Coming to a halt
Discussion
7db said:
Big Fat F'er said:
That's what's wrong and dangerous.
Why is that dangerous?
Triple is recommending that you travel along the road, for an unspecified distance before you even start coming to a halt, in neutral, with foot off the clutch, with no positive drive, and if something happens, you then start to select a gear, get the revs and respond.
So why do you think it’s dangerous.
7db said:
Big Fat F'er said:
That's what's wrong and dangerous.
Why is that dangerous?
Don't worry about it David. Keep your wits about you (which I'm sure you, and most folk do) and it need not be a problem at all.
BFF is doing his usual trick. He's telling us how it's got to be and that will not work with me. I'll listen to various points of view and go with the one that sounds most sensible. Shouting and table thumping will make no difference.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
GreenV8S said:
Big Fat F'er said:
By coasting I mean under braking with the clutch disengaged.
...
What you would not do is coast along in neutral. Because that is driving dangerously
...
What you would not do is coast along in neutral. Because that is driving dangerously
I'm not clear whether you're objecting to being in neutral, or having the clutch disengaged, or both, while braking. I don't see why any of these are inherently dangerous. Why do you say they are?
If you are braking to a halt, then at some point you will have to diengage the clutch, and be in neutral. No probs.
That isn’t the problem. The problem is that TripleS is suggesting that as you travel along, before you would start to stop (!) you select neutral and coast along, foot off clutch, with no drive to the car. That is dangerous and claiming good observation doesn’t stop it being so.
TripleS said:
7db said:
Big Fat F'er said:
That's what's wrong and dangerous.
Why is that dangerous?
Don't worry about it David. Keep your wits about you (which I'm sure you, and most folk do) and it need not be a problem at all.
BFF is doing his usual trick. He's telling us how it's got to be and that will not work with me. I'll listen to various points of view and go with the one that sounds most sensible. Shouting and table thumping will make no difference.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Triple - I'm not telling how it's got to be. You've made it clear on here and elsewhere what you think about Advanced driving. It's hard to find a rule or guideline that you don't disagree with. Even when you failed to take up observed runs sucessfully it was the Observers fault.
That aside, it's up to you how you drive. But some things are wrong. Coasting along the road without full control of your vehicle is one of them. It's bad enough when you do things that are dangerous, but when you encourage others to do the same it's worse.
I dont think most drivers on here would coast down a hill in neutral, clutch disengaged. Or down a slip road. Or towards a hazard. Or through a hazard.
The engines there for a reason. Use it. Or dont use it. It's up to you. But dont claim that what you are doing is safe. It's not.
Big Fat F'er said:
That isn’t the problem. The problem is that TripleS is suggesting that as you travel along, before you would start to stop (!) you select neutral and coast along, foot off clutch, with no drive to the car. That is dangerous and claiming good observation doesn’t stop it being so.
As far as I can work out, we're all talking about what happens when braking. I think you said so explicitly in the part of your comment I quoted. I don't understand what you think is dangerous about it.
GreenV8S said:
Big Fat F'er said:
That isn’t the problem. The problem is that TripleS is suggesting that as you travel along, before you would start to stop (!) you select neutral and coast along, foot off clutch, with no drive to the car. That is dangerous and claiming good observation doesn’t stop it being so.
As far as I can work out, we're all talking about what happens when braking. I think you said so explicitly in the part of your comment I quoted. I don't understand what you think is dangerous about it.
As far as I can work out we are not all talking about what happens when braking. Otherwise the debate would be along the lines of "when I brake I ultimately declutch and go into neutral". Obviously.
Triple seemed to suggest that you coast along the road. If he isn't suggesting that then he's had plenty of time to say so, however if he's now taking it back then super duper.
'soz about this, genuinely being called out urgently...must dash chaps.
BFF
one thing my IAM observer didn't like was in the circumstance where you de-clutch to come to a stop, I usually knock it out of gear and bring the clutch up. This saves the crank thrust bearing a little (albeit not much) and also saves the clutch if you are using a fancy one.
I was told that you should not come out of gear until stopped and the car secured by handbrake.
We discussed but couldnt agree a reason why. My observer was trying to convince me that being in gear until the handbrake was on was useful if someone rear ended you. Now I sometimes stay put having put the car into first if I think I might be at risk from behind when stationary(!). But that was not what was suggested.
Anyone shed any light on this (we agreed to not agree BTW).
Graham
I was told that you should not come out of gear until stopped and the car secured by handbrake.
We discussed but couldnt agree a reason why. My observer was trying to convince me that being in gear until the handbrake was on was useful if someone rear ended you. Now I sometimes stay put having put the car into first if I think I might be at risk from behind when stationary(!). But that was not what was suggested.
Anyone shed any light on this (we agreed to not agree BTW).
Graham
Big Fat F'er said:
When you are coming to a halt, the recommended practice is to stop, handbrake then neutral. But again, that isn't what the problem is. It's not when you are coming to a halt that is the problem. TripleS is recommending coasting along without positive drive. Accidents have happened that way, even with those who claim that they are okay 'cos they have good observation.
Yes, I know what sequence of events the recommended practice calls for. By your reckoning I'm already in trouble before I get to that stage. Can you tell me about these accidents that have been associated with the technique I'm describing?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Big Fat F'er said:
GreenV8S said:
Big Fat F'er said:
What you DON'T do is go into neutral and coast along. No excuses, and ignore any advice that it is okay as long as you have good observation. It's not okay, and not acceptable. It's poor driving, and dangerous.
BFF
In situations where you *might* need to pull away before coming to a complete halt, being ready and prepared to do so is sensible. But there are situations where it is clear that you will be coming to a dead stop and there is no conceivable need to accelerate. In those situations, what is the danger from being out of gear? It is very similar to not covering the brake when you are certain that there will be no need to brake. I would say a more general guideline is that you should be prepared to respond to any reasonably forseeable events. That doesn't mean you should be poised at all times to do an emergency stop with the car in the right gear and revs and the clutch at biting point to apply emergency acceleration and ready to do a violent swerve. Any of those might be appropriate under the right circumstances and under those circumstances you should be prepared to do them, but that doesn't mean you should be poised to do all of them all of the time.
Absolutely to the above, thats what 'thinking driving' is all about. Unfortunately it is not what TripleS is all about. He is suggesting to Sam that he could coast along by coming into neutral, clutch up, foot off, and travel along the road, well before stopping. That means he is not able to respond to events, unforseen or otherwise. That's dangerous.
Don't do it Sam.
Please let Sam make up his own mind. He'll probably get a better result by thoughtfully working these things out for himself, having considered all the relevant information, rather than trying to follow a prescription that you are trying to force on him.
How do you substantiate your claim that I am not able to respond to events etc.? It would certainly be potentially dangerous if that were the case, but very long experience has failed to reveal a problem with it. Yes I know, it might all go wrong tomorrow, but I doubt it. Meanwhile I'll keep it under review.
Carry on - I'm still listening.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
GreenV8S said:
Big Fat F'er said:
By coasting I mean under braking with the clutch disengaged.
...
What you would not do is coast along in neutral. Because that is driving dangerously
...
What you would not do is coast along in neutral. Because that is driving dangerously
I'm not clear whether you're objecting to being in neutral, or having the clutch disengaged, or both, while braking. I don't see why any of these are inherently dangerous. Why do you say they are?
Does it matter whether or not braking is taking place during this phase? I don't see that as being a significant factor.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Big Fat F'er said:
7db said:
Big Fat F'er said:
That's what's wrong and dangerous.
Why is that dangerous?
TripleS is recommending that you travel along the road, for an unspecified distance before you even start coming to a halt, in neutral, with foot off the clutch, with no positive drive, and if something happens, you then start to select a gear, get the revs and respond.
So why do you think it’s dangerous.
What do you want positive drive for in this case? Typical scenario: I'm gently slowing down towards a stopping point, comfortably spaced from the vehicle in front, which might be already stopped, or nearly so. The vehicles behind are slowing down gently with me - I've sort of induced them to do that
- and we're all getting along in a perfectly orderly fashion. There is nothing going on at the sides that is going to affect us in any way. So long as I keep an eye on what's going on around me and I'm ready to engage a low gear if anything looks at all threatening, what do I need to be worrying about? You tell me, and I'll change my technique accordingly if that looks to be appropriate. Best wishes all,
Dave.
Big Fat F'er said:
GreenV8S said:
Big Fat F'er said:
By coasting I mean under braking with the clutch disengaged.
...
What you would not do is coast along in neutral. Because that is driving dangerously
...
What you would not do is coast along in neutral. Because that is driving dangerously
I'm not clear whether you're objecting to being in neutral, or having the clutch disengaged, or both, while braking. I don't see why any of these are inherently dangerous. Why do you say they are?
If you are braking to a halt, then at some point you will have to diengage the clutch, and be in neutral. No probs.
That isn’t the problem. The problem is that TripleS is suggesting that as you travel along, before you would start to stop (!) you select neutral and coast along, foot off clutch, with no drive to the car. That is dangerous and claiming good observation doesn’t stop it being so.
A bit of clarification if I may:
I'm not talking about spending a lot of time and covering a long distance in neutral. Neutral is only selected when the speed falls to a point where that gear can not remain engaged because the engine speed would be pulled down too low. All of this is in the slowing down phase. It's just that in my case I prefer to make it a long easy process that minimises the risk of getting hit in the tail, but it is all within the slowing down process.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Big Fat F'er said:
TripleS said:
7db said:
Big Fat F'er said:
That's what's wrong and dangerous.
Why is that dangerous?
Don't worry about it David. Keep your wits about you (which I'm sure you, and most folk do) and it need not be a problem at all.
BFF is doing his usual trick. He's telling us how it's got to be and that will not work with me. I'll listen to various points of view and go with the one that sounds most sensible. Shouting and table thumping will make no difference.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Triple - I'm not telling how it's got to be. You've made it clear on here and elsewhere what you think about Advanced driving. It's hard to find a rule or guideline that you don't disagree with. Even when you failed to take up observed runs sucessfully it was the Observers fault.
1. Well you seem to me very insistent that your view shall prevail.
2. OK, remind me; what do I think about Advanced driving?
3. By no means do I dispute the merits of all rules and guidelines.
4. I think the first Observer was bad, but I've always accepted a share of the blame.
5. You may have missed this, but since then I have had a run out with the Chief Observer, and he was extremely complimentary.
Big Fat F'er said:
That aside, it's up to you how you drive. But some things are wrong. Coasting along the road without full control of your vehicle is one of them. It's bad enough when you do things that are dangerous, but when you encourage others to do the same it's worse.
1. Yes it is up to me how I drive. You do the same. That's OK.
2. There is no lack of control. The car will travel at speeds and on a course that can be maintained with adequate accuracy and reliability, and you can't prove otherwise.
3. You have not yet demonstrated that what I have described is dangerous or detrimental in any way.
Big Fat F'er said:
I dont think most drivers on here would coast down a hill in neutral, clutch disengaged. Or down a slip road. Or towards a hazard. Or through a hazard.
Have I indicated that I do those things or encouraged others to behave the same? I think not. You are now inventing scenarios in a desperate attempt to find some way of justifying your case, and it will not do.
Big Fat F'er said:
The engine is there for a reason. Use it. Or don't use it. It's up to you. But don't claim that what you are doing is safe. It's not.
I do make reasonable use of the engine, clutch, gearbox, brakes steering and all the other bits. Don't worry - it's not working out so badly.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS said:
Big Fat F'er said:
When you are coming to a halt, the recommended practice is to stop, handbrake then neutral. But again, that isn't what the problem is. It's not when you are coming to a halt that is the problem. TripleS is recommending coasting along without positive drive. Accidents have happened that way, even with those who claim that they are okay 'cos they have good observation.
Yes, I know what sequence of events the recommended practice calls for.
Excellent. Thats a start anyway. Well done.
TripleS said:
By your reckoning I'm already in trouble before I get to that stage. Can you tell me about these accidents that have been associated with the technique I'm describing?
Certainly mon brave. There have been accidents where the drivers were travelling along like yourself, coasting and not in control, and the unexpected happened. Because despite your claim that as long as you are checking all around then nothing bad can happen, unfortunately it still does. When it happened, the drivers couldn't get out of the way. Because when they needed instant reactions, they had to start thinking and then selecting a gear, removing their hands from the wheel, etc.
Thats why it's not only not taught, it's actively described as incorrect in Advanced (and basic) driving.
TripleS said:
Please let Sam make up his own mind. He'll probably get a better result by thoughtfully working these things out for himself, having considered all the relevant information, rather than trying to follow a prescription that you are trying to force on him.
Yes, Sam can make his own mind up. You tell him your way, I'll describe the other way that is recommended and is not dangerous, then Sam can decide.
TripleS said:
How do you substantiate your claim that I am not able to respond to events etc.? It would certainly be potentially dangerous if that were the case, but very long experience has failed to reveal a problem with it. Yes I know, it might all go wrong tomorrow, but I doubt it. Meanwhile I'll keep it under review.
If you think that being in neutral, coasting along with the clutch up, is the same level of control and ability to respond urgently as in gear under a positive drive, then yes, you need to review it....urgently.
TripleS said:
Does it matter whether or not braking is taking place during this phase? I don't see that as being a significant factor.
Yes it does, and I suspect you know it.
1) Need to come to a halt so start to brake, then declutch as appropriate just before stopping, full stop, handbrafe...you know the rest.
2) See traffic up ahead so pop it into neutral, clutch up, foot off the pedal, cars momentum carries it forward, travelling along without full control of the car. Dangerous.
This is an absolute classic. The trade off between "coasting" (bad) vs the fact that if you slow from a high gear to a near halt the engine will "labour" (bad). What's to do?
Be pragmatic and THINK ahead.
In my Porsche I have a six speed box. In sixth I can brake from motorway speeds down to about 20mph - as the engine isn't really doing much - then I need to declutch. If I am following the system and really need to then this is OK. But - it does leave me in an inflexible gear for the speed I am doing as I approach the slow hazard: say a roundabout above the motorway.
How I approach this is in two ways. Firstly: The slip road itself is a hazard.
Information - what's behind me, in front of me, where is the three hundred yard marker. Indicate at the marker. Keep checking mirrors.
Position - I'm in the left hand lane and can set a course towards the slip road, up the slip road.
Speed: 70mph was my speed and is still good.
Gear: Take up 4th gear. A flexible gear in my car for the slip road and anything that might happen on it.
Drive onto slip road. Restart system.
Information: Approaching roundabout. Going right. Cannot yet see on to it so do not know whart gear I will eventually need. Could be neutral as I stop. Could be third!
Position: Take up right hand lane, set a course for the proper entry onto the roundabout.
Speed. Slowing. Presuming I will need to stop at the entry - but constantly keeping up observation hoping and planning for the eventuality that the roundabout will be clear and I can go. Still slowing. View onto roundabout becomes clear. If its busy, declutch from fourth and come to a smooth halt. If not...
Gear: Select third/second. Enter roundabout...
Acceleration:
Enjoy roundabout.
If I am hooning I will approach the roundabout from a greater speed, probably. During the approach I will use heel and toe to get second from fourth (revs will be rather high) quite possibly before I know what eventual gear I need. I am breaking the system and hoping more than usual that I will be able to go. My entry speed at the roundabout will be exactly the same...If its clear I enter the roundabout with lots of acceleration and the rear end twitching a bit. If its not I declutch and come to a halt having "wasted" a downchange.
Frankly the second method is only necessary when (a) having a lot of fun, (b) practicing for Druid's at Brands Hatch.
Be pragmatic and THINK ahead.
In my Porsche I have a six speed box. In sixth I can brake from motorway speeds down to about 20mph - as the engine isn't really doing much - then I need to declutch. If I am following the system and really need to then this is OK. But - it does leave me in an inflexible gear for the speed I am doing as I approach the slow hazard: say a roundabout above the motorway.
How I approach this is in two ways. Firstly: The slip road itself is a hazard.
Information - what's behind me, in front of me, where is the three hundred yard marker. Indicate at the marker. Keep checking mirrors.
Position - I'm in the left hand lane and can set a course towards the slip road, up the slip road.
Speed: 70mph was my speed and is still good.
Gear: Take up 4th gear. A flexible gear in my car for the slip road and anything that might happen on it.
Drive onto slip road. Restart system.
Information: Approaching roundabout. Going right. Cannot yet see on to it so do not know whart gear I will eventually need. Could be neutral as I stop. Could be third!
Position: Take up right hand lane, set a course for the proper entry onto the roundabout.
Speed. Slowing. Presuming I will need to stop at the entry - but constantly keeping up observation hoping and planning for the eventuality that the roundabout will be clear and I can go. Still slowing. View onto roundabout becomes clear. If its busy, declutch from fourth and come to a smooth halt. If not...
Gear: Select third/second. Enter roundabout...
Acceleration:
Enjoy roundabout. If I am hooning I will approach the roundabout from a greater speed, probably. During the approach I will use heel and toe to get second from fourth (revs will be rather high) quite possibly before I know what eventual gear I need. I am breaking the system and hoping more than usual that I will be able to go. My entry speed at the roundabout will be exactly the same...If its clear I enter the roundabout with lots of acceleration and the rear end twitching a bit. If its not I declutch and come to a halt having "wasted" a downchange.
Frankly the second method is only necessary when (a) having a lot of fun, (b) practicing for Druid's at Brands Hatch.
Big Fat F'er said:
GreenV8S said:
Big Fat F'er said:
That isn’t the problem. The problem is that TripleS is suggesting that as you travel along, before you would start to stop (!) you select neutral and coast along, foot off clutch, with no drive to the car. That is dangerous and claiming good observation doesn’t stop it being so.
As far as I can work out, we're all talking about what happens when braking. I think you said so explicitly in the part of your comment I quoted. I don't understand what you think is dangerous about it.
As far as I can work out we are not all talking about what happens when braking. Otherwise the debate would be along the lines of "when I brake I ultimately declutch and go into neutral". Obviously.
TripleS seemed to suggest that you coast along the road. If he isn't suggesting that then he's had plenty of time to say so, however if he's now taking it back then super duper.
'soz about this, genuinely being called out urgently...must dash chaps.
BFF
OK Brian, I hope it's nothing too serious, but we'll see you later.
Well I haven't seen a reason to start wriggling yet, so I'll merely try to offer a little more explanation.
The offically recommended procedure when approaching a point at which you will have to stop is to declutch when the braking causes the engine speed to fall to around idling speed, or a little above, or at any rate before the juddering and roughness starts. You then continue braking to a halt, and only after you have stopped should you engage the handbrake, slip into neutral and release the clutch pedal.
Now if you're one of those people who rushes up to a stopping point braking late and hard, the period of time spent running with clutch pedal depressed can be very short. However, I'm not a late braker, I prefer early and gentle braking over a longer distance/time period, primarily with the aim of reducing the risk of being hit in the tail.
I think this is a sensible approach, but unfortunately it means that my slowing down phase occupies a longer distance, and it occupies a longer time period, than would normally be the case for most people. My mechanical sympathy means that I am not happy to keep my foot on the clutch pedal (creating additional wear in the clutch release mechanism) for this extended period, hence the slipping into neutral and the releasing of the clutch pedal at an early stage.
That is my reasoning for doing what I do, and in my experience there has never been any sign that safety is likely to be compromised, and I'm still waiting for somebody to substantiate their claim that there is really a problem with this.
Best wishes all,
Dave
TripleS said:
What do you want positive drive for in this case? Typical scenario: I'm gently slowing down towards a stopping point, comfortably spaced from the vehicle in front, which might be already stopped, or nearly so. The vehicles behind are slowing down gently with me - I've sort of induced them to do that - and we're all getting along in a perfectly orderly fashion. There is nothing going on at the sides that is going to affect us in any way. So long as I keep an eye on what's going on around me and I'm ready to engage a low gear if anything looks at all threatening, what do I need to be worrying about? You tell me, and I'll change my technique accordingly if that looks to be appropriate.
- and we're all getting along in a perfectly orderly fashion. There is nothing going on at the sides that is going to affect us in any way. So long as I keep an eye on what's going on around me and I'm ready to engage a low gear if anything looks at all threatening, what do I need to be worrying about? You tell me, and I'll change my technique accordingly if that looks to be appropriate.Because most drivers, just before an accident, would admit that they didn't think anything was going to happen. They say things like "honestly, there was no one in that junction" or "trust me, that bike literally came out of nowhere". So assuming that you are as mortal as the rest, and something might surprise you, then you want to be able to react immediately. You cant react as effectively or efficiently if you are coasting in neutral.
TripleS said:
OK Brian, I hope it's nothing too serious, but we'll see you later.
It is unfortunately serious, and I am back out again in 10 seconds. I'm saying this so you realise I'm not ignoring you, I'm just not here (and now won't be for some time). However, I will be back later to help you improve your driving, and make you a little safer!
TripleS said:
Well I haven't seen a reason to start wriggling yet, so I'll merely try to offer a little more explanation.
The offically recommended procedure when approaching a point at which you will have to stop is to declutch when the braking causes the engine speed to fall to around idling speed, or a little above, or at any rate before the juddering and roughness starts. You then continue braking to a halt, and only after you have stopped should you engage the handbrake, slip into neutral and release the clutch pedal.
Now if you're one of those people who rushes up to a stopping point braking late and hard, the period of time spent running with clutch pedal depressed can be very short. However, I'm not a late braker, I prefer early and gentle braking over a longer distance/time period, primarily with the aim of reducing the risk of being hit in the tail.
I think this is a sensible approach, but unfortunately it means that my slowing down phase occupies a longer distance, and it occupies a longer time period, than would normally be the case for most people. My mechanical sympathy means that I am not happy to keep my foot on the clutch pedal (creating additional wear in the clutch release mechanism) for this extended period, hence the slipping into neutral and the releasing of the clutch pedal at an early stage.
That is my reasoning for doing what I do, and in my experience there has never been any sign that safety is likely to be compromised, and I'm still waiting for somebody to substantiate their claim that there is really a problem with this.
Best wishes all,
Dave
The offically recommended procedure when approaching a point at which you will have to stop is to declutch when the braking causes the engine speed to fall to around idling speed, or a little above, or at any rate before the juddering and roughness starts. You then continue braking to a halt, and only after you have stopped should you engage the handbrake, slip into neutral and release the clutch pedal.
Now if you're one of those people who rushes up to a stopping point braking late and hard, the period of time spent running with clutch pedal depressed can be very short. However, I'm not a late braker, I prefer early and gentle braking over a longer distance/time period, primarily with the aim of reducing the risk of being hit in the tail.
I think this is a sensible approach, but unfortunately it means that my slowing down phase occupies a longer distance, and it occupies a longer time period, than would normally be the case for most people. My mechanical sympathy means that I am not happy to keep my foot on the clutch pedal (creating additional wear in the clutch release mechanism) for this extended period, hence the slipping into neutral and the releasing of the clutch pedal at an early stage.
That is my reasoning for doing what I do, and in my experience there has never been any sign that safety is likely to be compromised, and I'm still waiting for somebody to substantiate their claim that there is really a problem with this.
Best wishes all,
Dave
Lets be honest, like many I drive hard some times, soft others. Sometimes I deliberately set up a nose dive, sometimes I brake so gently the snooker ball doesn't move in the the saucer.
But when I drive I drive. In gear. Under power. That way I can balance the car, use acceleration sense, etc, etc. But most of all I can react IF something happens.
Sorry, going, good to talk.
BFF
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