Left Foot braking
Discussion
IMVHO - this is one of the biggest red herrings given out by would-be racers. In fact it's a very good ruse for giving to junior racers to distract themselves with, instead of letting them sort out proper race driving basics and getting faster!
LFB is entirely relevant for loose surface rallying however but nothing to do with circuit stuff.
LFB is entirely relevant for loose surface rallying however but nothing to do with circuit stuff.
ph123 said:
IMVHO - this is one of the biggest red herrings given out by would-be racers. In fact it's a very good ruse for giving to junior racers to distract themselves with, instead of letting them sort out proper race driving basics and getting faster!
LFB is entirely relevant for loose surface rallying however but nothing to do with circuit stuff.
LFB is entirely relevant for loose surface rallying however but nothing to do with circuit stuff.
i agree, from what people seem to be saying i can't see how an advantage can be gained by doing it, unless your rallying or in F1. It's probably much more useful to get the rest of the driving sorted first.
924racer said:
ph123 said:
IMVHO - this is one of the biggest red herrings given out by would-be racers. In fact it's a very good ruse for giving to junior racers to distract themselves with, instead of letting them sort out proper race driving basics and getting faster!
LFB is entirely relevant for loose surface rallying however but nothing to do with circuit stuff.
LFB is entirely relevant for loose surface rallying however but nothing to do with circuit stuff.
i agree, from what people seem to be saying i can't see how an advantage can be gained by doing it, unless your rallying or in F1. It's probably much more useful to get the rest of the driving sorted first.
Agreed, but it does have it uses on the road, especially in FWD cars.
I initially tried this and yes... came close to hitting the dash, but now I'm much more used to it, find it very useful. Coming to tricky corners find it the best way to go into and out of them. H&T downshift to get the right gear, then slide left foot over onto brake while still braking with right foot, let the left take over, then power out while lessening brake pressure keeping it the in case of understeer.
Trail braking I think it's called. Loeb was very adept at it when he raced for Pescarolo at Le Mans and found some speed where others didn't.
It feels and looks much quicker, cos there's no perceptable change from braking to acceleration. It's a cable throttle car, so no ECU problems.
Trail braking I think it's called. Loeb was very adept at it when he raced for Pescarolo at Le Mans and found some speed where others didn't.
It feels and looks much quicker, cos there's no perceptable change from braking to acceleration. It's a cable throttle car, so no ECU problems.
Edited by LaSarthe&Back on Thursday 31st May 16:08
doctorpepper said:
Martin Keene said:
It's primary use is to adjust the balanc of a car mid corner. It is particulary useful for killing understeer in a FWD car.
Andy Walsh will also teach you how to kill oversteer in RWD cars using LFB mid corner...
Now thats a tricky one to use when the time comes!
Only works if you don't have ABS too, and its not exactly good for the tyres. Handy if you've run out of lock I guess, but if you are good enough to then use a LFB lockup to correct, then you probably won't be that out of shape in the first place.
Walshy can also show you how to change gear when using left foot braking, but frankly it's pretty ludicrous and I can't do it. You basically return to right foot braking whilst on the brakes by switching feet. To do this you need to push your left foot off with your right foot to maintain consistent braking. The left foot then passes under the clutch and around onto the clutch. I've tried a couple of times, but I haven't really tried to master it.
renny said:
Don't try left foot braking on a modern fly-by-wire throttle car. It causes all sorts of problems. The ECUs get confused and just cut the power.
The problem I've had with our first FBWT car. My wife's Nissan Micra 160SR.
A thread I started on a Subaru forum, I have an Impreza Turbo, brought forth replies along similar lines with regard to VAG group cars.
It annoys me so, I can't heel and toe, double declutching is difficult because there is a delay between my asking for revs and the ECU deciding to give me them.
We did both notice this delay in the throttle response on our test drive but didn't really investigate further at the time.
Then that rather naughty technique for discouraging tailgaters, the touch of the brake to illuminate brake lights while keeping power on, becomes difficult.
So who, in the development of these systems decides what we are allowed to use as driving techniques?
Or is it now lowest common denominator (muppet driver), as in so many other areas?
Kiwi XTR2 said:
[quote=WhoseGeneration?]. . . double declutching is difficult . . .
Why would you even be trying to?[/quote]
Because it's a technique I've used, when I consider it appropriate, for decades.
Both changing up and down. Of course the upshift doesn't need a blip of the throttle.
I repeat, I do not like car manufacturers deciding how I should use their their products.
[quote=WhoseGeneration?]
The problem I've had with our first FBWT car. My wife's Nissan Micra 160SR.
A thread I started on a Subaru forum, I have an Impreza Turbo, brought forth replies along similar lines with regard to VAG group cars.
It annoys me so, I can't heel and toe, double declutching is difficult because there is a delay between my asking for revs and the ECU deciding to give me them.
We did both notice this delay in the throttle response on our test drive but didn't really investigate further at the time.
Then that rather naughty technique for discouraging tailgaters, the touch of the brake to illuminate brake lights while keeping power on, becomes difficult.
So who, in the development of these systems decides what we are allowed to use as driving techniques?
Or is it now lowest common denominator (muppet driver), as in so many other areas?
[/quote]
They still accomodate these things in what most would consider drivers cars. I guess they don't expect that demographic to buy Micras!
Even my GT3 has problems letting you left foot brake unless you come off the throttle entirely once you are on the brake. Think it's to do with fly by wire safety protocol - it assumes an electical problem if the accelerator is down and then you apply the brake whilst still on the throttle. It then cuts out after a couple of seconds, although if you come off the throttle before reapplying it works ok. Apparently it can be disabled on the ECU if you know the right people, but there are very few who are competent to do it.
renny said:
Don't try left foot braking on a modern fly-by-wire throttle car. It causes all sorts of problems. The ECUs get confused and just cut the power.
The problem I've had with our first FBWT car. My wife's Nissan Micra 160SR.
A thread I started on a Subaru forum, I have an Impreza Turbo, brought forth replies along similar lines with regard to VAG group cars.
It annoys me so, I can't heel and toe, double declutching is difficult because there is a delay between my asking for revs and the ECU deciding to give me them.
We did both notice this delay in the throttle response on our test drive but didn't really investigate further at the time.
Then that rather naughty technique for discouraging tailgaters, the touch of the brake to illuminate brake lights while keeping power on, becomes difficult.
So who, in the development of these systems decides what we are allowed to use as driving techniques?
Or is it now lowest common denominator (muppet driver), as in so many other areas?
[/quote]
They still accomodate these things in what most would consider drivers cars. I guess they don't expect that demographic to buy Micras!
Even my GT3 has problems letting you left foot brake unless you come off the throttle entirely once you are on the brake. Think it's to do with fly by wire safety protocol - it assumes an electical problem if the accelerator is down and then you apply the brake whilst still on the throttle. It then cuts out after a couple of seconds, although if you come off the throttle before reapplying it works ok. Apparently it can be disabled on the ECU if you know the right people, but there are very few who are competent to do it.
[quote=WhoseGeneration?]I do not like car manufacturers deciding how I should use their products.
[/quote]
Neither do I, and from what I read it appears that some of the modern cars are preventing drivers from using certain little elements of their driving style.
As I have said before, driver aids are one thing, but basic safety features apart, these features should be under the control of the driver. It should be possible to enable or disable them, so that they do not place restrictions on how drivers behave.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
[/quote]
Neither do I, and from what I read it appears that some of the modern cars are preventing drivers from using certain little elements of their driving style.
As I have said before, driver aids are one thing, but basic safety features apart, these features should be under the control of the driver. It should be possible to enable or disable them, so that they do not place restrictions on how drivers behave.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS said:
[quote=WhoseGeneration?]I do not like car manufacturers deciding how I should use their products.
Neither do I, and from what I read it appears that some of the modern cars are preventing drivers from using certain little elements of their driving style.
As I have said before, driver aids are one thing, but basic safety features apart, these features should be under the control of the driver. It should be possible to enable or disable them, so that they do not place restrictions on how drivers behave.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
[/quote]
Ah, but the enjoyment of driving is deeply incorrect in this political climate. Cars should solely be used as joyless conveyances for key workers and government lackeys.
DanH said:
....the enjoyment of driving is deeply incorrect in this political climate. Cars should solely be used as joyless conveyances for key workers and government lackeys.
I beg your pardon, Dan. You're quite right. I am in urgent need of a change of attitude.
Best wishes all,
Dave - a relic of a bygone era.
With all due respect, your view would be one as a relic from a bygone age.
Modern cars certainly are imperfect driving machines I don’t disagree. But in the main, the performance levels – mph, mpg, attainable average speeds etc – are incredibly good.
You want to get at the ECU so you can get a proper blip or disconnect the circuit which says don’t press the brake and accelerator at the same time? You want to stay with the 40 DCOEs? Surely not.
Does the modern driver know how to behave?
Modern cars certainly are imperfect driving machines I don’t disagree. But in the main, the performance levels – mph, mpg, attainable average speeds etc – are incredibly good.
You want to get at the ECU so you can get a proper blip or disconnect the circuit which says don’t press the brake and accelerator at the same time? You want to stay with the 40 DCOEs? Surely not.
Does the modern driver know how to behave?
Edited by ph123 on Friday 12th January 07:41
ph123 said:
With all due respect, your view would be one as a relic from a bygone age.
Modern cars certainly are imperfect driving machines I don’t disagree. But in the main, the performance levels – mph, mpg, attainable average speeds etc – are incredibly good.
You want to get at the ECU so you can get a proper blip or disconnect the circuit which says don’t press the brake and accelerator at the same time? You want to stay with the 40 DCOEs? Surely not.
Modern cars certainly are imperfect driving machines I don’t disagree. But in the main, the performance levels – mph, mpg, attainable average speeds etc – are incredibly good.
You want to get at the ECU so you can get a proper blip or disconnect the circuit which says don’t press the brake and accelerator at the same time? You want to stay with the 40 DCOEs? Surely not.
I've already indicated that I do not welcome some of the features of modern cars. Progress in terms of better performance, quietness, smoothness, economy, comfort, road holding, general safety etc. - all these things are welcome. What I don't like are some of the 'interlock' type features that might prevent the use of the heeling and toeing technique, for example.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
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