How would you handle this junction?

[Major Bloodnok]

There's a "strange" junction near where I work, and I thought that it might be interesting to pose the question: "how would you, as a competent or advanced motorist, tackle it?" I'll apologise in advance if this gets a bit long, but I'd like to describe it in terms of someone approaching it for the frst time - imagine that you're following your sat nav in a strange area.

FYI, the Google Earth coordinates are [ 53 27' 22" N, 2 19' 05" W ]. Copy and paste the text between the brackets into GE and it'll take you straight there. (The edifice in the middle of it in the picture is no longer there.)

OK, so here's the description of your approach:

You're heading south and the sat nav has told you to take the next turning right. At the moment, you're on a SC road, 30 mph, climbing up a slight incline towards a crest. The road is about 1.5 car widths in each direction.

As you come over the crest, the junction is 250m ahead. On the left is a large factory and you can see a triangular warning sign with a picture of a train (no other plates or information). The junction itself is quite large and you can see that the approach road widens out to two lanes marked for straight on and one for turn right only. The lights are currently on red, and there is an extra right-turn filter light (not illuminated). To the left of the junction is what looks to be an access road for the factory (the road surface is diferent to the main carriageway).

Straight on, you can see a couple of suspicious-looking gouges in the road going left to right across the far side of the junction area (visible as a thick dark line in the google earth image). You will not cross these in the process of turning right.

Coming towards you are two lanes of traffic going straight on (north), stopped, and a filter lane turning left (west) into the road that you're heading for. This lane is flowing, so they obviously have a filter to allow a left turn. You can also see that there are no secondary traffic lights - once you're past the primary lights at the stop line, you will have no idea what's happening.

From the right, there are two lanes of traffic entering the junction turning right (south), and one lane turning left, separated from the others by an island. There is also an island separating eastbound from westbound traffic. The road you're intending to turn into has a wide mouth, but rapidly narrows to a single lane in width.

As you approach the junction, the lights go green (the filter light does not illuminate). The traffic heading north starts to move, and the traffic turning west keeps going - there's a long queue of traffic heading that way.

So, given the information gathered on the approach, how do you continue? Do you enter the junction and wait your turn, or do you hang back and risk the wrath of the artic behind you, who also wants to turn right?

I'm interested in seeing what people's thought processes are before I add in the "local knowledge" aspect.

Again, sorry for the length of this, but I thought it might make an interesting intellectual exercise...

Edited by Major Bloodnok on Wednesday 27th September 19:31

[GreenV8S]

Having trouble visualising all that, but it seems to boil down to turning right at a complex junction with conflicting traffic coming the other way but with space to proceed into my exit road once I clear the junction.

I'd aim to move into the junction and cross the opposing traffic when there was a gap - expecting that there'd be a gap in the opposing traffic when their lights go red even if there wasn't one before. If my exit route was congested I'd probably hang back from entering the junction until I knew I'd be able to get out, otherwise I'd risk beiong stuck in the middle blocking everyone else.

[jamesson]

I'd go along with Green on that one. It *sounds* fairly straightforward, but I'm waiting for the local knowledge to show me up!

[Major Bloodnok]

What I see as the main problem with this junction is that, on the approach, your lights have an extra right-turn filter light tacked on. Seeing that, you could reasonably expect that, no matter what else, you will get the opportunity to complete your turn. And that's where it goes wrong - that light is only used if there's a train crossing the junction, since only traffic going that way can go without crossing the tracks. There is no filter phase under normal circumstances - in fact, under normal circumstances, that oncoming, left-turning traffic that's blocking you never stops.

This is, I think, the only junction I know of where the presence of that extra light tacked onto the normal traffic lights does not indicate a filter phase in your favour at some point. But how are you supposed to know that unless you use the junction regularly?

[Silentz]

Major Bloodnok said:

This is, I think, the only junction I know of where the presence of that extra light tacked onto the normal traffic lights does not indicate a filter phase in your favour at some point. But how are you supposed to know that unless you use the junction regularly?

Funny, as soon as I saw you explain there was a "triangular sign with a picture of a train" I thought "i bet this is Trafford Park"!

I personally would sit and wait for the filter light to come on, possibly for a whole cycle of the lights! I might then assume the bulb was out and try to find a gap in the traffic to edge out into.

Weird sounding junction. I don't know it, and would hate to be taken that way in a driving test!

[Jaik]

Assuming there isn't yellow cross-hatching and I wouldn't be blocking other traffic then I would move into the junction and turn when there was a gap.

[Major Bloodnok]

Jaik said:

Assuming there isn't yellow cross-hatching and I wouldn't be blocking other traffic then I would move into the junction and turn when there was a gap.

My thoughts exactly, except that you could find yourself (unexpectedly) without that gap appearing, and cars coming toward you from your left.

[havoc]

Major Bloodnok said:

Jaik said:

Assuming there isn't yellow cross-hatching and I wouldn't be blocking other traffic then I would move into the junction and turn when there was a gap.

My thoughts exactly, except that you could find yourself (unexpectedly) without that gap appearing, and cars coming toward you from your left.

If there is no completely separate set of lights governing the right filter, and no cross-hatching, you are legally entitled to move forwards ready for a gap in the traffic.

There SHOULD (if the lights are sequenced correctly) be a sensible gap between the oncoming traffic stopping for red and the crossing traffic getting a green light, even if the filter doesn't illuminate. And being honest, you've got a good 10-15 yards over the crossing traffic in which to sort yourself out anyway.

[Major Bloodnok]

havoc said:

Major Bloodnok said:

Jaik said:

Assuming there isn't yellow cross-hatching and I wouldn't be blocking other traffic then I would move into the junction and turn when there was a gap.

My thoughts exactly, except that you could find yourself (unexpectedly) without that gap appearing, and cars coming toward you from your left.

If there is no completely separate set of lights governing the right filter, and no cross-hatching, you are legally entitled to move forwards ready for a gap in the traffic.

There SHOULD (if the lights are sequenced correctly) be a sensible gap between the oncoming traffic stopping for red and the crossing traffic getting a green light, even if the filter doesn't illuminate. And being honest, you've got a good 10-15 yards over the crossing traffic in which to sort yourself out anyway.

There is (potentially) no gap. The traffic turning left can completely stop you from entering that road - their filter is continuous throughout the cycle; it only goes red if a train is going across the junction. Plus, the road narrows too quickly to allow you to go in alongside them. About your only chance is to start the turn and hope someone will open a gap and let you in.

Now, in practice, you don't get that much traffic, and the turn is quite safe, but the potential is there. It's also a salutory lesson that, just because there's what appears to be a filter light in your favour, it doesn't necessarily activate every cycle.

[havoc]

Major Bloodnok said:

havoc said:

Major Bloodnok said:

Jaik said:

Assuming there isn't yellow cross-hatching and I wouldn't be blocking other traffic then I would move into the junction and turn when there was a gap.

My thoughts exactly, except that you could find yourself (unexpectedly) without that gap appearing, and cars coming toward you from your left.

If there is no completely separate set of lights governing the right filter, and no cross-hatching, you are legally entitled to move forwards ready for a gap in the traffic.

There SHOULD (if the lights are sequenced correctly) be a sensible gap between the oncoming traffic stopping for red and the crossing traffic getting a green light, even if the filter doesn't illuminate. And being honest, you've got a good 10-15 yards over the crossing traffic in which to sort yourself out anyway.

There is (potentially) no gap. The traffic turning left can completely stop you from entering that road - their filter is continuous throughout the cycle; it only goes red if a train is going across the junction. Plus, the road narrows too quickly to allow you to go in alongside them. About your only chance is to start the turn and hope someone will open a gap and let you in.

Surely they've got a 'give way' sign at the filter? I've seen junctions as you describe before, but always the left filter is either traffic-lights or give-way.

And if they are instructed to give way, there is no issue...except when dealing with numpties...but that could happen anywhere.

[Major Bloodnok]

havoc said:

Surely they've got a 'give way' sign at the filter?

Not that I can see...

Like I said, it's a weird junction. I don't think I've come across another like it.