Learning to brake...
Discussion
following on from the topics of weight transfer, I am interested in the topic of braking. Now I'm thinking purely track here, but want to get the view of advanced drivers.
I have done quite a few trackdays over the years and one race. The thing that I know about my track driving is that effective braking is my weakness. Now for track days, it's not a problem, I'm quite smooth, can judge cornering speeds ok and my braking is fail-safe. Ie I dont brake too hard and I do it early which leaves plenty of contingency.
So, getting to the point...I am thinking of doing some racing in '07 and I know that my braking will let me down.
How does one systematically improve braking? By this I mean brake later and harder. Are there techniques (other than braking later and harder)?
Graham
I have done quite a few trackdays over the years and one race. The thing that I know about my track driving is that effective braking is my weakness. Now for track days, it's not a problem, I'm quite smooth, can judge cornering speeds ok and my braking is fail-safe. Ie I dont brake too hard and I do it early which leaves plenty of contingency.
So, getting to the point...I am thinking of doing some racing in '07 and I know that my braking will let me down.
How does one systematically improve braking? By this I mean brake later and harder. Are there techniques (other than braking later and harder)?
Graham
yep I do consciously think of brake, turn-in, apex etc. It should just be a question of learning the circuit and moving the braking point later each lap. But somehow, that doesn't quite seem to work for me. I thought that there may be a technique to judge where to brake and how to get it later!
Graham
Graham
gridgway said:
I thought that there may be a technique to judge where to brake and how to get it later!
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your question, because I can't really see the problem. If you are using reference points, you can tweak your braking points based on them. If you finish braking and find you're coasting into the corner then by moving your braking point back you can eliminate the coasting. Move your braking point back by (say) half the distance you were coasting and try again. Isn't that what you're trying to achieve?
yep practice. i always pic a false target to use as the optimum braking point. a phantom one thats earlier than the real one and aim to shead of the speed at that point. that way if iv misjudged it then i dont end up in the grass. be for long u will have it down just how much braking is needed
Actually gridgway, this is an enormous subject with many nuances as I’m sure you appreciate.It’s interesting that you are aware that it is going to be a weakness when you go racing this year. Good start.
If you are racing against modern folk who have been brought up on a diet fit for ‘last of the late brakers’, a diet that will have consisted ABS assisted, hot slicks and huge bakes, let alone an appetite for clanging into you as you turn in, you will have you hands full.
When you are putting together a fast lap, I think it’s a very common mistake to ‘overbrake’. The truism is that you’ll go faster the less you brake (the less you pitch, let the car breath, keep tyre temps lower etc etc) as you appear to have cottoned on to on your circuit days. However it all goes to pieces when there’s three of you diving into the braking area at the same time on the final corner of the final lap, with the girl friend watching.
In order for you to optimize you late braking techniques, I’d suggest you slightly modify your perfect line into a given corner to give yourself a little margin; I’d not quite brake down the ‘outside’ of the road and if anything, I’d start to turn in slightly earlier. By moving the car ‘inwards’, you’d give yourself a little more ‘meat’/circuit to work with if you do suffer lock up.
Then persue braking later and harder.
Then it’s down to your ‘feel’ and car control to smoothly but WITH PURPOSE, get the speed off and turn into the corner. You’ll often hear people talk about ‘trail braking’ into a corner where you have braked late enough that you are still slowing the car as you start your turn in. This is a 3 dimensional imperfect art thing of balance, combining losing speed, turning and at the same time changing the attitude of the car from nose-down to tail down/power on. While this won’t get you the fastest line it should enable you to brake later than the opposition; I also think it says to them or displays a certain ‘determination’ on your part which may make your pursuers think twice about balls out dive down the inside.
Of course, if they are that close and ‘gaining’ on you and shaping up to outbrake down the inside, it’s acceptable of you to park you car in the way, shutting the door. Do it early, and that will of course compromise your line. Fine. Experience is the only way you’ll pick up how to block successfully and also maintain good enough speed to keep in front: very difficult.
If you can manage to eke out a length or two, that will then allow you to get back onto the fastest line/rhythm and hopefully away. But racing defensively AND fast enough to drop them, well as I said that puts the emphasis on car control. Maybe during practice, you can try different ‘defensive‘ lines just to see how they work. Same as in the wet, if you are compromised, you cannot take the fastest line so give yourself a little extra margin and aim to use meatier areas of circuit for regaining control.
Finally, re car control, never ‘give up’ trying to get the car back in line. Don’t freeze the moment a wheel locks or someone gets alongside, DRIVE through the moment. Don’t let them get away with anything without a door handle to door handle fight, squeeze them, harry them, get them back immediately, keep them unsettled. Practice all this on a skid pan first, try ‘improvising’ (get a mate to unexpectedly bowl a tyre out in front of you when you already all ends up). Be happy racing ‘off line’.
Sorry it’s a long post, and good luck. You are going to have to use up some of that ‘contingency’! If you think 'braking' a big subject, then try 'overtaking'!
If you are racing against modern folk who have been brought up on a diet fit for ‘last of the late brakers’, a diet that will have consisted ABS assisted, hot slicks and huge bakes, let alone an appetite for clanging into you as you turn in, you will have you hands full.
When you are putting together a fast lap, I think it’s a very common mistake to ‘overbrake’. The truism is that you’ll go faster the less you brake (the less you pitch, let the car breath, keep tyre temps lower etc etc) as you appear to have cottoned on to on your circuit days. However it all goes to pieces when there’s three of you diving into the braking area at the same time on the final corner of the final lap, with the girl friend watching.
In order for you to optimize you late braking techniques, I’d suggest you slightly modify your perfect line into a given corner to give yourself a little margin; I’d not quite brake down the ‘outside’ of the road and if anything, I’d start to turn in slightly earlier. By moving the car ‘inwards’, you’d give yourself a little more ‘meat’/circuit to work with if you do suffer lock up.
Then persue braking later and harder.
Then it’s down to your ‘feel’ and car control to smoothly but WITH PURPOSE, get the speed off and turn into the corner. You’ll often hear people talk about ‘trail braking’ into a corner where you have braked late enough that you are still slowing the car as you start your turn in. This is a 3 dimensional imperfect art thing of balance, combining losing speed, turning and at the same time changing the attitude of the car from nose-down to tail down/power on. While this won’t get you the fastest line it should enable you to brake later than the opposition; I also think it says to them or displays a certain ‘determination’ on your part which may make your pursuers think twice about balls out dive down the inside.
Of course, if they are that close and ‘gaining’ on you and shaping up to outbrake down the inside, it’s acceptable of you to park you car in the way, shutting the door. Do it early, and that will of course compromise your line. Fine. Experience is the only way you’ll pick up how to block successfully and also maintain good enough speed to keep in front: very difficult.
If you can manage to eke out a length or two, that will then allow you to get back onto the fastest line/rhythm and hopefully away. But racing defensively AND fast enough to drop them, well as I said that puts the emphasis on car control. Maybe during practice, you can try different ‘defensive‘ lines just to see how they work. Same as in the wet, if you are compromised, you cannot take the fastest line so give yourself a little extra margin and aim to use meatier areas of circuit for regaining control.
Finally, re car control, never ‘give up’ trying to get the car back in line. Don’t freeze the moment a wheel locks or someone gets alongside, DRIVE through the moment. Don’t let them get away with anything without a door handle to door handle fight, squeeze them, harry them, get them back immediately, keep them unsettled. Practice all this on a skid pan first, try ‘improvising’ (get a mate to unexpectedly bowl a tyre out in front of you when you already all ends up). Be happy racing ‘off line’.
Sorry it’s a long post, and good luck. You are going to have to use up some of that ‘contingency’! If you think 'braking' a big subject, then try 'overtaking'!
GreenV8S said:
gridgway said:
I thought that there may be a technique to judge where to brake and how to get it later!
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your question, because I can't really see the problem. If you are using reference points, you can tweak your braking points based on them. If you finish braking and find you're coasting into the corner then by moving your braking point back you can eliminate the coasting. Move your braking point back by (say) half the distance you were coasting and try again. Isn't that what you're trying to achieve?
I may be confusing myself here, but if he does this, won't he need to brake harder by leaving it later due to his speed being higher? Is braking harder and later a better technique than braking earlier and with a less insistant force?
Combover said:
GreenV8S said:
gridgway said:
I thought that there may be a technique to judge where to brake and how to get it later!
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your question, because I can't really see the problem. If you are using reference points, you can tweak your braking points based on them. If you finish braking and find you're coasting into the corner then by moving your braking point back you can eliminate the coasting. Move your braking point back by (say) half the distance you were coasting and try again. Isn't that what you're trying to achieve?
I may be confusing myself here, but if he does this, won't he need to brake harder by leaving it later due to his speed being higher? Is braking harder and later a better technique than braking earlier and with a less insistant force?
The original question was learning how to judge the latest braking point, the OP was habitually braking too early and then having to coast for a while before turning into the corner. My suggestion was to move the whole braking manoeuver a bit closer to the corner by starting it a little later - judged by the use of reference points. Moving the braking point back will mean that you're accelerating for an extra few yards so in theory you'll end up travelling fractionally faster at the point you hit the brakes, but in practical terms the difference is negligeable.
gridgway said:
following on from the topics of weight transfer, I am interested in the topic of braking. Now I'm thinking purely track here, but want to get the view of advanced drivers.
I have done quite a few trackdays over the years and one race. The thing that I know about my track driving is that effective braking is my weakness. Now for track days, it's not a problem, I'm quite smooth, can judge cornering speeds ok and my braking is fail-safe. Ie I dont brake too hard and I do it early which leaves plenty of contingency.
So, getting to the point...I am thinking of doing some racing in '07 and I know that my braking will let me down.
How does one systematically improve braking? By this I mean brake later and harder. Are there techniques (other than braking later and harder)?
Graham
I have done quite a few trackdays over the years and one race. The thing that I know about my track driving is that effective braking is my weakness. Now for track days, it's not a problem, I'm quite smooth, can judge cornering speeds ok and my braking is fail-safe. Ie I dont brake too hard and I do it early which leaves plenty of contingency.
So, getting to the point...I am thinking of doing some racing in '07 and I know that my braking will let me down.
How does one systematically improve braking? By this I mean brake later and harder. Are there techniques (other than braking later and harder)?
Graham
You would probably benefit from some track/ race specific instruction; try a PM to Simon Mason, who sometimes appears on the racing/ motorsport threads - I recommend him.
Edited by andy97 on Thursday 4th January 12:21
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