Road positioning in bends
Discussion
I think the rule is wrong - unless you are going down a twisty country lane at a low speed.
Hugging the outer limits of a corner - left hander the broken line right hander the soild line is stupid. If halfway round the bend you do spot something it is far harder to tighten your line than it is to increase it! also if you take the racing line through every corner (keeping to your side of the road)it will always give you the best vision as that is the straigtest route - thus best vision.
Hugging the outer limits of a corner - left hander the broken line right hander the soild line is stupid. If halfway round the bend you do spot something it is far harder to tighten your line than it is to increase it! also if you take the racing line through every corner (keeping to your side of the road)it will always give you the best vision as that is the straigtest route - thus best vision.
The outer edge of the road is more likely to have debris on it, and more likely to have potholes. The V8S wheels are immensely heavy and strong, but I managed to bend one of them by powering hard out of a bend with all the weight on the outer rear wheel and realising at the last moment that the smooth bit of tarmac I was heading for was in fact a deep puddle. The front wheel missed it by a foot or so, the rear wheel hit it good and proper, the puddle turned out to be a hole six inches deep, the impact was collosal. I thought the road was clear and safe for me to use the racing line, I was wrong.
townrow said:
I think the rule is wrong - unless you are going down a twisty country lane at a low speed.
Hugging the outer limits of a corner - left hander the broken line right hander the soild line is stupid. If halfway round the bend you do spot something it is far harder to tighten your line than it is to increase it! also if you take the racing line through every corner (keeping to your side of the road)it will always give you the best vision as that is the straigtest route - thus best vision.
Hugging the outer limits of a corner - left hander the broken line right hander the soild line is stupid. If halfway round the bend you do spot something it is far harder to tighten your line than it is to increase it! also if you take the racing line through every corner (keeping to your side of the road)it will always give you the best vision as that is the straigtest route - thus best vision.
Good luck
Not sure what you meant by that 'woodytvr' but if you want to drive round corners in the dirt and swerving for pedestrians thats up to you - I drive safe and I drive well I do not take the racing line to the extreme I drive smooth with little effort - I am very considerate of other road users - I just wish others where as considerate instead of trying force their 'i know how attitude' on others..... good luck
I think the 'racing line' approach would naturally lead you to run wide on the exit from the corner, and that is something that may not be desirable in all situations. But within the region of tarmac that you're willing to drive on, I think the racing line makes a lot of sense. Still, I can imagine situations where a tight apex might restrict your visibility and you might want to stay wide to get sufficient visibility even if it made the corner tighter than it needed to be.
If you do take the racing line (not to within inches or millimetres as you would on a race track) you see the whole corner in most cases before you reach the apex - you would stay left long into the corner and turn in as the apex became visible and once on the the way to the apex the rest of the coener would become visible - you may gain .005 of a second by remaining on the outer edge on the visibilty count but you would decreasing your ability to avoid an accident of something on the outer limits of the corner it's self - and as I said before it much easier and quicker to to widen your line safley than tighen it - ever heard of lift of steer? Plus if you are on the racing line your car is under less of a stress as it will be the path of least resistance - instaed of teetering on the edge of the road that is hardley used.
I agree with most of that, but I still maintain that visibility (of you, and by you) may require you to adjust your line away from the natural racing line in some situations. In circumstances where this was called for I wouldn't expect to be on the ragged edge of grip, and because it makes the corner tighter it would mean going correspondingly slower to provide an adequate gip reserve. The point I'm trying to make is that there are factors other than maximum speed / minimum cornering force which need to be considered.
By the way I am not advocating taking a sweeping line round the outside of the bend with your wheels in the gutter as the normal way to take a bend - just saying that the racing line isn't necessarily the right answer either.
By the way I am not advocating taking a sweeping line round the outside of the bend with your wheels in the gutter as the normal way to take a bend - just saying that the racing line isn't necessarily the right answer either.
Edited by GreenV8S on Saturday 5th August 17:26
A racing line would work if the bends we drive around were of constant radius. Sadly, most of our early roads were built by railwaymen and their practice was to use contracting radii so as to avoid spilling passengers' tea. So in general taking a racing line will tend to result in lots of extra steering and the risk that you'll exit the bend nicely positioned to receive the oncoming vehicle head-on.
GreenV8S said:
The outer edge of the road is more likely to have debris on it, and more likely to have potholes. The V8S wheels are immensely heavy and strong, but I managed to bend one of them by powering hard out of a bend with all the weight on the outer rear wheel and realising at the last moment that the smooth bit of tarmac I was heading for was in fact a deep puddle. The front wheel missed it by a foot or so, the rear wheel hit it good and proper, the puddle turned out to be a hole six inches deep, the impact was collosal. I thought the road was clear and safe for me to use the racing line, I was wrong.
You must have had the tail hanging out a bit to miss the hole with a front wheel but drop the rear one in it.
Sorry Peter, nit picking again.
I guess I'm a bit envious of those with powerful RWD cars, and the ability to enjoy them.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
StressedDave said:
A racing line would work if the bends we drive around were of constant radius. Sadly, most of our early roads were built by railwaymen and their practice was to use contracting radii so as to avoid spilling passengers' tea.
[more scratching of chin]
Er, wouldn't that work against them when travelling in the opposite direction?
....or were the two tracks not parallel?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
townrow said:
I think the rule is wrong - unless you are going down a twisty country lane at a low speed.
Hugging the outer limits of a corner - left hander the broken line right hander the soild line is stupid. If halfway round the bend you do spot something it is far harder to tighten your line than it is to increase it!
Hugging the outer limits of a corner - left hander the broken line right hander the soild line is stupid. If halfway round the bend you do spot something it is far harder to tighten your line than it is to increase it!
If this is a problem then IMO you're going too fast for the bend. The thing you spot half way round the bend might be a tractor with big spiky things on the back, or the tail end of a queue for roadworks, or the start of a newly "resurfaced" section covered with loose gravel... being able to change line isn't enough, you need to be able to stop before you hit it, which requires you to leave more of a margin.
townrow said:
also if you take the racing line through every corner (keeping to your side of the road)it will always give you the best vision as that is the straigtest route - thus best vision.
Not so. Draw a picture of a bend; then draw two paths, the racing line and the wide-entry line; draw a series of tangents to the inside of the bend from a series of points along both lines, and project them until they hit the opposite side of the road. It will be obvious that the tangents from the wide-entry lines reach further down the road than the tangents from the same points along the racing lines.
I make no claim to be any kind of cornering god
Lines through the bend are something I'm practising and the wide-entry method can feel a bit unnatural, but when I get it right it's smoother, safer, and in practical terms faster because the better vision not only allows an earlier view of obstacles, it allows more efficient assessment of the shape of the bend so the exit line can be planned sooner. Another advantage of the wide-entry line is when taking a right-hander on a bike you're less likely to be hanging your head over the centreline
(But of course the crap-on-the-edges problem is of more moment.) There is nothing wrong with sacrificing n/s position if the surface is poor. It's what you should be doing, I don't think anybody is suggesting you should be in shale or potholes.
Of course if you are having to sacrifice position for safety, you will probably have to be sacrificing speed for it also, as you have less vision & are moving towards an area that is more likley to produce conflict with oncomers.
Of course if you are having to sacrifice position for safety, you will probably have to be sacrificing speed for it also, as you have less vision & are moving towards an area that is more likley to produce conflict with oncomers.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 5th August 21:40
Think about how you take a racing line - I'm sure you take a wide entry or am I mistaken - and as finishing on the wrong side of the road in on coming traffic I would only presume you are stupid as clearly that would be a dangerous line and I did state in my earlier post that you should remain on your side of the road - I'm no racing god, I have no racing experience other than a few times karting and the odd track day - but I have survived in London as bike courier for 2 years and never had an accident that was my fault in 14 years of driving - IMO if everyone stopped thinking about how they are driving and concentrated how best to fit into the enviroment they are in with as little disruption as possible to others using the roads - accidents would fall and traffic jams would be thing a thing of the past - but unfortunatley there will always be one idiot stuck in outside lane doing 70 exactley, the old guy doing 25mph in a 50, the bloke who shoots up the inside to jump the que then block the other lane whilst waiting to get in, the one that pushes in instead of filtering, the person who almost missed their junction and in braking so hard and swerving to get in causing stop start traffic ques etc etc etc.
Safe Driving is about reading others and the road - hugging the outside of a corner for a better look is stupid and requires more energy than it's worth!
Safe Driving is about reading others and the road - hugging the outside of a corner for a better look is stupid and requires more energy than it's worth!
townrow said:
Think about how you take a racing line - I'm sure you take a wide entry or am I mistaken - and as finishing on the wrong side of the road in on coming traffic I would only presume you are stupid as clearly that would be a dangerous line and I did state in my earlier post that you should remain on your side of the road - I'm no racing god, I have no racing experience other than a few times karting and the odd track day - but I have survived in London as bike courier for 2 years and never had an accident that was my fault in 14 years of driving - IMO if everyone stopped thinking about how they are driving and concentrated how best to fit into the enviroment they are in with as little disruption as possible to others using the roads - accidents would fall and traffic jams would be thing a thing of the past - but unfortunatley there will always be one idiot stuck in outside lane doing 70 exactley, the old guy doing 25mph in a 50, the bloke who shoots up the inside to jump the que then block the other lane whilst waiting to get in, the one that pushes in instead of filtering, the person who almost missed their junction and in braking so hard and swerving to get in causing stop start traffic ques etc etc etc.
Safe Driving is about reading others and the road - hugging the outside of a corner for a better look is stupid and requires more energy than it's worth!
Safe Driving is about reading others and the road - hugging the outside of a corner for a better look is stupid and requires more energy than it's worth!
Track & road are different disciplines. On the track you haven't got potential oncomers.
Where you can take the same lines as track on road, is where you have an uninterrupted view of the road surface (both sides) through the curved path.
On road you shouldn't be coming off the wide line (where you aren't having to sacrifice position because of n/s dangers) until you can see both sides of the road fully, otherwise you are heading towards potential danger (possible unseen oncomers because you haven't got full view of the opposing carriageway).
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with coming off the line if you have vision of the whole road.
In applying those principles on road though, it will mean that you don't end up in the middle of the road in anything other than a very shallow bend (where you can see both sides of the road) & there is no benefit doing the full apex. Tight bends with interrupted vision, will mean you end up holding the wide line, while tight bends where you can see the full road will end up with a full apex.
When I talk about taking the 'racing line' on the road, I mean within the part of the road that I'm prepared to drive on. This basically means 'my' side of the road, minus the parts that I choose to avoid and my safety margins, and plus any parts of the other side of the road that I'm prepared to use. I'm definitely not talking about running from curb to curb or anything like that.
Oh, and the 'late apex' line that works so well with a powerful rear wheel drive car from the point of view of performance also works very well from the point of view of safety - you get good positioning for visibility, low entry speed and a late commitment to accelerate out of the corner. It makes the whole thing very natural and comfortable.
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