as good as one might think. One candidate was criticised for his reversing, even though he hadn't done any (perhaps the examiner was psychic!). I suspect that some reports are cut and pasted together, with standard comments.

I agree that the 3 year re-test should help to keep the standards high, and the Gold standard does seem very good. HPC and John Lyons et al are different again.

I still believe that the IAM pass is equivalent to the Rospa Silver, and I sometimes think we would be better as Advanced Drivers in extolling our similiarities, rather than our differences. Thank you for your response, as I am always interested in learning more about the other groups. Keep up the good work on the Observing.

Regards
Sally

IAM Pass and very proud of it!!!

Edited to add - I've just realised that as the IAM pass can be at various levels, it could be very good (Rospa Gold) or it could be a lower standard (Rospa Bronze). I think it's the inference that it ALWAYS goes IAM, then Rospa, etc, that I don't like. Maybe it's just me. There again, how many of you boys know how hot a woollen wash should be!!!

Edited by Lady Godiva on Friday 14th July 15:16

[BOF]

Sally,

I am also very proud of the IAM - my dream is that one day it will be the MINIMUM level to get a license...and we can cut the deaths of ten people per day on our roads.

Observing also brings the odd reward - this Associate took me to Brands last December...a few months after I got him through...



BOF.

Edited by BOF on Friday 14th July 15:25

[ipsg.glf]

TripleS said:

ipsg.glf said:

TripleS said:

ipsg.glf said:

TripleS said:

ipsg.glf said:

I find these days that I stick rigidly to 20, 30, 40, and 50 limits, to about an indicated 80 on dual-carriageways and motorways and GLF on the rest!

Ah yes C, that reminds me. We must fix another trip out soon.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Dave

A great idea. Maybe we can rope in a couple of others. Any takers? Start from Saltburn-ish.

It's a bit quiet so far C - looks like just thee and me! Saturday 22 July provisionally - details TBA?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Sorry, Dave. I posted here before I saw your post in the other place. I think you've got 4 or so, so far?

Hiya C, I don't know about you, but I feel there is a bit of confusion here. It looks as if there is some interest in the ADUK Whitby based day (12 August), but what I meant was that our Saltburn based event (22 July?) looks a bit thin at the moment, i.e. just you and me.

Apologies if I've created a muddle. I envisaged two separate events.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Aha! I thought it was just one day. 12 August is OK for me but can't do 22 July. Sorry.

[TripleS]

ipsg.glf said:

Aha! I thought it was just one day. 12 August is OK for me but can't do 22 July. Sorry.

OK, no worry. Thanks for clearing that up, and I'm glad you're OK for 12 August.

Best wishes all,
Dave.