Road positioning in bends

[willibetz]

Big Fat F'er said:

boxsey said:

This is a very informative and thought provoking thread....well apart from some of the stuff on page 4. .

No idea what you mean, Boxsey.

...

BFF

Without presuming to speak for boxsey, perhaps I can venture an opinion.

This forum provides a great resource to those interested in discussing advanced driving and exchanging ideas.

But it's blighted when, instead of developing a cogent argument based on personal experience, a contributor choses to lean on dogma like a crutch, resort to the debating techniques of an infant school playground and push their (sometimes misinformed or poorly thought through) ideas to the arrogant exclusion of any alternative view.

It's a particular shame when, due to the unique way in which the interweb works, that contributor can have little idea of the credentials or background of other participants and therefore may be missing out on an opportunity to develop.

And it's particularly incredible when we're asked to believe that a contributor who operates on such a short fuse, frequently resorting to bullying and name calling, is a paragon of virtuous demeanour when they take the wheel.

Just my take...

All the best,
WilliBetz

[Big Fat F'er]

Willibetz - bit of a long post, 'cos I'm waiting to go out very shortly, and may not be back for some time.

willibetz said:

Big Fat F'er said:

boxsey said:

This is a very informative and thought provoking thread....well apart from some of the stuff on page 4. .

No idea what you mean, Boxsey.
BFF

Without presuming to speak for boxsey, perhaps I can venture an opinion.

You most certainly can, dear Willibetz. Different opinions (even those we don't like) are the ones we can learn from.

willibetz said:

This forum provides a great resource to those interested in discussing advanced driving and exchanging ideas.

With you so far, full on agreement here.

willibetz said:

But it's blighted when, instead of developing a cogent argument based on personal experience, a contributor choses to lean on dogma like a crutch, resort to the debating techniques of an infant school playground and push their (sometimes misinformed or poorly thought through) ideas to the arrogant exclusion of any alternative view.

Eh up, I think I can see where this is going. By the way, you can have personal experience and still use dogma as a tool, but carry on. Also, just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they are excluding your viewpoint, or your right to it. It also works both ways (but you'll probably find that harder to agree with)

willibetz said:

It's a particular shame when, due to the unique way in which the interweb works, that contributor can have little idea of the credentials or background of other participants and therefore may be missing out on an opportunity to develop.

Absolutely. We can have no idea of anyones credentials. You or I could claim antthing, and no one would know the truth about either of us. Or did you just mean the other chappie again.

willibetz said:

And it's particularly incredible when we're asked to believe that a contributor who operates on such a short fuse, frequently resorting to bullying and name calling, is a paragon of virtuous demeanour when they take the wheel.

I don't suppose your reading things into the deabate that aren't there though, are you. Nope, I didn't think you would be. I't usually the other fella's fault. As for bullying and name calling....how old are you. As a matter of interest, I dont have a short fuse. I have extreme violent agression during certain contacts, but it's always controlled.

willibetz said:

Just my take....

And an exteremely valauble and worthwhile one at that.

willibetz said:

All the best,
WilliBetz

To you as well, Sir. No hard feelings on my part.

The thing is, Willibetz, some folk on here take any criticism as a personal attack. Maybe, just maybe, they ought to try and accept differing styles and approaches. Yes, even the ones they don't like, understand or appreciate.

Because of my circumstances, and situation, and upbringing, I react in a certain way. So do you, even if you don't think so. So does Green. So do all the others. You put yourself across as oh so grown up, but you seem to get upset by a bit of harmless name calling. It doesn't bother me (it comes both ways) why on earth should it bother you. If it really does upset you, tell me, I won't do it. That just sounds a bit babyish that's all.

Re the dogma and crutch, I always laugh when I read you writing that. Can't you see that you do it just as much as anyone. So does everyone on here, it's just how it's put across that differs. For example, I disagree with TripleS on lots of things. He disagrees with me. So what. We discuss our differences in our own style. He hasn't changed my opinions yet, but he hasn't changed his own either.

My position has always been clear. The System and Roadcraft are a good system. It doesn't need you to like or approve it, to be good. It's been developed by drivers who (reading what you've written previously) are much better than you currently are. You may prefer a much more sycophantic approach, but how would that help you me or anyone else.

You have your own system, which may be as good. But it may not be. Who knows. Even if that upsets you. Surely you are not so pretentious that you think that everything you do is a top technique.

So, each to his own. I put things across in a certain way, and that ways been developed because of what I do, with whom, and how important it is for them to learn quickly and effectively. The agression goes with it. So does the piss taking.

Most of the scuffers and scroats I know are man enough to take it. You should be as well. Remember, it takes all sorts to make the world go around. So lets have a group hug, stop taking ourselves so seriously, and realise there are some important things in life, and driving is fun however you do it.

By the way, the challenge still exists. I'll change when you show me why the System is wrong, and what the better way is. So get rid of some of your dogma, throw your crutches away, and get to it.

BFF

[willibetz]

Thanks for taking the time to think about my opinion, and reply in detail.

The fact that I find your debating style to be confrontational and childish doesn't mean that I necessarily disagree with the content. It just makes it harder to concentrate on the content. For whatever reason, I admit that I still can't see past your "Roadcraft - good. Outside Roadcraft - bad" philosophy (be it implied or inferred).

I accept your comment that all opinons are informed by dogma and received wisdom. But that doesn't mean that dogma is the be-all-and-end-all of the art of driving. It would be a shame to miss out on the occasional insightful and thought provoking comment that stems from personal experience or a contrarian view. I'd rather mull these contributions over than dismiss them, out-of-hand, because they don't fit with accepted wisdom.

Big Fat F'er said:

By the way, the challenge still exists. I'll change when you show me why the System is wrong, and what the better way is. So get rid of some of your dogma, throw your crutches away, and get to it.

BFF

I don't believe the System is wrong, and hope I haven't said as much.

But I do think that a method of driving that can be adapted according to car and circumstance is potentially even better. That's why I'm happy to discuss, use or observe (appropriately used) techniques such as heel and toe gearchanging, sequential changing, trail braking, left foot braking, offsiding on the approach to nearside bends and others too numerous to mention.

All of these techniques may be somewhat on the fringes of acceptability as far as your local advanced driving organisation is concerned. But that doesn't make them wrong. I've been fortunate and privileged to share time with and have my driving observed by some highly respected drivers (including people you profess to respect), and I don't ever recall them denouncing a technique just because it wasn't documented in Roadcraft.

All the best,
WilliBetz

[Big Fat F'er]

willibetz said:

Thanks for taking the time to think about my opinion, and reply in detail.

Nay problemo. I like to hear your opinion. Obviously I respect my right to disagree with it, you with mine, thats as it is.

willibetz said:

For whatever reason, I admit that I still can't see past your "Roadcraft - good. Outside Roadcraft - bad" philosophy (be it implied or inferred).

I've never said that, and it does you no favours to keep on insisting that I have . What I've said is "Roadcraft - good" as in it does what it says on the tin. "Outside Roadcraft - may be good, but may be bad". I believe, and can demonstrate, tnat nothing in roadcraft is bad, but some things that some drivers do are bad.

willibetz said:

I accept your comment that all opinons are informed by dogma and received wisdom.

Not everybody does though. They always think that the other guy is wrong, 'cos he won't change. But they don't realsie that they won't change either. Quite amusing really.

willibetz said:

I'd rather mull these contributions over than dismiss them, out-of-hand, because they don't fit with accepted wisdom.

I don't dismiss them out of hand. I may dismiss something because my experience has shown me otherwise, or because of my beliefs, or rules forced on me, but it's not out of hand. I accept some things said on here, just not everything.

willibetz said:

Big Fat F'er said:

By the way, the challenge still exists. I'll change when you show me why the System is wrong, and what the better way is. So get rid of some of your dogma, throw your crutches away, and get to it.BFF

I don't believe the System is wrong, and hope I haven't said as much.

But I do think that a method of driving that can be adapted according to car and circumstance is potentially even better. That's why I'm happy to discuss, use or observe (appropriately used) techniques such as heel and toe gearchanging, sequential changing, trail braking, left foot braking, offsiding on the approach to nearside bends and others too numerous to mention.

Like you, I'm happy to discuss, use or observe the above. I don't think they are appropriate in all circumstances, and I certainly don't think that they always give the level of Safety that the System does. Where have I refused to discuss it? Lets face it, I've said I'm prepared to change when you can show me better. Doesn't sound dognmatic to me.

willibetz said:

All of these techniques may be somewhat on the fringes of acceptability as far as your local advanced driving organisation is concerned. But that doesn't make them wrong.

I haven't said it does. They may be wrong because they are used innapropriately. For example, the racing line is not the safest line round a corner for standard road driving, within the constraints of the law, bearing in mind your responsibilities as an advanced driver. So its the use in specific circumstances that makes it wrong, not the method itself.

willibetz said:

I've been fortunate and privileged to share time with and have my driving observed by some highly respected drivers (including people you profess to respect), and I don't ever recall them denouncing a technique just because it wasn't documented in Roadcraft.

Depends on what you were talking about, and attempting to learn or develop. Just to emphasise it again for you, I've never denounced a technique simply because it wasn't in Raodcraft (I assume you mean the book). However I, and also the drivers you mention, should denounce some techniques as innapropriate for some circumstances. Most of the ones I know certainly would. For example, would you recommend J or Y turns as recommended practice for all 'normal' road driving situations. Doesn't make them bad. Just used innapropriately.

willibetz said:

All the best, WilliBetz

And you matey. Let's face it, which are we most likely to learn with. The ones who question us, or the ones that just agree with you.

BFF

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Sunday 3rd December 19:13

[boxsey]

Big Fat F'er said:

boxsey said:

This is a very informative and thought provoking thread....well apart from some of the stuff on page 4. .

No idea what you mean, Boxsey.

boxsey said:

I discovered the 'green bend line' through the Ridedrive website about a year ago and feel far safer for now using it (I've got over the uncomfortable stage). It allows me to drive quicker than I could before because I can see more easily what hazards may lie ahead.

Well said (good site innit). Safer and quicker. Fick me, the green line must be okay then.

BFF

Just to clarify what I meant (although Willi Betz has already done it for me, almost). My use of was to indicate that the spat on page 4 was detracting from an excellent thread. However, I can understand why BFF rose to the bait as the attack by the other chap did appear to be somewhat personal. This is a common occurence on forums because written words on their own are not very expressive and meanings can get lost. Fortunately, from what I've seen so far, this forum suffers much less from the falling out syndrome and posters are more ready to do group hugs and get on with the subject matter.

To now go back on topic, I would like to admit to an embaressing moment on the road this weekend. While using the 'green line' method, I was so focussed on the disappearing point of a right hand bend that I didn't notice that the road had significantly narrowed, moved too far over to the left and clipped the kerb stone! Fortunately, I was in the wife's 4x4 so only scuffed a tyre. It would have been a minimum of a kerbed alloy if I had been in my own car. I suppose that just serves to show that in certain situations (narrow lane) your bend line defaults to the middle of the lane.

[Big Fat F'er]

boxsey said:

...in certain situations (narrow lane) your bend line defaults to the middle of the lane.

Boxsey - is it more a case of the position remains the same to the edge, but that this will take you near to the centre occasionally?

It's nearly the same thing, but keeps the emphasis on the positioning to the edge, rather than choosing the edge OR the centre.

Well said though, and big up for admitting it.

BFF