IAM - how to attract younger drivers?
Discussion
my 17 yr old daughter was pretty put off by the local IAM group. She learnt to drive at the Under 17 Car Club (big plug) which is a fabulous organisation promoting the learning of driving to high standards to the under 17s! Its members (starting at 12 or 13) get to learn and be assessed according to a grading system. It is very well thought out and organised (which was what my local IAM group didnt appear to be).
It is very attractive to younger drivers as they get to drive at a very early age and there are lots of other activities in a season along with regular driving practice (karting, rallying, skid pans, truck and fire engine driving, higher speed car control etc).
It has an event pretty much every weekend between about march and november.
I have one teenager through the club, one at it and one starting next year. It's excellent for the under 17s!!
Graham
It is very attractive to younger drivers as they get to drive at a very early age and there are lots of other activities in a season along with regular driving practice (karting, rallying, skid pans, truck and fire engine driving, higher speed car control etc).
It has an event pretty much every weekend between about march and november.
I have one teenager through the club, one at it and one starting next year. It's excellent for the under 17s!!
Graham
yes good idea. I think the club is currently working on how to keep the thing going for 17+'s. Quite a few go on to do IAM or Rospa and the club is working on encouraging this I'll bring ADUK to the attention of the U17cc powers that be (I'm a mere vassal!).
U17CC was featured on the Beeb's recent young driver week thing!
Graham
U17CC was featured on the Beeb's recent young driver week thing!
Graham
StevRS said:
I'm a 26 year old IAM member and I think they have a massive image problem. The popular impression among my peers (who are mostly professionals around the 30 mark) is that the IAM are a group of wheel-shuffling dawdlers with an almost anal approach to speed.
In many ways this is why I posted my question earlier, I couldn't get a handle on what the IAM are actually like. The website doesn't give much away. I want to make up for my lack of actual road time by using intelligence and learning better skills for driving, and I'm actually actively looking to do that, rather than many younger drivers who probably need more coercion.
Whilst I can see that driving skill and safety are close bedfellows, I guess (as has been pointed out before), that safety isn't the key aspect teenagers are looking for. So from the point of view of someone wanting to become 'Advanced' I would agree that IAM have an image problem and should probably adjust their focus to the improvement of skills.
That said, I'm still going to contact my local group and arrange my first observed drive!
JohnnyPanic said:
StevRS said:
I'm a 26 year old IAM member and I think they have a massive image problem. The popular impression among my peers (who are mostly professionals around the 30 mark) is that the IAM are a group of wheel-shuffling dawdlers with an almost anal approach to speed.
In many ways this is why I posted my question earlier, I couldn't get a handle on what the IAM are actually like. The website doesn't give much away. I want to make up for my lack of actual road time by using intelligence and learning better skills for driving, and I'm actually actively looking to do that, rather than many younger drivers who probably need more coercion.
Whilst I can see that driving skill and safety are close bedfellows, I guess (as has been pointed out before), that safety isn't the key aspect teenagers are looking for. So from the point of view of someone wanting to become 'Advanced' I would agree that IAM have an image problem and should probably adjust their focus to the improvement of skills.
That said, I'm still going to contact my local group and arrange my first observed drive!
Go for it and see how you get on. I have talked about my own and my daughter's experience, but someone else has posted on here how good he found the very same group. Horses for courses really!
Graham
StevRS said:
I'm a 26 year old IAM member and I think they have a massive image problem. The popular impression among my peers (who are mostly professionals around the 30 mark) is that the IAM are a group of wheel-shuffling dawdlers with an almost anal approach to speed. As a member and having attended IAM nights I can understand why this is. I dread to think what an 18 year old's view of the institute is!
At a recent ANPR demo by the local police station, one IAM member suggested electronically cutting the throttle when the speed limit was reached - this opinion was seconded by another member. Thankfully the officer giving the demo wasn't as stupid and rightly pointed out that he does not want his throttle cutting when he's overtaking a tractor!
The only way the IAM are going to attract younger members is by focusing more on driver skill and less on hard and fast rules. I recall one of my early observed runs when my observer told me 3rd at 30, 4th at 40 - my TDi is more than happy in 5th at 40 (and even 6th on the flat) and I explained that modern TDi's do not need to be driven like 1970's 1000cc petrol cars - there was a complete lack of flexibility and I was told I was wrong. Needless to say now I have pased the test I drive in an appropriate gear for m speed and the conditions and gradient, rather than applying a blanket ruling.
Lets see more appropriate, modern teachings. Less focus on blanket rulings and more focus on what is appropriate for today's roads. Without a modernisation of the institute I believe it will slowly die out.
Wow, what a miserable chap I sound like on my first post!
Interesting post.
I'm only 43, but have been in a do I, or don't I, situation as regards doing the IAM for a number of years.
I spent many years in competitions doing everything from sprinting, autotesting and rallying plus track days, in an assortment of Escort RS's and Talbot Sunbeam's including Ti and Lotus versions.
However, when driving my normal everyday car, I automatically 'revert' to 'wheel shuffling'
mode, albeit not exactly in 'old git dawdle mode'
This is because I grew up with this method, as my late father was a Copper, so I was constantly exposed to a 'advanced' way of driving even before I could drive, either from my Dad or the many occasions of going for rides in the back of police cars.....which was easy to arrange back in the good old days of the 1970's.
Although I had 'formal' driving school lessons, my Dad (or if he was working, one of his collegues) used to take me out for practice as much as possible leading up to taking my test, and always made do 'Hendon Class 1' style running commentary etc., to hone my observation technique's etc.
Having a motorcycle license also dramatically hones your car driving observation as well I find, instinctively doing 'lifesaver' shoulder checks in the car and not relying 100% on mirrors because of blind spots etc.
MrKipling43 said:
The other great thing about 'wheel-shuffling' is that you don't end up with a perfect reversed inprint of your watch bezel in your forehead when the airbag goes off during an 'in-corner' head on collision.
But because of the clearly-reduced rate at which you can turn the wheel, you are more likely to have said collision!
You're right...but you DO need to consider the whole situation first.
havoc said:
MrKipling43 said:
The other great thing about 'wheel-shuffling' is that you don't end up with a perfect reversed inprint of your watch bezel in your forehead when the airbag goes off during an 'in-corner' head on collision.
But because of the clearly-reduced rate at which you can turn the wheel, you are more likely to have said collision!
You're right...but you DO need to consider the whole situation first.
Havoc - there isn't a situation on 'the road', driving within 'the law' that cannot be dealt with by pull-push. You can do any corner/bend, at any speed up to NSL, and still be always 100% in control.
But maybe you're thinking of other situations!!!
""Havoc - there isn't a situation on 'the road', driving within 'the law' that cannot be dealt with by pull-push.""
Including the Inner and Outer handling tracks and the Hill course at Millbrook...John Lyon did say "You can't teach an old dog new tricks"..but we stayed on the black bits.
BOF
Including the Inner and Outer handling tracks and the Hill course at Millbrook...John Lyon did say "You can't teach an old dog new tricks"..but we stayed on the black bits.
BOF
Edited by BOF on Wednesday 22 November 12:52
Big Fat F'er said:
havoc said:
MrKipling43 said:
The other great thing about 'wheel-shuffling' is that you don't end up with a perfect reversed inprint of your watch bezel in your forehead when the airbag goes off during an 'in-corner' head on collision.
But because of the clearly-reduced rate at which you can turn the wheel, you are more likely to have said collision!
You're right...but you DO need to consider the whole situation first.
Havoc - there isn't a situation on 'the road', driving within 'the law' that cannot be dealt with by pull-push. You can do any corner/bend, at any speed up to NSL, and still be always 100% in control.
In reference to Kipling's post, I was referring to some idiot rounding a corner partially on your side of the road. In that instance, rapid steering left could be enough to either avoid a collision or turn it into a glancing blow to your o/s panels...which could be the difference between a hospital stay or not.
So I would suggest that YOU can be 'within the law' 100%. But if the other idiot isn't 'within the law', you won't get any points for saying 'I was in the right' from a wheelchair or worse. I use whatever steering seems most appropriate at the time - typically fixed-input for high-speed flowing roads, arm-over-arm for low-speed manoeuvering, pull-push for general around-town work.
havoc said:
I use whatever steering seems most appropriate at the time - typically fixed-input for high-speed flowing roads, arm-over-arm for low-speed manoeuvering, pull-push for general around-town work.
My point isn't who's right and wrong. Always pointless.
My point was pull-push. Always usable.
Don't forget. I'm not saying those mentioned above WON'T work. I'm saying pull-push WILL. Even in the circumstances you describe.
BFF
Ahhh the old push pull debate. We have that one regularly! 
Here's my take on it. Push pull is perfectly good. It will deal with any on road steering requirement given you are following the system carefully enough. Its the only one you need at your disposal to pass the IAM test. In fact - on the IAM test you should use it for the very most part.
However - a good driver should have all the best steering techniques at his/her disposal.
These are: rotational steering. Handy during manouevres. Also handy winding on lots of lock and unwinding it very, very fast whilst sliding around on a skid pan for example. I've seen people using push-pull on that and making a rare meal of it.
And also: fixed position steering. Where your hands remain at the same point on the wheel at all times. Typically best on track as you can apply lock smoothly and swiftly and always know when the wheels are pointing straight ahead - even if the car is not . The downside is that you can only apply so much lock - not a problem on a track with no sharp corners - but not so handy on road.
I've also seen Andy Walsh's rather amazing method of hand over hand steering - which appears to work but I've not mastered it.
When it comes to steering its horses for courses. On road? Push pull does the job and is the only one you need. Unless you're in the habit of needing to look out the side window to see which way you are going. And you wouldn't do that on road now would you.
Oh. I did a rally course. Admitted at the beginning I was an Advanced Driver to a groan from the instructor! At the end - he praised my steering technique - which was mostly with the throttle
Here's my take on it. Push pull is perfectly good. It will deal with any on road steering requirement given you are following the system carefully enough. Its the only one you need at your disposal to pass the IAM test. In fact - on the IAM test you should use it for the very most part.
However - a good driver should have all the best steering techniques at his/her disposal.
These are: rotational steering. Handy during manouevres. Also handy winding on lots of lock and unwinding it very, very fast whilst sliding around on a skid pan
for example. I've seen people using push-pull on that and making a rare meal of it. And also: fixed position steering. Where your hands remain at the same point on the wheel at all times. Typically best on track as you can apply lock smoothly and swiftly and always know when the wheels are pointing straight ahead - even if the car is not
. The downside is that you can only apply so much lock - not a problem on a track with no sharp corners - but not so handy on road. I've also seen Andy Walsh's rather amazing method of hand over hand steering - which appears to work but I've not mastered it.
When it comes to steering its horses for courses. On road? Push pull does the job and is the only one you need. Unless you're in the habit of needing to look out the side window to see which way you are going. And you wouldn't do that on road now would you.
Oh. I did a rally course. Admitted at the beginning I was an Advanced Driver to a groan from the instructor! At the end - he praised my steering technique - which was mostly with the throttle
Don said:
When it comes to steering its horses for courses. On road? Push pull does the job and is the only one you need. Unless you're in the habit of needing to look out the side window to see which way you are going. And you wouldn't do that on road now would you. hehe
No way
As I'm sure you wouldn't either. It was the Walshy hand over hand technique that I meant, that is what I use all the time, rightly or wrongly.
I think Don that your post actually displays the exact mentality that the IAM must display in order to attract more, and younger people. Some posters on this forums come accross as so self righteous and up themselves with their blinkered approach to what is right and wrong with no debating or interest in other peoples point of view. If it is in the book then it is right and everyone else is wrong. These people are why the IAM is seen how it is.
Edited by m12_nathan on Wednesday 22 November 18:43
m12_nathan said:
I think Don that your post actually displays the exact mentality that the IAM must display in order to attract more, and younger people.
That's very kind, thank you.
m12_nathan said:
If it is in the book then it is right and everyone else is wrong. These people are why the IAM is seen how it is.
Well - I have never found anything in "Roadcraft" to be wrong. It even speaks about "rotational" steering being useful in the exact situations I mentioned. It doesn't mention fixed position steering - partly as its not really something you'd use much on road - more "Trackcraft" than "Roadcraft". "Trackcraft" being a very, very different discipline. It has examples, though, that can make learning Roadcraft more fun.
When teaching I try to always explain why something is the way it is. Some people really need this to understand and feel it's useful and applicable...especially things that may be contrary to what they've learned originally - like "going down the box" and so on. I also like to adopt a "coaching" approach wherein I remind someone of something that didn't go as nicely as they'd have liked it to and I try to suggest how an aspect of Roadcraft could improve things.
There isn't always time to do things that way, however, and with some topics we just have to adopt a lesson approach.
m12_nathan said:
Don said:
Well - I have never found anything in "Roadcraft" to be wrong.
I'm sure that is true but that fact doesn't mean that every other approach to an aspect of driving is wrong and doesn't warrent discussion.
Indeed. I agree completely. The IAM course relies on the experiences of people coming to it in order to be effective. If you can't relate something to people's ordinaryy experience of driving (they MUST have some!) then you can't convince them of its applicability!
Alternative techniques may also be applicable.
More often than not this isn't any problem to build into a candidate's driving style that will gain them the IAM advanced test pass they want.
Occasionally there are some things that need to be "pandered to" in order to pass the test. EVEN SO: the exercise of going through looking at why a particular technique is used and why it is an important part of the test is usually valuable for the candidate - even if they choose not to adopt it into their driving style after the test.
For example: me - I heel and toe when pressing on. Its not part of the system but is a technique that has a value. Do I habitually brake gear overlap on road: no. No need. But when its useful I 'm going to do it.
Associates who train with me hopefully understand this - I try hard to make it clear what is good for "test", what is "good", what is BAD and what may not be useful for the test but may be useful all the same...
m12_nathan said:
Don said:
Well - I have never found anything in "Roadcraft" to be wrong.
I'm sure that is true but that fact doesn't mean that every other approach to an aspect of driving is wrong and doesn't warrent discussion.
M12 - who's trying to stop your discussion (let us know and we'll go get him for you).
I'm with Don on this (always have been in fact). Stated simply, nothing in Roadcraft is 'wrong'. Other things may also be 'right'. But some of them are 'wrong'. Even if you like it, it may still be 'wrong'. Even if it's your preferred method. By the way, I said MAY be, so don't get upset.
From what I've seen on here, there are some very good discussions. No ones tried to stop any so far that I can see. There some good stuff covered every day.
Personal attributes and approaches - well, perhaps you shouldn't take them too seriously. I don't, and I'm sure many others don't either. Lets face it, some on here come across as childsh in the extreme, needing to get out, get a life and grow up. But it shouldn't bother you, 'cos thats life.
Oh, the seriousness of youth.
BFF
Big Fat F'er said:
m12_nathan said:
Don said:
Well - I have never found anything in "Roadcraft" to be wrong.
I'm sure that is true but that fact doesn't mean that every other approach to an aspect of driving is wrong and doesn't warrent discussion.
My last post didn't answer this too well. All things warrant discussion when it comes to Advanced Driving - so I agree with you. People often need to dicuss the rights and wrongs of things, the advantages and disadvantages and, importantly, the reasons for things in order to learn them and adapt them into their driving style.
Big Fat F'er said:
I'm with Don on this (always have been in fact). Stated simply, nothing in Roadcraft is 'wrong'. Other things may also be 'right'.
Indeed.
Big Fat F'er said:
Oh, the seriousness of youth.
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