Straightening a bend
Discussion
henrycrun said:
waremark said:
softtop said:
GreenV8S said:
I pay road tax on both sides of the road, and I don't see any reason not to use the full width when it's legal and safe to do so.
and its ok with the passenger....
And it will not run the risk of causing concern or confusion to the driver of another vehicle.
or a walker, horserider, cyclist or biker
Can we just call them all road users and get on with it? With due regard to ALL of them, there are situations where is it safe to use both sides of the road, and no good reason not to.
SamHH said:
I brought up this topic again when I went out with my observer today. Initially she said the same thing as last time: you should stick to the outside of your lane when going round a bend and not attempt to 'straighten' it. I showed her the relevant section of Roadcraft. She seemed to be unfamiliar with this section and felt that it was instructing readers to compromise visibility in favour of reducing cornering forces (the diagram does make it look like this).
Your Observer is correct. You stay on the outside line (for a right hand bend).....until you can see the road opening up. This is for bends where you don't have vision of what's coming.
Your Observer is incorrect. You start on the outside line and sweep across to the centre line, thus straightening the bend. Note page 121 Roadcraft has no greenery along the bends (as opposed to the pictures on page 120) - you can see for a nice distance that the road is clear.
Roadcraft is wrong. If you have vision then you use as much of the road as you want, not being limited to the centre line. (Again see picture on page 121).
It's one of these, depending on what you can see.
SamHH said:
However, she accepted that 'straightening' a bend is part of Roadcraft and suggested that a compromise must be struck between doing this and gaining maximum visibility
As noted, the order here is supposed to be
Safety before
Information (vision) before
Reducing the cornering forces
So the compromise is if you don't have the vision, you don't do the straightening. (along with other things like misleading other road users etc.)
SamHH said:
Thank you Vaux. Nice explanation.
I plagiarize whenever I can.
Have a look at Vonhosen's picture (dated 6 August) - it's worth a thousand words:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=3&f=154&t=292017&h=0
Edited by Vaux on Thursday 21st December 17:49
Vaux said:
SamHH said:
I brought up this topic again when I went out with my observer today. Initially she said the same thing as last time: you should stick to the outside of your lane when going round a bend and not attempt to 'straighten' it. I showed her the relevant section of Roadcraft. She seemed to be unfamiliar with this section and felt that it was instructing readers to compromise visibility in favour of reducing cornering forces (the diagram does make it look like this).
Your Observer is correct. You stay on the outside line (for a right hand bend).....until you can see the road opening up. This is for bends where you don't have vision of what's coming.
Your Observer is incorrect. You start on the outside line and sweep across to the centre line, thus straightening the bend. Note page 121 Roadcraft has no greenery along the bends (as opposed to the pictures on page 120) - you can see for a nice distance that the road is clear.
Roadcraft is wrong. If you have vision then you use as much of the road as you want, not being limited to the centre line. (Again see picture on page 121).
It's one of these, depending on what you can see.
SamHH said:
However, she accepted that 'straightening' a bend is part of Roadcraft and suggested that a compromise must be struck between doing this and gaining maximum visibility
As noted, the order here is supposed to be
Safety before
Information (vision) before
Reducing the cornering forces
So the compromise is if you don't have the vision, you don't do the straightening. (along with other things like misleading other road users etc.)
Excellent ... well put, I'm just going to add ... a summary ...
Position, dependant on safety and law, so that you get the best visabilty you can.
This may, on occassion, be the exact opposite of what you might expect.
Martin
In my view the question is not one that can answered simply, as there are a number of factors which arent defined with the current data............
To try to simplify however...........
Yes, you should straighten out all corners, where it is both safe and legal to do so, thus affording a more comfortable ride, and lessening the forces acting on the vehicle, allowing for a more progressive ride to be obtained.
The paramount factors here are that it is both safe and legal, the safety part being the visibiltiy issue of course..........
So, where and when should one start to cut corners ?
Well in order to straighten out a right hand bend, this needs to be planned well in advance, and therefore the view would need to be obtained well in advance of the corner. The reason for this is simple, the correct positioning is as stated tucked into the nearside kerbline to obtain the maximum radius around the bend, to allow for both the greatest view, and speed around the corner ( crittical speed calculations substantiate this). So therefore if we have entered the corner when the view arrives, and we attempt to steer away from the kerb line we would be reducing the radius upon which we are travelling, lowering the maximum speed at which the corner is negotiable, and causing the vehilce to become more unstable by adding to the forces acting upon the vehicle, thus negating the advantages of trying to straighten out the bend in the first place...........
Therefore the instructor may of been right, or wrong - dependant upon the circumstances at the time......
But for the record, you pay your car tax - use the whole road, when 100% safe to do so.
To try to simplify however...........
Yes, you should straighten out all corners, where it is both safe and legal to do so, thus affording a more comfortable ride, and lessening the forces acting on the vehicle, allowing for a more progressive ride to be obtained.
The paramount factors here are that it is both safe and legal, the safety part being the visibiltiy issue of course..........
So, where and when should one start to cut corners ?
Well in order to straighten out a right hand bend, this needs to be planned well in advance, and therefore the view would need to be obtained well in advance of the corner. The reason for this is simple, the correct positioning is as stated tucked into the nearside kerbline to obtain the maximum radius around the bend, to allow for both the greatest view, and speed around the corner ( crittical speed calculations substantiate this). So therefore if we have entered the corner when the view arrives, and we attempt to steer away from the kerb line we would be reducing the radius upon which we are travelling, lowering the maximum speed at which the corner is negotiable, and causing the vehilce to become more unstable by adding to the forces acting upon the vehicle, thus negating the advantages of trying to straighten out the bend in the first place...........
Therefore the instructor may of been right, or wrong - dependant upon the circumstances at the time......
But for the record, you pay your car tax - use the whole road, when 100% safe to do so.
Just to jump in with my two pennys worth...
IMO the main reason for positioning wide on the approach to a left hand bend - or road position anywhere at any time - is to maximize your view of the road ahead, so you get the most advanced warning of hazards... As long as it's safe to do so, obviously.
Nothing wrong with popping over to the otherside of the road to get a better view to enable you to straighten the bend - thus reducing cornering forces on the car and maximizing straight line acceleration.
Obviously if it's a fast bend, there's high hedge rows and the risk of a car coming round the corner at the same speed as you then use your common sense and stay on your side of the road.
I'll repeat myself and say road positioning in this situation is all about the view ahead giving you the most time to deal with any potential hazards.
My aim was to puts things simply and concisely but it hasn't quite worked out like that. Sorry guys n gals...
IMO the main reason for positioning wide on the approach to a left hand bend - or road position anywhere at any time - is to maximize your view of the road ahead, so you get the most advanced warning of hazards... As long as it's safe to do so, obviously.
Nothing wrong with popping over to the otherside of the road to get a better view to enable you to straighten the bend - thus reducing cornering forces on the car and maximizing straight line acceleration.
Obviously if it's a fast bend, there's high hedge rows and the risk of a car coming round the corner at the same speed as you then use your common sense and stay on your side of the road.
I'll repeat myself and say road positioning in this situation is all about the view ahead giving you the most time to deal with any potential hazards.
My aim was to puts things simply and concisely but it hasn't quite worked out like that. Sorry guys n gals...
A couple of points that are worth considering...
Observations are so integral to positioning that they must form the basis for deciding whether repositioning is a safe and viable choice. This does not just mean what is ahead/over the hedge etc. Moving you vehicle towards the centre line. let alone over it, must be preceeded by a knowledge of what is too your right/approaching from behind - i.e. mirrors. The R1 that's just caught you may be next to you when you decide to take a "kinder line" through the corner/hazard. Just as important on track too, as you approach Flugplatz. Mirrors are everything. Most people I train have little regard for side observations. Remember it as Far, Middle, Near, Rear.
Could there be a junction that you have failed to observe that could produce a car turning where you don't expect one to be - remember you must be able to stop in the distance of uninterrupted road surface you can see to be clear - or twice that if you are "on the wrong side of the road". And people turning left into a road NEVER look left. Believe me.
When we do fleet training some establishments prescribe against use of the opposite side of road for reasons of potential litigation. What would be the consequence of a collision where your vehicle is positioned on the "wrong" side of the road?
We may aim to approach a corner in such a way that little if any input is required through the corner, but, really, if we feel that limits of adhesion may play a part in our ability to "take" the corner are we really driving in an appropriate way for the public road? Where observations are excellent then use the road width to aid grip/balance especially if there's a chance of ice etc. I want to see that on a drive.
You can't "apex" a corner if you can't see the exit. The scenario I usually present on sessions is the dad (maybe you?)and son on their bikes just around your "favourite" corner with the high hedges. Son's just hit a bump and fallen off, just after the apex. Remember Sod's Law? If you're on the edge of grip and observation how important is that exit Vmax then? Remember they didn't sign the "motorsports is dangerous" disclaimer before jumping on their bikes. Nor attend the briefing. Silly sods...
Roads are for the public remember - hardly anyone's more than 30 minutes from a track. I'm not a killjoy by any means and I'm on track every month. But I sit next to people every day that have an unerring faith in lady luck. Trouble is, she's on holiday sometimes.
Observations are so integral to positioning that they must form the basis for deciding whether repositioning is a safe and viable choice. This does not just mean what is ahead/over the hedge etc. Moving you vehicle towards the centre line. let alone over it, must be preceeded by a knowledge of what is too your right/approaching from behind - i.e. mirrors. The R1 that's just caught you may be next to you when you decide to take a "kinder line" through the corner/hazard. Just as important on track too, as you approach Flugplatz. Mirrors are everything. Most people I train have little regard for side observations. Remember it as Far, Middle, Near, Rear.
Could there be a junction that you have failed to observe that could produce a car turning where you don't expect one to be - remember you must be able to stop in the distance of uninterrupted road surface you can see to be clear - or twice that if you are "on the wrong side of the road". And people turning left into a road NEVER look left. Believe me.
When we do fleet training some establishments prescribe against use of the opposite side of road for reasons of potential litigation. What would be the consequence of a collision where your vehicle is positioned on the "wrong" side of the road?
We may aim to approach a corner in such a way that little if any input is required through the corner, but, really, if we feel that limits of adhesion may play a part in our ability to "take" the corner are we really driving in an appropriate way for the public road? Where observations are excellent then use the road width to aid grip/balance especially if there's a chance of ice etc. I want to see that on a drive.
You can't "apex" a corner if you can't see the exit. The scenario I usually present on sessions is the dad (maybe you?)and son on their bikes just around your "favourite" corner with the high hedges. Son's just hit a bump and fallen off, just after the apex. Remember Sod's Law? If you're on the edge of grip and observation how important is that exit Vmax then? Remember they didn't sign the "motorsports is dangerous" disclaimer before jumping on their bikes. Nor attend the briefing. Silly sods...
Roads are for the public remember - hardly anyone's more than 30 minutes from a track. I'm not a killjoy by any means and I'm on track every month. But I sit next to people every day that have an unerring faith in lady luck. Trouble is, she's on holiday sometimes.
Edited by instructormike on Tuesday 9th January 22:57
Edited by instructormike on Tuesday 9th January 22:58
instructormike said:
Could there be a junction that you have failed to observe that could produce a car turning where you don't expect one to be - remember you must be able to stop in the distance of uninterrupted road surface you can see to be clear - or twice that ...
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Did you mean half that ???
Quite!
I used to work with a guy who raced Senna in the old days; a real racer on the road who took lines everywhere. He recounted a story to me of his worst scare on the road - and showed me the corner. Positioning on the "wrong" side of the road for the line he met a car coming the opposite way doing the same, and they passed on the wrong side of each other. I don't know how apocryphal the tale was but he wasn't one for talking bull.
Reading the books and watching good practice are two very different things. Taking a line through a bend may well be different seven times in seven days, depending on traffic, weather, surface conditions, you and your car, passengers, animals...... If you can find a good exponent/instructor of quality driving and get them to drive you for a period and watch this is of very great value. Never turn down an opportunity to sit with someone over a bit of road or track. Every addition to your driving exposure is of so much value. Don't just sit and be impressed. Watch, listen and ask. I knew everything there was to know 10 years ago but now know I didn't know that much.
What I now know is that you can always learn more.
MC
I used to work with a guy who raced Senna in the old days; a real racer on the road who took lines everywhere. He recounted a story to me of his worst scare on the road - and showed me the corner. Positioning on the "wrong" side of the road for the line he met a car coming the opposite way doing the same, and they passed on the wrong side of each other. I don't know how apocryphal the tale was but he wasn't one for talking bull.
Reading the books and watching good practice are two very different things. Taking a line through a bend may well be different seven times in seven days, depending on traffic, weather, surface conditions, you and your car, passengers, animals...... If you can find a good exponent/instructor of quality driving and get them to drive you for a period and watch this is of very great value. Never turn down an opportunity to sit with someone over a bit of road or track. Every addition to your driving exposure is of so much value. Don't just sit and be impressed. Watch, listen and ask. I knew everything there was to know 10 years ago but now know I didn't know that much.
What I now know is that you can always learn more.
MC
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