Being Flashed etc

[Big Fat F'er]

GreenV8S said:

Big Fat F'er said:

I would NEVER, in ANY circumstances, put my safety in the hands of another.

As always, it's a matter of degree. Every day we encounter situations where somebody could in principle put us at risk

Agreed, but that isn't my point.

I'm talking about where you consciously decide to do something, and you specifically accept that someone else has then to do something to make you safe.

For me, I wouldn't put my safety in the hands of another on purpose. So I wouldn't go for a gap where someone else then has to do something to make it safe.

Let's face it. Everyone is quick to come on here and moan about how stupid the drivers out there are. Right then. Stop trusting them to keep you safe.

[havoc]

Big Fat F'er said:

havoc said:

But are you telling me I should only overtake where the gap I plan to enter is the same size or bigger than the safe gap I need and the safe gap the person I'm passing needs?

To be honest, that’s exactly what I would suggest you do. If there isn’t a safe gap, don’t go? Think about it logically. You decide to go on the assumption that there isn’t a safe gap anywhere, but you hope that the driver in front will create one when you get there. Dangerous for you and everyone else, and may very well be perceived as extremely antagonistic.

Sorry, but No Gap, No Go.

BFF

I can only assume then that you never overtake where you would need to pull into the middle of a stream of traffic, as I cannot think of many occasions where I have been overtaking a stream of traffic and ANYONE has left a 2x necessary gap - people just don't do that - it doesn't make sense - if you are following, you leave a safe gap, not twice that gap. And many people now don't even leave a safe gap (so you treat them and the car in front as one obstacle, unfortunately).

As a consequence, I can only assume that when stuck (say) 10 or more cars behind a slow-moving truck you don't actually make any progress, but stick behind the increasingly sheep-like people in front of you who wouldn't dream of overtaking.

I may be wrong, but that doesn't sound likely to me BFF - it sounds like a laudable ideal, but it doesn't hold water when it meets the real-world.



As for the second point - attracting the attention of people in front of me when overtaking, what would you suggest I do extra:-
Currently:-
- Indicate right (obviously)
- Headlights if dull/wet/dusky (i.e. if they might help)

Other possibilities
- Horn - might annoy them, might alarm them/wake them up...which could be just as dangerous as doing nothing.
- Flash lights - likely in current climate to be perceived as aggressive - I only do this if I spot a hazard, such as someone sitting wide or someone coming the other way (WIDE A-road) sitting wide...and in both cases I've an abort planned as well.


...can't think of a lot else, so I'm not entirely certain what you expect overtakers to do?!? And is the risk of passing someone and them suddenly swerving into you THAT great? Sorry, but I don't think it is. Certainly not if you leave 3ft+.


PS - not trying to be antagonistic, but you seem to be taking a purist viewpoint whereas I'm talking about real-world situations.

[A - W]

havoc said:

as I cannot think of many occasions where I have been overtaking a stream of traffic and ANYONE has left a 2x necessary gap - people just don't do that - it doesn't make sense - if you are following, you leave a safe gap, not twice that gap.

Agreed many dont. But if you were following me and local knowledge tells me I cant overtake for a while I will sit back and leave plenty of room, that maybe two times the gap you'd leave? If I am looking to overtake I will be near/or in contact to make my presence felt for those around me. Its about giving information as well as using it.

The gaps left should be larger then people generally leave themselves, it makes sense giving yourself and others following more time to react.

Edited by A - W on Tuesday 21st November 08:00

[havoc]

A - W said:

havoc said:

as I cannot think of many occasions where I have been overtaking a stream of traffic and ANYONE has left a 2x necessary gap - people just don't do that - it doesn't make sense - if you are following, you leave a safe gap, not twice that gap.

Agreed many dont. But if you were following me and local knowledge tells me I can't overtake for a while I will sit back and leave plenty of room, that maybe two times the gap you'd leave? If I am looking to overtake I will be near/or in contact to make my presence felt for those around me. Its about giving information as well as using it.

Agreed, me too.

But what about on dead-straight roads, where people clearly aren't overtaking (i've paused and given them the opportunity), but are too close to the car in front?!?

[A - W]

Have you considered moving out for a better look without commiting to the overtake?
In some circles its called water skiing? You only move position, you DONT accelerate, you are out on the opposite side to confirm the overtake is on.
This gives the information that you are intent on overtaking if it is safe to do so whilst giving you the time to take in information you might not be able to see on the normal side of the carriageway. Only when you are certain no one else is moving (or they have completed their overtake) do you then feed the flames and safely overtake.

Does that make sense?

Something for you to browse when you have chance.

www.advanced-driving.co.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=13

[havoc]

A - W said:

Have you considered moving out for a better look without commiting to the overtake?
In some circles its called water skiing?

Already do that. I'm not a banana-overtaker (if you know what I mean). Just because I'm arguing the apparently riskier side here, doesn't mean I'm a complete idiot!

I assume it's as regards letting others know about your presence...that only works if they use their mirrors!

[A - W]

I wasnt suggesting you were an idiot. It was just a helpful hint.

I know where your coming from with Banana overtaking also.

Edit: If trapping on, using your dipped headlights and positioning can alert people to your presence a lot earlier, but you already knew that.

I have a dark car which people seem to ignore so I generally have might lights on especially this time of year.

Edited by A - W on Tuesday 21st November 08:05

[drakart]

Havoc: i get your way of thinking, very similar to mine. There are too many posts to reply to, but all i would say is that i am never agressive and when pulling back into a queue, i do not barge in. i take my time and slowly move in. i have never forced anyone to slam on their brakes, ("force my way in" - simply means that slowly i have to make a gap rather than causing accidents by flinging my way in a small gap!). I would never overtake if there was something coming, i only overtake when i have plenty of time to get back in - even if i have to sit on the other side of the road for a while.
The fact is that there are alot of people (mainly men with wifes/girlfriends) that are offended by being overtaken. One experience i will never forget!... Driving down a very straight road (Lincs!) coming up to a lorry with a focus sat on its tail. I pulled out very early (lights on as i drive a black car) with indicators. i wont say what speed i was doing but it was enough to overtake these two with ease and glide back to national limit, as i got to the rear of the focus, he decided to pull out. i hit the brakes and swerved (two wheels on the grass verge). I looked across in amazement to see what this guy was doing(his female passenger was just sat there as if this happens everyday), and he very agressively yanked his wheel to the right leaving me on the grass at 60 fighting to keep in a straight line. He pulled back in to watch me fight me car, i held a long slide, got back on the road and went on my way again. Where do motorists stand with this sort of behaviour? He effectively tried to kill me, we had never met, i was not aggressive in any way, yet he could have easily killed me. I managed not to share any paintwork or crash into a tree, but i will never forget it as i have never (and hopefully ever will) seen anything like it. i didnt report it to the police as i didnt really know what they could do about it.

[Big Fat F'er]

havoc said:

I can only assume then that you never overtake where you would need to pull into the middle of a stream of traffic.

I don't rely on someone else to make a safe gap for me, and I dont force my way in.

havoc said:

As a consequence, I can only assume that when stuck (say) 10 or more cars behind a slow-moving truck you don't actually make any progress, but stick behind the increasingly sheep-like people in front of you who wouldn't dream of overtaking.

I would identify if a safe overtake was on. If I could safely do the line of cars in one go, I would. If I could safely do one or more cars and get into a gap I've identified as being safe I would. If I couldn't do either then I would wait.

havoc said:

I may be wrong, but that doesn't sound likely to me BFF - it sounds like a laudable ideal, but it doesn't hold water when it meets the real-world.

It may not be for everyone. That's up to them. But I can only assure you that it works for me (and others I'm with) every day, in all driving circumstances, driving in every major country in the world (and some not so major?!?), in all circumstances, driving many different types of vehicles, accompanied and solo. Anything is real world when you apply it.

havoc said:

As for the second point - attracting the attention of people in front of me when overtaking, what would you suggest I do extra

My main point was to ensure that you are happy that they are aware of your presence. Different circumstances require different actions. A headlamp flash or horn, without a 'proper' approach and position, can be seen as agressive. By knowing that, you can manage the possibility. But I would still recommend that you know, in your own mind, that they have seen you, before you GO GO GO.

havoc said:

is the risk of passing someone and them suddenly swerving into you THAT great? Sorry, but I don't think it is. Certainly not if you leave 3ft+.

I won't get into deciding the actual percentage of risk, as everyone will have a different opinion. Put it this way. If they don't know you are there, there is a possibility they may swerve into you. So why not try and manage and reduce that possibility? Once they've hit you, it's too late to say "whats the chances of that happening".

havoc said:

not trying to be antagonistic, but you seem to be taking a purist viewpoint whereas I'm talking about real-world situations.

No problem, Havoc, I don't see anything on here as antagonistic.

Tell you something. I NEVER say anything on here that I dont do. Thats the only way I can be so confident on here and elsewhere that it works and is correct. Thats why when we talk about the System (just as an example) I'm confident because I apply it every day. It's not just some theory that's been read up and taught. It's practical application.

So when I say don't go if there's not a safe gap, I mean that I don't, and I wish others wouldn't. I take the contact position when appropriate (the three stage overtake is not a requirement 100% of the time, it depends on the circumstance). I signal where appropriate. I seek assurance they are aware of my presence. I try and apply the techniques every time I drive, every day, in every circumstance.

So when some say "how the hell do you do all that", I answer "really well".

BFF

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Tuesday 21st November 13:08

[havoc]

Big Fat F'er said:

Tell you something. I NEVER say anything on here that I dont do. Thats the only way I can be so confident on here and elsewhere that it works and is correct. Thats why when we talk about the System (just as an example) I'm confident because I apply it every day. It's not just some theory that's been read up and taught. It's practical application.

So when I say don't go if there's not a safe gap, I mean that I don't, and I wish others wouldn't. I take the contact position when appropriate (the three stage overtake is not a requirement 100% of the time, it depends on the circumstance). I signal where appropriate. I seek assurance they are aware of my presence. I try and apply the techniques every time I drive, every day, in every circumstance.

Fair enough. I dare say you're probably a safer driver than me then.

[Big Fat F'er]

havoc said:

what about on dead-straight roads, where people clearly aren't overtaking but are too close to the car in front?!?

Havoc - just remember that sometimes, other drivers will do things that will hold you up. But it's the holding back your emotions and actions that makes you Advanced.

BFF

[Big Fat F'er]

havoc said:

Big Fat F'er said:

Tell you something. I NEVER say anything on here that I dont do.

Fair enough. I dare say you're probably a safer driver than me then.

No idea. This ain't a competition. I still like swapping ideas though.

[havoc]

Big Fat F'er said:

But it's the holding back your emotions and actions that makes you Advanced.

Long way for me then BFF...my blood pressure is never higher than when stuck behind a bunch of idiots who clearly have no clue.

I know it's a weakness, and I make a careful point not to do anything stupid. But I need more patience...or an extra couple of hours in the day, perhaps.

[huffy]

Hi everyone - I pop in here and read often - I find the discussion interesting but haven't posted having no advanced driving qualifications. I was particularly interested in this discussion though as there are several roads I drive and ride regularly where overtaking is required - to me it makes the drive more involving in any event. However that is not the purpose of this post - it was actually to comment on keeping the emotions in check. I freely admit that I when younger my approach was perhaps somewhat "enthusiastic" when it came to driving. Over the years I have mellowed and try extremely hard to just "sit back" and not rise to other bait on the road - it isn't easy and I have been known to fail but in part the change of approach came about when a few years back I helped my wife learn to drive.....I suddenly came over all sensible!!!! Interestingly (for me anyway) the discussions about driving my wife and I now have actually hinge largely around attitude. She has only been driving a few years and is younger than me but there are times I sit in the passenger watching her slowly get worked up about something or the other.....I know exactly how she feels most of the time but long since decided if I couldn't do something about it it wasn't worth getting worked up about. Her retort is always that I would get worked up too and in some cases she is correct (although I would never admit it ). I am rambling so I will apologise but my point if any at all is that these days my most satisfying drives are those where I have covered ground, made progress safely and not allowed the actions of others to wind me up. It doesn't always work, but I am trying to make it the norm!

[drakart]

I couldn't agree more Huffy. I rarely get annoyed(i would never show aggression to another road user), but i am amazed when other drivers get angry because you have shown what they are doing or how they drive is incorrect or dangerous on the road. I think that every driver can be helped with extra tuition through there driving years: skid courses, road courses etc. My father is a skid instructor in his spare time and he is amazed at some of the terrible standard of driving he sees from people with licences. Dont forget these people could be coming the other way! The problem we have is that the people who really need tuition will never get it.

[madleee]

Isn't part of advance driving 'defensive driving'?
Someone posted on here something pertinent.
Can you assume that a numpty who tailgates to be competent enough to deal with you trying to squeeze in?

Sounds arrogant but isn't it better to assume all drivers are incompetent until proven otherwise? And drive accordingly???

Seems that the percieved use of headlight flashing has changed.
Joe Public see it as a courtesy jesture, and any car behind flashing is either an Emergency Vehicle or behaving aggressively.

I thought that overtaking more than 3 vehicles at one time was a potential wreckless driving charge...

Some people are regarding overtaking as queue jumping, similar to shouting "I'm here" and then jumping to the counter at the Post office on Pension day.

Some beleive that if they are patient enough to drive 20 or 30 below NSL due to a tractor then everyone else should and by overtaking you are commiting a cardinal offence. These people are trying to teach other drivers a lesson.

Whatever happened to driver courtesy and moving to the side to allow a faster driver to pass?

It's time the Govt started public information films again.
There are a lot of ignorant drivers out there.

(Self Righteous Mode off)

[drakart]

Can of worms...

I believe the issue is that people do not take driving seriously enough. I may be wrong, but in the Usa aren't cars classed as deadly weapon if used in aggression

[havoc]

madleee said:

I thought that overtaking more than 3 vehicles at one time was a potential reckless driving charge...

Are you sure?

That, given current driving standards (re: distances to car in front) and the quantity of sheep on the roads who will never overtake, would make passing a slow-moving truck/tractor pretty much impossible, if adhering to BFF's safe approach. (No criticism there BFF, just joining-the-dots)

Gotta love this country, haven't you?!?

[drakart]

I must say i've never heard of that! if that was true, "Take me away officer and throw away the key!". Maybe the "sheep" think this and that is the reason that they do not overtake?!

[m12_nathan]

havoc said:

madleee said:

I thought that overtaking more than 3 vehicles at one time was a potential reckless driving charge...

Are you sure?

That, given current driving standards (re: distances to car in front) and the quantity of sheep on the roads who will never overtake, would make passing a slow-moving truck/tractor pretty much impossible, if adhering to BFF's safe approach. (No criticism there BFF, just joining-the-dots)

Gotta love this country, haven't you?!?

Tim Milne who used to write for evo lost his license after overtaking a row of 5 cars in his Evo RS (including a police car), seems strange doesn't it, the police were probably just upset that they didn't have the power to carry out the same overtake