Roundabout lanes

[srbl]

Hi all, I'm new here and I was hoping for a little advice.

When I learnt to drive, I was always taught that if you come up to sequential junctions, you deal with one after the other and choose your approach lane based on what you're going to do at the first junction you reach.

There's a mini-roundabout near me which always clogs up with traffic when the lights on the next junction go red. When I approach this mini, I usually want to take the first exit and then turn right, so accordingly I approach in the left lane and then exit on the right to turn right onto the main road. I did this this evening, and I nearly had a 4x4 drive into the side of me as he turned across from the right hand approach lane to the right hand lane on the first exit. He then followed me about 6" off my bumper flashing his lights, beeping his horn and making rather unfriendly hand gestures...

Here's a rather rough diagram - I'm approaching from the bottom and turning to the left, and then towards the top.



Now, was I right or was he right?

Thanks in advance!

[vonhosen]

In the absence of lane markings to teh contrary on approach to the roundabout, if you wish to turn left (first exit) at that roundabout, you should be in the nearside lane on approach.

[GreenV8S]

I would say it isn't categorically wrong to go straght on from the left hand lane, or turn left from the right hand lane, in that example. It's liable to put you into conflict with other drivers so it's something that would nee care, but depending where the rest of the traffic around you was going either route might be reasonable. If you changed lane as you left the roundabout on the assumption that the car behind you wasn't turning left and cut him up as a result, I'd say you were partially to blame for the conflict. I'd say he was partially to blame too, because turning left at one roundabout then right at the next is a reasonably forseeable thing to do, and what you did seems like a perfectly reasonable way to do that. At the end of the day I'd say it was a case of misunderstanding and neither of you were completely at fault or completely blameless.

Edited by GreenV8S on Thursday 7th September 18:31

[EmmaP]

It sounds like you were doing everything right. That seems an awkward junction, being divided into a left turn only lane and a straight through lane upon exit, though you had local knowledge in your favour. If you were indicating your intension to take the first exit - and you were, as you indicate, in the nearside lane approaching the roundabout - you were doing everything right. It sounds like the 4x4 driver tried to cut into your lane. If he hit you up the rear it would have been his fault. Good that you kept your cool. Sadly there are plenty of aggressive drivers on the roads. They really aren't worth ruining your evening for.

Happy motoring!

[vonhosen]

GreenV8S said:

I would say it isn't categorically wrong to go straght on from the left hand lane, or turn left from the right hand lane, in that example.

I'd agree that in the absence of marking to the contrary it is quite acceptable to go straight on from lane one, but with that in mind anyone wishing to take exit one on the roundabout, should be in the nearside lane. Anyone in lane two coming into conflict with those in lane one, while trying to take the first exit, may commit an offence of careless/inconsiderate driving. If you wish to take an exit across the path of others, it is your responsibility to make sure that you can make it to the exit safely in good time.

[Beggarall]

vanhosen said:

Anyone in lane two coming into conflict with those in lane one, while trying to take the first exit, may commit an offence of careless/inconsiderate driving

I think it is a pity some of us think about these issues in terms of "offences" where the real problem lies with poor road/street planning and signing. I can think of several similar junctions in my locality where conflict arises when trying to negotiate L then R turns in quick succession where other road users in the wrong lane initially consider they have gained right of way by effectively overtaking on the first left turn. Not helped by inpatience and poor look-out generally. I am sure it wouldn't happen if you had a blue lamp on the top of your car - assuming they have seen it.

[vonhosen]

Beggarall said:

vanhosen said:

Anyone in lane two coming into conflict with those in lane one, while trying to take the first exit, may commit an offence of careless/inconsiderate driving

I think it is a pity some of us think about these issues in terms of "offences" where the real problem lies with poor road/street planning and signing. I can think of several similar junctions in my locality where conflict arises when trying to negotiate L then R turns in quick succession where other road users in the wrong lane initially consider they have gained right of way by effectively overtaking on the first left turn. Not helped by inpatience and poor look-out generally. I am sure it wouldn't happen if you had a blue lamp on the top of your car - assuming they have seen it.

It's a simple guideline for roundabouts from Rule 162 Highway Code.

162: Signals and position, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise.

When taking the first exit

* signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
* keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

[GreenV8S]

vonhosen said:

Anyone in lane two coming into conflict with those in lane one, while trying to take the first exit, may commit an offence of careless/inconsiderate driving.

In principle I think I agree, and I think it's obvious and widely recognised that the left most lanes are for taking the earlier exits and the right most lanes are for taking the later exits and the middlish lanes are for the ones in between, but exactly where the split comes in the absence of explicit signage can be a grey area. I think there's an informal protocol which determines where the spit between left, right, straight on occurs based on the geometry of the roundabout and the proportion of traffic taking each route. If 90% of the traffic is turning left then it would be reasonable for people to use the left lane for turning left, and the right lane for left, right or straight on. On the other hand if 90% is turning right then it would be reasonable to use the left lane for left, straight or right, and the right lane for right. The problem is that sometimes it's ambiguous. And of course traffic doesn't always present you to the roundabout in the ideal lane and you have to negotiate the hazard as a whole as best you can.

I think the over-riding rule that covers (or should cover) all situations of this sort is that you should aim not to surprise anyone and not to be surprised by anyone. And that means signalling clearly where there's any possibility that people around you might not know where you're going. It's quite hard to have an accident without somebody being surprised.

[Beggarall]

vonhosen said:

It's a simple guideline for roundabouts from Rule 162 Highway Code

Quite, but my understanding from the original post was that this had been completed correctly taking him into the inside lane, but then wishing to make an immediate right found that someone from the outside lane was on his tail and getting aggravated. 360 degree eyeballs and spacial awareness needed methinks rather than pointing the judicial finger.

[7db]

srbl said:

Now, was I right or was he right?

My understanding of how blame works in courts is that on roundabouts, it's everyone's fault. The priorities just aren't clearly defined well enough (except on entry - and even there you need to T-bone the entrant to be clear, not clip his starboard quarter).

Follow Stressed Dave's roundabout maxim -- don't go round with anyone else.

[vonhosen]

Beggarall said:

vonhosen said:

It's a simple guideline for roundabouts from Rule 162 Highway Code

Quite, but my understanding from the original post was that this had been completed correctly taking him into the inside lane, but then wishing to make an immediate right found that someone from the outside lane was on his tail and getting aggravated. 360 degree eyeballs and spacial awareness needed methinks rather than pointing the judicial finger.

My understanding is that the OP was in lane 1 wanting to turn left. He did so & in doing so entered the new road, quite legally into lane 2.

Other vehicle approached roundabout in lane 2 intending to take first exit (wrong place to be if you want to take the first exit, unless markings dictate otherwise) & then on seeing OP take up a position in lane 2 of new road became aggressive (again wrong thing to do).

OP asked who was in the right, I have given my personal opinion, for the scenario I have described from above.
Of course if OP was in lane 1 of new road & wanted to change lane into lane 2 infront of another, then he has to make sure that it is safe for him to do so or he could be the one in the wrong.

Police observing such driving would hopefully "educate" such drivers, with what ever disposal option they consider appropriate for the circumstances, including where "they" consider appropriate the judicial finger.

Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 9th September 09:30

[Beggarall]

Thanks VH - your postings always appreciated and I admire the way you can see things so clearly black and white while I always tend to look for the grey exceptions to the rule - I guess it makes these forums more fun

[srbl]

vonhosen said:

My understanding is that the OP was in lane 1 wanting to turn left. He did so & in doing so entered the new road, quite legally into lane 2.

Other vehicle approached roundabout in lane 2 intending to take first exit (wrong place to be if you want to take the first exit, unless markings dictate otherwise) & then on seeing OP take up a position in lane 2 of new road became aggressive (again wrong thing to do).

That's correct - I was in lane 1 approaching the roundabout and turned left into lane 2 of the new road.

Thanks for the clarification everyone, I was worried that my understanding was incorrect and he was right - glad I'm not losing the plot already!

[Lady Godiva]

srbl said:

Thanks for the clarification everyone, I was worried that my understanding was incorrect and he was right - glad I'm not losing the plot already!

Dear srbl - I'm glad you are okay.

For me, I'm less worried about who exactly is right or wrong, than the resultant anger. After a simple mistake, this other driver then acted aggressively, and drove dangerously, affecting you and other road users.

I would like to know how we can prevent this. I personally don't think that Road Rage is a prevelant as some would have us believe, bit it is definitely out there.

How can we deal with it. What do the experts recommend we do if we face this sort of aggression. Because even if you get it right this time, there will always be another time.

Regards
Sally

P.S. did he just stop in the end, or take another turning.

[Major Bloodnok]

It's my experience that those who get most irate are generally those are in the wrong (and, I suspect, know it).

[srbl]

Lady Godiva said:

P.S. did he just stop in the end, or take another turning.

Well, he followed me all the way to the next roundabout where I take a right turn, and initially he moved out into the right-hand lane to follow me, but then changed his mind and dropped back into the left to go straight on. I was a little worried when he switched lane with me, I'm just glad he thought better of it!

[wbr4bruce]

Can't fault your approach to the roundabout, the other driver may have assumed that having a larger vehicle gave him priority and took offence when you did not realise his importance. As for his follow up behaviour, this confirms that his choice of vehicle is more to do with boosting his inflated ego than any practical benefit, as he used the vehicle to try and intimidate you. Well done for keeping your cool as there would not have been any rational discussion with that chap. Such a pity you were not accompanied by someone who could record their registration number and details of the incident before phoning the police.

[7db]

Best to get people will small willies in front of you, I find. You might consider waving him past.