Engine Braking
Discussion
waremark said:
Lady Godiva said:
I'm about to put the Tuna on for tea for the Lump of Lard who got my hand, but not my mind!!!
Does he have to put up with this abuse all the time? Does he know? Does he mind? Am I on the wrong forum for this type of discussion??
Posted by a lump of lard waiting for a delicious dinner!
Yes he does.
Probably not, he is too damn stupid.
He would mind if he did know, but he doesn't.
There were two sayings I got, one from the idiot that took my name and gave me his, and the other was my Mother.
The first was "you would if you loved me", the second was "you will regret this". I listened to one, and ignored the other.
I got it the wrong way around.
Regards
Sally.
mph999 said:
combover said:
Just a question on the liabilities involved.
My question is this, if I keep doing this, what are the consequences for my car (gearbox, clutch, engine etc)?
Also, is this a genuinely safe alternative to putting the anchors on and change down when you need to, i.e. when the change down will have a minimal impact on revs?
My question is this, if I keep doing this, what are the consequences for my car (gearbox, clutch, engine etc)?
Also, is this a genuinely safe alternative to putting the anchors on and change down when you need to, i.e. when the change down will have a minimal impact on revs?
In answer to your question, if you are mathing revs when changing down, there should be no adverse effect on the car. In fact, apart from being smother, you are reducing wear on the clutch by doing so.
Personally, I use the brakes and then change, but usually use your method for the gearchange. If I'm say going to select second gear at anything above 10mph or so, I'll double de-clutch. eg. selecting 2nd at say 30 puts a hell of a strain on the syncro rings in the gearbox, double de-clutching reduces, if not eliminates this.
Why select 2nd at such I high speed I hear somebody ask - well, I may want to "balance the car" on entry to a bend and then have maximum acceleration available, perhaps for an overtake (+ it's fun
) Martin
Smashing, thanks for the reply.
Thanks Sally and all...
...I do understand the concept of acceleration sense and that one can drive with less use of the brakes especially with very good obs. To me the technique loses its appeal when it becomes an end in its own right. When the benefits, whilst possibly and probably laudable are not necc to do with Advanced Driving.
What on earth am I on about? Take the example of fuel consumption. If this were the aim of my good driving, then I would drive a polo diesel or toyota prius to get 70 mpg plus. No I drive a 3.6l TVR. What about the benefits of brakes not wearing? Cost of pads is miniscule and the brakes dont really like not being used.
So re-looking at the quote, part of it says "A lack of acceleration sense causes many common mistakes: for example, accelerating hard away from a junction and then having to brake sharply to slow to the speed of the vehicles in fornt; or accelerating to move up behind a slower moving vehicle and then having to brake before overtaking."
Now to my mind that is not the same as minimising the use of the brakes by only employing engine braking.
My aim in advanced driving is to make good, safe, legal progress, driving smoothly and keeping my passengers comfortable if I have any aboard.
Hope that makes sense as a different perspective! But each to her or his own of course :-))
Graham
...I do understand the concept of acceleration sense and that one can drive with less use of the brakes especially with very good obs. To me the technique loses its appeal when it becomes an end in its own right. When the benefits, whilst possibly and probably laudable are not necc to do with Advanced Driving.
What on earth am I on about? Take the example of fuel consumption. If this were the aim of my good driving, then I would drive a polo diesel or toyota prius to get 70 mpg plus. No I drive a 3.6l TVR. What about the benefits of brakes not wearing? Cost of pads is miniscule and the brakes dont really like not being used.
So re-looking at the quote, part of it says "A lack of acceleration sense causes many common mistakes: for example, accelerating hard away from a junction and then having to brake sharply to slow to the speed of the vehicles in fornt; or accelerating to move up behind a slower moving vehicle and then having to brake before overtaking."
Now to my mind that is not the same as minimising the use of the brakes by only employing engine braking.
My aim in advanced driving is to make good, safe, legal progress, driving smoothly and keeping my passengers comfortable if I have any aboard.
Hope that makes sense as a different perspective! But each to her or his own of course :-))
Graham
Edited by gridgway on Monday 18th September 22:20
gridgway said:
Thanks Sally and all...
...I do understand the concept of acceleration sense and that one can drive with less use of the brakes especially with very good obs. To me the technique loses its appeal when it becomes an end in its own right. When the benefits, whilst possibly and probably laudable are not necc to do with Advanced Driving.
...I do understand the concept of acceleration sense and that one can drive with less use of the brakes especially with very good obs. To me the technique loses its appeal when it becomes an end in its own right. When the benefits, whilst possibly and probably laudable are not necc to do with Advanced Driving.
You are right.
It doesn't do to be become too focused on one aspect to the detriment of all others.
We should be aiming to use acceleration sense as part of our speed loss, because it offers both smooth speed loss & helps in a smoother transition between acceleration & braking. How much of it we use will be dependent on circumstances. On fairly open hazards where the differential bewteen our terminal speed between hazards & speed of entry into the second hazard isn't large, we should aim to just do the speed loss on acceleration sense. But where the differential is much larger & it is obvious we are going to have to do some braking, we may as well make more progress to the hazard & use more braking to get the speed right for entry (still using some acceleration sense for the smooth transition). If we try to use acceleration sense only in all circumstances, we'll end up sacrificing too much progress. Good driving isn't only about physical car balance, it's about good balance between all the elements we are attempting to achieve in our drives.
vonhosen said:
gridgway said:
Thanks Sally and all...
...I do understand the concept of acceleration sense and that one can drive with less use of the brakes especially with very good obs. To me the technique loses its appeal when it becomes an end in its own right. When the benefits, whilst possibly and probably laudable are not necc to do with Advanced Driving.
...I do understand the concept of acceleration sense and that one can drive with less use of the brakes especially with very good obs. To me the technique loses its appeal when it becomes an end in its own right. When the benefits, whilst possibly and probably laudable are not necc to do with Advanced Driving.
You are right.
It doesn't do to be become too focused on one aspect to the detriment of all others.
We should be aiming to use acceleration sense as part of our speed loss, because it offers both smooth speed loss & helps in a smoother transition between acceleration & braking. How much of it we use will be dependent on circumstances. On fairly open hazards where the differential bewteen our terminal speed between hazards & speed of entry into the second hazard isn't large, we should aim to just do the speed loss on acceleration sense. But where the differential is much larger & it is obvious we are going to have to do some braking, we may as well make more progress to the hazard & use more braking to get the speed right for entry (still using some acceleration sense for the smooth transition). If we try to use acceleration sense only in all circumstances, we'll end up sacrificing too much progress. Good driving isn't only about physical car balance, it's about good balance between all the elements we are attempting to achieve in our drives.
I hope you don't mind my saying so, but isn't that just stating the obvious? Or has driving become so bad in a general sense that one needs to do this?
If I am going down a road, which for argument's sake is straight, then with use of smooth but steady braking I could do, say 60mph. With the use of only the gears, in order to stay on top of peotential hazards and stay within the same margin of safety, I would probably only do, say 40mph. To go slower, in this sense at least, would require more concerntarion from me, which as you say could be to the detrminet of other aspects of my driving at that particular time. That much is obvious.
My main point was merely that, if I am keeping my car stable by the manouvre, disregarding the old mantra 'brakes to slow, gears to go', then there may not be anything inherently wrong in what I am doing.
Or would you like to make a case to the contrary?
combover said:
vonhosen said:
gridgway said:
Thanks Sally and all...
...I do understand the concept of acceleration sense and that one can drive with less use of the brakes especially with very good obs. To me the technique loses its appeal when it becomes an end in its own right. When the benefits, whilst possibly and probably laudable are not necc to do with Advanced Driving.
...I do understand the concept of acceleration sense and that one can drive with less use of the brakes especially with very good obs. To me the technique loses its appeal when it becomes an end in its own right. When the benefits, whilst possibly and probably laudable are not necc to do with Advanced Driving.
You are right.
It doesn't do to be become too focused on one aspect to the detriment of all others.
We should be aiming to use acceleration sense as part of our speed loss, because it offers both smooth speed loss & helps in a smoother transition between acceleration & braking. How much of it we use will be dependent on circumstances. On fairly open hazards where the differential bewteen our terminal speed between hazards & speed of entry into the second hazard isn't large, we should aim to just do the speed loss on acceleration sense. But where the differential is much larger & it is obvious we are going to have to do some braking, we may as well make more progress to the hazard & use more braking to get the speed right for entry (still using some acceleration sense for the smooth transition). If we try to use acceleration sense only in all circumstances, we'll end up sacrificing too much progress. Good driving isn't only about physical car balance, it's about good balance between all the elements we are attempting to achieve in our drives.
I hope you don't mind my saying so, but isn't that just stating the obvious? Or has driving become so bad in a general sense that one needs to do this?
If I am going down a road, which for argument's sake is straight, then with use of smooth but steady braking I could do, say 60mph. With the use of only the gears, in order to stay on top of peotential hazards and stay within the same margin of safety, I would probably only do, say 40mph. To go slower, in this sense at least, would require more concerntarion from me, which as you say could be to the detrminet of other aspects of my driving at that particular time. That much is obvious.
My main point was merely that, if I am keeping my car stable by the manouvre, disregarding the old mantra 'brakes to slow, gears to go', then there may not be anything inherently wrong in what I am doing.
Or would you like to make a case to the contrary?
You say what I am saying is obvious, but you'd be surprised how few people do best utilise the vehicle as per roadcraft. Braking shouldn't be steady, it should be progressive in application.
Strictly wrong & right depends on the code you are driving to. What you are describing wouldn't be good "roadcraft". But if it is merely for your own fun & gratification, as long as it's safe & legal what does it matter ?
For me, approaching a roundabout & trying to do it going down through the box without any brakes, while not necessarily unduly destabilising the vehicle, sacrifices too much progress. It is in that regard that the drive will be unbalanced for me, even if the vehicle isn't destabilised in the process.
Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 19th September 07:06
I seem to recall reading in an old issue of "Performance Car" that the difference between a good driver and a very good driver is that the very good brake much less
I strive to hardly ever use my brakes in normal driving, preferring to use acceleration sense, although some cars are definately easier to do it in than others!
I strive to hardly ever use my brakes in normal driving, preferring to use acceleration sense, although some cars are definately easier to do it in than others!
Edited by stephenperry on Tuesday 19th September 01:20
stephenperry said:
I seem to recall reading in an old issue of "Performance Car" that the difference between a good driver and a very good driver is that the very good brake much less
I strive to hardly ever use my brakes in normal driving, preferring to use acceleration sense, although some cars are definately easier to do it in than others!
I strive to hardly ever use my brakes in normal driving, preferring to use acceleration sense, although some cars are definately easier to do it in than others!
Depends what your objectives are.
If someone I am testing tried to never brake in their driving, they wouldn't pass.
If someone I am testing braked for every bend, they wouldn't pass either.
It's about balance & achieving the optimum for any given situation in relation to your overall objectives.
For me that means there are times that I will be braking much less than most others do & at other times braking much firmer (utilising the fuller capabilities of the vehicles braking & the road surface condition) than most others do. It's about a wide variation in performance of speed loss, not a limited one & the level within that available variation is chosen as the optimum for the prevailing circumstances.
Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 19th September 07:19
stephenperry said:
I strive to hardly ever use my brakes in normal driving, preferring to use acceleration sense, although some cars are definately easier to do it in than others
This is what I was saying in my long and tedious post...I dont think that the IAM or Roadcraft systems actually promote this as part of their system, although I am not an expert or qualified in either so could be wrong. The IAM book does make an absurd statement with regard to entering lower speed limits!
In my view it is not a particularly desirable either (I wont repeat the argument).
Also, if used to the extreme, especially in the presence of other cars not following that regime, it could (only could mind you) generate extreme frustration (for example straight SC road NSL, slowing by acceleration sense alone from 60 to 30). Now I would expect the Advanced Driver to not do this as it's not very considerate. So it's a moot point.
Again each to their own!
Graham
To be fair though, whilst vonh describes, rather accurately as usual, my own view on this, I have heard a number of supposed advanced instructors come out with the exhortation "Try and eliminate braking from the drive."
To me that suggests they have not got the balance right, please pardon the pun, quite unintentional honest!
To me that suggests they have not got the balance right, please pardon the pun, quite unintentional honest!
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me this is very simple.
I will always try and make progress, while remembering that smooth comes before speed (with the IAM certainly. If you are in a different club, well it's your club so please enjoy it and drive as you will).
The IAM encourages use of acceleration sense where appropriate. I follow that, as I can understand and appreciate why it is used. Braking can definitely unbalance the car. Braking gives slightly less smooth transitions. Braking can lead to late actions (you can brake late, not desirable but possible), etc, etc, etc, all identifed in previous posts. Acceleration sense helps against all that, and is recommended (used where appropriate) by every single Advanced Institution going. So even if I didn't fully understand something, I would think to myself that possibly all these Advanced Institutions may know something more than I do. Thats just the way I am, but I can appreciate that everyone is different.
Like any technique it should be used where appropriate. If use of acceleration sense adversely affects other drivers, then it would be wrong. Or possibly, your control of the situation up to that point was wrong, which is slightly different.
If anybody tries to suggest that you NEVER brake, then that would be absurd. But I don't see anybody recommending that. Or am I missing something.
If you mean Acceleration Sense as a technique, yes, they definitely teach and promote it's use (where appropriate).
Graham, it's driving me mad. Whats the absurd statement. I promise I wont contest it, or try and explain it, I just want to know for my own interest.
I think most advanced Drivers would agree with you. If something adversely affects other drivers, then that needs to be taken into account. For example, I will sometimes show my brake lights, even if not actually braking, if they will assist a driver behind. Or even better example, I don't BGOL, but I would choose to do it if, in not doing it, I affected the driver behind. One exemption to avoid brake gear overlap is if doing so would cause the driver behind to have to brake. VH can explain this better, but I hope you see what I mean.
By the way, I frustrate more cars by actually slowing down from 60mph to 30mph by the time I reach the 30mph sign (as opposed to starting to slow only when I reach the sign!!!) than any use of acceleration sense, but thats another story.
I couldn't agree more. All I would suggest is that acceleration sense can only contribute to that, if used where appropriate. Your aims don't conflict with the technique in any way whatsoever.
Nice chatting to you. Are you going to give it a go by the way (where appropriate, repeated ad nauseum).
Regards
Sally
I will always try and make progress, while remembering that smooth comes before speed (with the IAM certainly. If you are in a different club, well it's your club so please enjoy it and drive as you will).
The IAM encourages use of acceleration sense where appropriate. I follow that, as I can understand and appreciate why it is used. Braking can definitely unbalance the car. Braking gives slightly less smooth transitions. Braking can lead to late actions (you can brake late, not desirable but possible), etc, etc, etc, all identifed in previous posts. Acceleration sense helps against all that, and is recommended (used where appropriate) by every single Advanced Institution going. So even if I didn't fully understand something, I would think to myself that possibly all these Advanced Institutions may know something more than I do. Thats just the way I am, but I can appreciate that everyone is different.
Like any technique it should be used where appropriate. If use of acceleration sense adversely affects other drivers, then it would be wrong. Or possibly, your control of the situation up to that point was wrong, which is slightly different.
If anybody tries to suggest that you NEVER brake, then that would be absurd. But I don't see anybody recommending that. Or am I missing something.
gridgway said:
I dont think that the IAM or Roadcraft systems actually promote this as part of their system
If you mean Acceleration Sense as a technique, yes, they definitely teach and promote it's use (where appropriate).
gridgway said:
The IAM book does make an absurd statement with regard to entering lower speed limits!
Graham, it's driving me mad. Whats the absurd statement. I promise I wont contest it, or try and explain it, I just want to know for my own interest.
gridgway said:
Also, if used to the extreme, especially in the presence of other cars not following that regime, it could (only could mind you) generate extreme frustration (for example straight SC road NSL, slowing by acceleration sense alone from 60 to 30). Now I would expect the Advanced Driver to not do this as it's not very considerate. So it's a moot point.
I think most advanced Drivers would agree with you. If something adversely affects other drivers, then that needs to be taken into account. For example, I will sometimes show my brake lights, even if not actually braking, if they will assist a driver behind. Or even better example, I don't BGOL, but I would choose to do it if, in not doing it, I affected the driver behind. One exemption to avoid brake gear overlap is if doing so would cause the driver behind to have to brake. VH can explain this better, but I hope you see what I mean.
By the way, I frustrate more cars by actually slowing down from 60mph to 30mph by the time I reach the 30mph sign (as opposed to starting to slow only when I reach the sign!!!) than any use of acceleration sense, but thats another story.
gridgway said:
My aim in advanced driving is to make good, safe, legal progress, driving smoothly and keeping my passengers comfortable if I have any aboard..
I couldn't agree more. All I would suggest is that acceleration sense can only contribute to that, if used where appropriate. Your aims don't conflict with the technique in any way whatsoever.
Nice chatting to you. Are you going to give it a go by the way (where appropriate, repeated ad nauseum).
Regards
Sally
Edited by Lady Godiva on Tuesday 19th September 12:40
Edited by Lady Godiva on Tuesday 19th September 12:43
Flat in Fifth said:
"Try and eliminate braking from the drive."
I wonder if they really mean that the brakes should never be used, or just using an extreme suggestion to encourage people to pay more attention to managing the vehicles momentum. You should be able to drive with almost no use of the brakes if your anticipation and car control is adequate - it doesn't mean that you should always drive like that. But if you aren't capable of doing it then it points to an area that needs attention. Actually achieving it then shows you how much scope there is to reduce use of brakes in normal driving.
GreenV8S said:
Flat in Fifth said:
"Try and eliminate braking from the drive."
I wonder if they really mean that the brakes should never be used, or just using an extreme suggestion to encourage people to pay more attention to managing the vehicles momentum. You should be able to drive with almost no use of the brakes if your anticipation and car control is adequate - it doesn't mean that you should always drive like that. But if you aren't capable of doing it then it points to an area that needs attention. Actually achieving it then shows you how much scope there is to reduce use of brakes in normal driving.
Perhaps a better adage would be:
"Try and eliminate unnecessay braking from the drive"
renny said:
GreenV8S said:
Flat in Fifth said:
"Try and eliminate braking from the drive."
I wonder if they really mean that the brakes should never be used, or just using an extreme suggestion to encourage people to pay more attention to managing the vehicles momentum. You should be able to drive with almost no use of the brakes if your anticipation and car control is adequate - it doesn't mean that you should always drive like that. But if you aren't capable of doing it then it points to an area that needs attention. Actually achieving it then shows you how much scope there is to reduce use of brakes in normal driving.
Perhaps a better adage would be:
"Try and eliminate unnecessay braking from the drive"
I can actually show you a piece of paper that somebody's instructor had given him as an aide memoire of significant issues to remember in the immediate lead up to his test.
Let me just check, I kept a photocopy because I was gobsmacked when I read it, just a mo ........
Apologies, I speak with forked tongue....
It says "Try to remove brakeing (sic) from the drive!"
MR2Mike said:
vonhosen said:
For me, approaching a roundabout & trying to do it going down through the box without any brakes,
Not allowed to use brake and throttle at same time whilst changing gear?
Depends who you're doing it with & to which code.
I don't have a problem with heel/toe where appropriate.
Hi Sally, been away for a few days, back now...so to address your points...
I guess that it's mainly a balance of techniques between how much you use acceleration sense to slow and how much you slow using the progressive braking technique. Both taken too far are not in accordance with the IAM or Roadcraft systems.
My point was really that the pursuit of the technique of not braking to its extreme is not in accord with the IAM and Roadcraft systems. It's a matter of judgement (and the accepted practice of IAM or whatever system you use) where that is. And not being one, I'm on weak ground! :-))
My view is that what the (in my view rather poor) IAM Advanced Driver book says on page 29 about getting off the gas when you see a lower speed limit so that you enter the speed limit at the correct speed is clever and a good exhibition of obs and judgement but is an absurdity. However it is part of Advanced Driving.
So because I am a pedantic, cantankerous old git who cant cope with seeming contradictions and the rather fatuous arguments of the IAM, I am unlikely ever to be an Advanced Driver. On my last observed drive (of the 3 I have had), I ended up in a huge "debate" with my observer! And that's my loss!!
Graham
I guess that it's mainly a balance of techniques between how much you use acceleration sense to slow and how much you slow using the progressive braking technique. Both taken too far are not in accordance with the IAM or Roadcraft systems.
My point was really that the pursuit of the technique of not braking to its extreme is not in accord with the IAM and Roadcraft systems. It's a matter of judgement (and the accepted practice of IAM or whatever system you use) where that is. And not being one, I'm on weak ground! :-))
My view is that what the (in my view rather poor) IAM Advanced Driver book says on page 29 about getting off the gas when you see a lower speed limit so that you enter the speed limit at the correct speed is clever and a good exhibition of obs and judgement but is an absurdity. However it is part of Advanced Driving.
So because I am a pedantic, cantankerous old git who cant cope with seeming contradictions and the rather fatuous arguments of the IAM, I am unlikely ever to be an Advanced Driver. On my last observed drive (of the 3 I have had), I ended up in a huge "debate" with my observer! And that's my loss!!
Graham
gridgway said:
Hi Sally, been away for a few days, back now...so to address your points...
I guess that it's mainly a balance of techniques between how much you use acceleration sense to slow and how much you slow using the progressive braking technique. Both taken too far are not in accordance with the IAM or Roadcraft systems.
My point was really that the pursuit of the technique of not braking to its extreme is not in accord with the IAM and Roadcraft systems. It's a matter of judgement (and the accepted practice of IAM or whatever system you use) where that is. And not being one, I'm on weak ground! :-))
My view is that what the (in my view rather poor) IAM Advanced Driver book says on page 29 about getting off the gas when you see a lower speed limit so that you enter the speed limit at the correct speed is clever and a good exhibition of obs and judgement but is an absurdity. However it is part of Advanced Driving.
So because I am a pedantic, cantankerous old git who cant cope with seeming contradictions and the rather fatuous arguments of the IAM, I am unlikely ever to be an Advanced Driver. On my last observed drive (of the 3 I have had), I ended up in a huge "debate" with my observer! And that's my loss!!
Graham
I guess that it's mainly a balance of techniques between how much you use acceleration sense to slow and how much you slow using the progressive braking technique. Both taken too far are not in accordance with the IAM or Roadcraft systems.
My point was really that the pursuit of the technique of not braking to its extreme is not in accord with the IAM and Roadcraft systems. It's a matter of judgement (and the accepted practice of IAM or whatever system you use) where that is. And not being one, I'm on weak ground! :-))
My view is that what the (in my view rather poor) IAM Advanced Driver book says on page 29 about getting off the gas when you see a lower speed limit so that you enter the speed limit at the correct speed is clever and a good exhibition of obs and judgement but is an absurdity. However it is part of Advanced Driving.
So because I am a pedantic, cantankerous old git who cant cope with seeming contradictions and the rather fatuous arguments of the IAM, I am unlikely ever to be an Advanced Driver. On my last observed drive (of the 3 I have had), I ended up in a huge "debate" with my observer! And that's my loss!!
Graham
Dear Graham - many thanks for getting back to me. I hope you had a nice holiday (or business trip, or whatever).
I do know what you mean, and fully appreciate that any technique should only be used where appropriate. That should be a given in any Advanced method.
Obviously I would defend the IAM to some extent, as I am a member and agree with it's principles. However, I also beleive that you don't need to be in the IAM to be an advanced driver, you just need another organisation more in tune with your beliefs. Each to his own.
I personally don't have any issues with slowing down using acceleration sense to the speed limit sign, but I promised you I wouldn't debate it or argue the point. Damn!!!
Regards
Sally
P.S. the other day someone suggested to me that using acceleration sense rather than brakes affected the overall journey time. It seems to me that poor acceleration thrtough a hazard, poor lane selection, poor observation, poor anticipation (and a million other things) would affect it much more. I can't beleive that anyone is so important that their journey is so important that seconds matter. There again, I'm just going shopping, what do I know.
I find that there are often situations where a limit reduction cannot be seen soon enough to slow down to the new limit just using engine braking. Similarly when approaching junctions it would usually be impractical to slow down sufficiently using engine braking alone. As has been said before, the goal is to avoid unecessary braking. Perhaps a better way to think of it is to avoid pointless application of power. Why keep the power on, when you could shut off and start coasting down rather than keep going and then have to brake? But moderation in all things, coasting everywhere is neither practical nor desirable.
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