Skid Pans in Herts?
Discussion
henrycrun said:
Are there any skid pans in Hertfordshire ? I would like my recently licensed son to appreciate what zero grip feels like before he has his first winter car/ditch interface!
Not necessarily Herts, but some to choose from
www.advanced-driving.co.uk/skid-pan-training/
VH's list includes ATC driver training who use a cradle car on North Weald airfield just East of Harlow, and hence just outside Hertfordshire. I took my son recently and can recommend them. However, I do not personally consider that an hour on a skid pan does much for driver safety - I would consider it more suitable as a reward for taking a Roadcraft style course to keep you away from the limits of grip!
waremark said:
However, I do not personally consider that an hour on a skid pan does much for driver safety
It will come as no surprise to many that I will disagree.
I had a fairly major sideways moment on a French autoroute when a sudden downpour (never seen rain like it in my life, even in Africa!) caught me as I was reaching to disengage the cruise control. I am quite certain that the techniques I learned and the confidence I gained in handling sliding cars on my occasional trips to the skidpan saved my life.
With all due respect to Waremark, I could not disagree more vehemently with his comment above!
I do not understand how a driving test qualification of any worth, let alone for those who are keen on their driving, could be without gained WITHOUT a session on a skidpan. Lives would be saved, and I’m sorry to read particularly on Pistonheads, anyone justifying doing without in any way shape or form.
Make no mistake, if the first time you lock up your brakes on a wet day and don’t know what to do next, not know how it feels when someone does something stupid in front of you, then you are in the wrong. You have not educated yourself in an important basic skill.
We live with overcrowded, (too) fast moving and ignorantly driven roads and drivers; ANYTHING you can to increase safe handling experiences would be much more realistic than any ‘ideal world’ theoretic exercise.
And when it comes to any sort of sporting inclination of either car or driver, then car & skid control become not only a rudimentary part of the game, like playing the piano, practice will make perfect, give you confidence and fun.
Do not let anyone else suggest otherwise!
… off my soapbox.
I do not understand how a driving test qualification of any worth, let alone for those who are keen on their driving, could be without gained WITHOUT a session on a skidpan. Lives would be saved, and I’m sorry to read particularly on Pistonheads, anyone justifying doing without in any way shape or form.
Make no mistake, if the first time you lock up your brakes on a wet day and don’t know what to do next, not know how it feels when someone does something stupid in front of you, then you are in the wrong. You have not educated yourself in an important basic skill.
We live with overcrowded, (too) fast moving and ignorantly driven roads and drivers; ANYTHING you can to increase safe handling experiences would be much more realistic than any ‘ideal world’ theoretic exercise.
And when it comes to any sort of sporting inclination of either car or driver, then car & skid control become not only a rudimentary part of the game, like playing the piano, practice will make perfect, give you confidence and fun.
Do not let anyone else suggest otherwise!
… off my soapbox.
ph123 said:
With all due respect to Waremark, I could not disagree more vehemently with his comment above!
I do not understand how a driving test qualification of any worth, let alone for those who are keen on their driving, could be without gained WITHOUT a session on a skidpan. Lives would be saved, and I’m sorry to read particularly on Pistonheads, anyone justifying doing without in any way shape or form.
Make no mistake, if the first time you lock up your brakes on a wet day and don’t know what to do next, not know how it feels when someone does something stupid in front of you, then you are in the wrong. You have not educated yourself in an important basic skill.
We live with overcrowded, (too) fast moving and ignorantly driven roads and drivers; ANYTHING you can to increase safe handling experiences would be much more realistic than any ‘ideal world’ theoretic exercise.
And when it comes to any sort of sporting inclination of either car or driver, then car & skid control become not only a rudimentary part of the game, like playing the piano, practice will make perfect, give you confidence and fun.
Do not let anyone else suggest otherwise!
… off my soapbox.
I do not understand how a driving test qualification of any worth, let alone for those who are keen on their driving, could be without gained WITHOUT a session on a skidpan. Lives would be saved, and I’m sorry to read particularly on Pistonheads, anyone justifying doing without in any way shape or form.
Make no mistake, if the first time you lock up your brakes on a wet day and don’t know what to do next, not know how it feels when someone does something stupid in front of you, then you are in the wrong. You have not educated yourself in an important basic skill.
We live with overcrowded, (too) fast moving and ignorantly driven roads and drivers; ANYTHING you can to increase safe handling experiences would be much more realistic than any ‘ideal world’ theoretic exercise.
And when it comes to any sort of sporting inclination of either car or driver, then car & skid control become not only a rudimentary part of the game, like playing the piano, practice will make perfect, give you confidence and fun.
Do not let anyone else suggest otherwise!
… off my soapbox.
I know exactly where he is coming from though.
Skid pans do have a value, but it's a very limited one.
Limit handling courses in other conditions will offer far more value (if that's what you are after) IMHO.
Prevention will always be better than cure as far as skids are concerned.
Sorry & with respect, strongly disagree.
Real world problems come to drivers forced to rescue a situation which takes them over the limit of adhesion, most of the time because there’re going too fast, I grant. Skid pans do this the easiest.
I perfectly accept that good roadcraft courses are an excellent idea; but when your guard is dropped and safety threatened the most, it’s just before a (big) accident. We’ve all been there and many is the time it’s not our fault. You need to throw a car about, know how it feels and understand why you are skidding; and know what you can do about it, know how abs and all that stuff works.
The first time many drivers lock up, is when they are trying to save someone’s life. Let’s not pretend otherwise. Modern traffic conditions don’t allow this mimsying IAM-theorizing creeping about getting in the way and upsetting of traffic flow, fouling everyone else’s temper. Better off, safer staying in bed.
In the real world, you will be going too quickly, too close and not concentrating (cos we’re men, by enlarge, and someone will squeak in in front of you). You need to uprate your performance behind the wheel, just understand a little of how to deal with a loss of control. This is the best value bang for your buck no question.
IMVHO.
Real world problems come to drivers forced to rescue a situation which takes them over the limit of adhesion, most of the time because there’re going too fast, I grant. Skid pans do this the easiest.
I perfectly accept that good roadcraft courses are an excellent idea; but when your guard is dropped and safety threatened the most, it’s just before a (big) accident. We’ve all been there and many is the time it’s not our fault. You need to throw a car about, know how it feels and understand why you are skidding; and know what you can do about it, know how abs and all that stuff works.
The first time many drivers lock up, is when they are trying to save someone’s life. Let’s not pretend otherwise. Modern traffic conditions don’t allow this mimsying IAM-theorizing creeping about getting in the way and upsetting of traffic flow, fouling everyone else’s temper. Better off, safer staying in bed.
In the real world, you will be going too quickly, too close and not concentrating (cos we’re men, by enlarge, and someone will squeak in in front of you). You need to uprate your performance behind the wheel, just understand a little of how to deal with a loss of control. This is the best value bang for your buck no question.
IMVHO.
ph123 said:
Sorry & with respect, strongly disagree.
Real world problems come to drivers forced to rescue a situation which takes them over the limit of adhesion, most of the time because there’re going too fast, I grant. Skid pans do this the easiest.
I perfectly accept that good roadcraft courses are an excellent idea; but when your guard is dropped and safety threatened the most, it’s just before a (big) accident. We’ve all been there and many is the time it’s not our fault. You need to throw a car about, know how it feels and understand why you are skidding; and know what you can do about it, know how abs and all that stuff works.
The first time many drivers lock up, is when they are trying to save someone’s life. Let’s not pretend otherwise. Modern traffic conditions don’t allow this mimsying IAM-theorizing creeping about getting in the way and upsetting of traffic flow, fouling everyone else’s temper. Better off, safer staying in bed.
In the real world, you will be going too quickly, too close and not concentrating (cos we’re men, by enlarge, and someone will squeak in in front of you). You need to uprate your performance behind the wheel, just understand a little of how to deal with a loss of control. This is the best value bang for your buck no question.
IMVHO.
Real world problems come to drivers forced to rescue a situation which takes them over the limit of adhesion, most of the time because there’re going too fast, I grant. Skid pans do this the easiest.
I perfectly accept that good roadcraft courses are an excellent idea; but when your guard is dropped and safety threatened the most, it’s just before a (big) accident. We’ve all been there and many is the time it’s not our fault. You need to throw a car about, know how it feels and understand why you are skidding; and know what you can do about it, know how abs and all that stuff works.
The first time many drivers lock up, is when they are trying to save someone’s life. Let’s not pretend otherwise. Modern traffic conditions don’t allow this mimsying IAM-theorizing creeping about getting in the way and upsetting of traffic flow, fouling everyone else’s temper. Better off, safer staying in bed.
In the real world, you will be going too quickly, too close and not concentrating (cos we’re men, by enlarge, and someone will squeak in in front of you). You need to uprate your performance behind the wheel, just understand a little of how to deal with a loss of control. This is the best value bang for your buck no question.
IMVHO.
And exactly how does traveling in a circle at about 5-10mph on a mixture of oil & water, with overinflated slicks relate to real world driving ?
It lets you experience a little understeer,oversteer, cadence braking etc in totally exceptional circumstances at very very slow speeds. Not very real world when you think of the speeds people will generally be getting themselves into trouble with.
Now if you do a limit handling course on an airfield at decent speeds, you can see exactly how much you have to take the michael on a decent surface to get it horribly out of shape, how to get it back & how much room you are going to need to do it in real world.
I'm not saying it can't be a bit of fun floating the car all the way around the skidpan with it's rear end hanging out, just that there are more realistic & beneficial things to do to improve your driving.
Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 3rd January 19:15
I with VH on this one. Skid pans have their place in learning principles. But you cannot take anything you do on one as being truly relevant to the real world unless you habitually drive on refrozen ice with summer tyres!
It is a totally different matter getting sideways on a skid pan in the utter slippiness and getting sideways at 100mph plus on dry tarmac. The speed at which things happen is totally different. People can rarely believe the speed with which opposite lock needs to be removed - I know I didn't! (Whooops!)
It is a totally different matter getting sideways on a skid pan in the utter slippiness and getting sideways at 100mph plus on dry tarmac. The speed at which things happen is totally different. People can rarely believe the speed with which opposite lock needs to be removed - I know I didn't! (Whooops!)
vonhosen said:
Now if you do a limit handling course on an airfield at decent speeds, you can see exactly how much you have to take the michael on a decent surface to get it horribly out of shape, how to get it back & how much room you are going to need to do it in real world.
Sure. And the police and safety partnerships are promoting this and subsidising it with the money made from scameras, aren't they? I got my invitation just the other day...
spokey said:
vonhosen said:
Now if you do a limit handling course on an airfield at decent speeds, you can see exactly how much you have to take the michael on a decent surface to get it horribly out of shape, how to get it back & how much room you are going to need to do it in real world.
Sure. And the police and safety partnerships are promoting this and subsidising it with the money made from scameras, aren't they? I got my invitation just the other day...
They are not likely to nor should they, because again of the real world value. (Even though in a lot of cases I consider it is skid control that is more relevant to real roads)
I still think if money is going to be spent on education it should be spent on attitude & everyday road skills before limit handling.
There is an argument that actually training people in extreme limit handling can over inflate their confidence levels & you would need increased monitoring post course.
Some will argue that it's better for drivers to be rubbish & know they are, rather than encouraging them to think they are better than they are.
A little knowledge can sometimes be a dangerous thing.
Like I say if money is going to be spent on eductaion, it should be to encourage people not to drive at extremes on public roads, not at them. If they want luxury items like extreme limit handling they can pay for it out of their pockets.
Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 3rd January 21:36
vonhosen said:
There is an argument that actually training people in extreme limit handling can over inflate their confidence levels & you would need increased monitoring post course.
Some will argue that it's better for drivers to be rubbish & know they are, rather than encouraging them to think they are better than they are.
A little knowledge can sometimes be a dangerous thing.
Funny that, because I'm obviously the archetypal speed-freak libertarian. I did my first skid pan training when I was quite young. I was convinced I was a better than average driver. I loved driving fast. No different from most young blokes, I reckon.
When I saw how easy it was to lose control at ridiculously low speeds by driving poorly, I immediately started slowing down when it rained because I'd seen for myself how easy it was to lose control of a car in the wet.
I paid for that lesson out of my own pocket. That lesson, that little bit of knowledge directly saved my life once and has, in general, contributed a lot more to my respect for the business of driving than any pompous ass pontificating about my attitude.
But, that is just my actual personal experience, obviously young blokes today respond better to hectoring and condescension than to a practical experience of real danger.
Not all skid pans and or skid training providers are the same. A car in a cradle will respond very quickly to uncorrected oversteer, and most cradle cars will go faster and have more space than the wet/oil variety so a wide variety of senarios are possible. Consider the number of single vehicle accidents alone that are a result of loss of control ably assisted by the driver making all the wrong responses. All of which would be picked up with a skid control session. As an instructor, I have sat next to hundreds of drivers doing skid control coursesor rally experiences, and by far the largest majority (could be 80% at least), make basic, and potentially life threatening errors when first presented with just a simple understeer situation. Coping with skids is not a natural response for the average driver, their intervention is usually wrong and, then makes the situation worse. This alone is sufficient justification for the experience.
Did not realise I would be putting the cat among the pigeons to such an extent. I concur with most of what VH has said since. Thank you VH for saying it for me. I strongly disagree with PH123's negative comments about what I would probably consider to be good driving.
I am not against limit handling training. I just caution against thinking that a single typical one hour session on a skid pan will do much to help a driver react correctly in an emergency - whereas an IAM course will do an enormous amount to help them avoid an emergency.
As a point of detail, I am concerned that such courses tend to be very weak on modern technology. When I sat in on a cradle car session for my wife and son recently the trainer did not highlight the critical differences between the cradle car used which did not have ABS let alone ESP and the cars they would be likely to drive on the road.
I am not against limit handling training. I just caution against thinking that a single typical one hour session on a skid pan will do much to help a driver react correctly in an emergency - whereas an IAM course will do an enormous amount to help them avoid an emergency.
As a point of detail, I am concerned that such courses tend to be very weak on modern technology. When I sat in on a cradle car session for my wife and son recently the trainer did not highlight the critical differences between the cradle car used which did not have ABS let alone ESP and the cars they would be likely to drive on the road.
waremark said:
Did not realise I would be putting the cat among the pigeons to such an extent. I concur with most of what VH has said since. Thank you VH for saying it for me. I strongly disagree with PH123's negative comments about what I would probably consider to be good driving.
I am not against limit handling training. I just caution against thinking that a single typical one hour session on a skid pan will do much to help a driver react correctly in an emergency - whereas an IAM course will do an enormous amount to help them avoid an emergency.
As a point of detail, I am concerned that such courses tend to be very weak on modern technology. When I sat in on a cradle car session for my wife and son recently the trainer did not highlight the critical differences between the cradle car used which did not have ABS let alone ESP and the cars they would be likely to drive on the road.
I am not against limit handling training. I just caution against thinking that a single typical one hour session on a skid pan will do much to help a driver react correctly in an emergency - whereas an IAM course will do an enormous amount to help them avoid an emergency.
As a point of detail, I am concerned that such courses tend to be very weak on modern technology. When I sat in on a cradle car session for my wife and son recently the trainer did not highlight the critical differences between the cradle car used which did not have ABS let alone ESP and the cars they would be likely to drive on the road.
The quality of the intsruction will be important. It can be very misleading & confusing to drivers if not properly led. If they are not aware about traction control, ABS, DSC etc & what functions they serve, they are not aware of the different responses they will get with regard to their inputs. A short poorly instructed session can leave them worse off than when they started, whilst at the same time leave them assuming their ability to drive at the limit is now enhanced. You get on the oil & water skid pan in say a modern BMW with the DSC activated, floor it & you'll end up driving serenely around the pan with the DSC overriding your oafish throttle inputs. However approach the pan way too fast, going from a good surface to a really poor one whilst asking physically impossible things of the car & DSC or not, you've had it.
I do some limit handling course input & a common error with drivers, is that where they perform an emergency braking manoeuvre in a restricted space & then have to steer during it in a car equipped with ABS, their reaction is to come off the brakes unnecessarily when they steer during it. Why ?
Because they do what they were told to do on a really slippery skidpan in a car that wasn't equipped with ABS & bore no relevance to the situation they are in (a much more likely real world situation I might add than the skidpan), but they've made it harder to control the vehicle not easier.
Edited by vonhosen on Friday 5th January 07:23
I apologise if you guys felt I was over aggressive with my reaction to your posts. I’m sure we are actually on the same side of the argument, so it must be a question of priorities.
But what I see here is a someone asking what they can do to make sure their new driver son gets a chance to get the feel of how a car performs in seriously bad road conditions. This seems to me like a pretty regular intelligent thing to enquire about, and something I’d personally would welcome for every new driver that goes on the road.
For an investment of an affordable amount, and consuming just an couple of hours (one hour + getting there and back) of people’s time they get the benefit of all that extolled above.
No doubt you guys come along and want to sell the idea, quite correctly, of doing a ‘proper job’ and taking a full advanced driving course. But it appears that you then continue to ‘qualify out’ anything else. If it’s not a multi hour course, spread over sometime and costing not an insignificant sum, you experts suggest even that a skid pan session would do you harm.
And that’s quite wrong in my view.
No doubt you see it as modern world/dumbing down the whole question of driver training; but I don’t think it is.
The original posters position is one that I’m sure a lot of people find themselves in. That is, I want a simple quick reminder of how simple it is to carelessly get into losing control of your car. One hour and £80 is what commitment I’d give it, no more.
And you experts come along and say – limited value, waste of time.
Not only that, I’d suggest you’re cutting your nose off to spite your face. If you captured a few more interested individuals with a quick, fun intro to proper car control, how many more would say, hey this is good, lets do full course. Quite a few more than do now I suspect.
But what I see here is a someone asking what they can do to make sure their new driver son gets a chance to get the feel of how a car performs in seriously bad road conditions. This seems to me like a pretty regular intelligent thing to enquire about, and something I’d personally would welcome for every new driver that goes on the road.
For an investment of an affordable amount, and consuming just an couple of hours (one hour + getting there and back) of people’s time they get the benefit of all that extolled above.
No doubt you guys come along and want to sell the idea, quite correctly, of doing a ‘proper job’ and taking a full advanced driving course. But it appears that you then continue to ‘qualify out’ anything else. If it’s not a multi hour course, spread over sometime and costing not an insignificant sum, you experts suggest even that a skid pan session would do you harm.
And that’s quite wrong in my view.
No doubt you see it as modern world/dumbing down the whole question of driver training; but I don’t think it is.
The original posters position is one that I’m sure a lot of people find themselves in. That is, I want a simple quick reminder of how simple it is to carelessly get into losing control of your car. One hour and £80 is what commitment I’d give it, no more.
And you experts come along and say – limited value, waste of time.
Not only that, I’d suggest you’re cutting your nose off to spite your face. If you captured a few more interested individuals with a quick, fun intro to proper car control, how many more would say, hey this is good, lets do full course. Quite a few more than do now I suspect.
Edited by ph123 on Friday 5th January 13:36
ph123 said:
No doubt you guys come along and want to sell the idea, quite correctly, of doing a ‘proper job’ and taking a full advanced driving course. But it appears that you then continue to ‘qualify out’ anything else. If it’s not a multi hour course, spread over sometime and costing not an insignificant sum, you experts suggest even that a skid pan session would do you harm.
And that’s quite wrong in my view.
And that’s quite wrong in my view.
First, I'm no expert.
IAM course costs max £85. For under 26 you can get around £65. RoSPA is even cheaper.
Cost of a hour on a skid pan around £80-100?
Your cost argument is not valid. If I had a son/daughter I'd want him/her to take a course lasting a few weeks to improve their overall driving - reducing their chances of getting into a skid in the first place, rather than going round in circles. Most IAM groups get subsidized skid pan trips anyway - I will admit experiencing cadence braking/ABS and steering around imaginary obstacles is informative.
Like most things, if you don't practice it you loose it. I would bet 99% of people who've been on a skid pan course will still loose it in the real world in correcting a skid.
IMVO, to a very limited extent, a session on a skid pan or in a skid cradle car, may be beneficial to some drivers. Unless that driver intends to spend considerable time (and money) practising a variety of techniques, I would agree with comments already made - it can give a false sense of security.
Skid pan/cradle/limit handling exercises have their place in the overall scheme of 'further training' but initially, the only benefits for an average driver will be that
· the driver experiences what it 'feels' like to have loss of control
· the driver has the opportunity to learn how to recognise the early warning signs of impending loss of control
· the driver may learn that it generally takes more time and space to correct the error than will be available in a real-life road situation
For the standard driver, a group half day (about 40 minutes of actual driving) will not be sufficient time to develop any muscle memory and an instinctive (and appropriate) reaction to each situation.
The majority of skid pan cars and cradle-mounted cars aren’t the latest models off the production line – many will have switchable ABS but it’s unlikely you’ll find the other electronic gizmos fitted, unless it’s for example, a manufacturer ‘demonstrator’. As “Waremark” has previously experienced on frozen lakes – you need to apply different procedures on high-spec cars. If you apply standard ‘skid training principles’, you end up fighting the very systems that have been fitted as ‘safety aids’.
Unless you train regularly and can hone your skills, the main benefit of a skid session is hopefully learning to recognise the potential for a loss of control – the difference in cabin noise for example as your engine revs rise and the steering goes lighter – or if you have a very sensitive inner ear, the feeling of instability and loss of balance.
Giving a new/younger driver the opportunity to experience what loss of control feels like is probably “a good thing” but as a means of skills building it’s of limited value. The OP’s question was [quote] I would like my recently licensed son to appreciate what zero grip feels like before he has his first winter car/ditch interface [/quote] It could be that he’s hoping a ‘shock treatment’ for his son in a safe, controlled environment will act as an incentive to not DLAP, particularly on wet/greasy bends where he’s likely to run out of control.
The critical part of “ph123’s” argument is that other people do unexpected things – at speed – which affect us and cause us to take emergency avoiding actions. By being imaginative in the way we interact with those around us – by creating more space and time in which to deal with other people’s errors and stupidity is far more effective than having to react late to other’s faults. Yes, of course having a ‘play’ on a skid pan for a couple of hours is fun but in the real world, there are plenty of people who have left the session thinking they’re now invincible. If the trainer is truly professional, he/she will balance the fun element with the real life facts. Behind the wheel of a car, we have a huge responsibility to ourselves – and those around us – to be in control.
I don’t think any of the ‘experts’ on PH “see driver training as modern world/dumbing down.” We certainly don’t take that approach. If someone is enjoying the experience, they’re far more inclined to absorb the information and techniques and work with their coach, striving to raise their game. Let’s leave dumbing down to the people who do it best – i.e. the politicians!
Sevener
Skid pan/cradle/limit handling exercises have their place in the overall scheme of 'further training' but initially, the only benefits for an average driver will be that
· the driver experiences what it 'feels' like to have loss of control
· the driver has the opportunity to learn how to recognise the early warning signs of impending loss of control
· the driver may learn that it generally takes more time and space to correct the error than will be available in a real-life road situation
For the standard driver, a group half day (about 40 minutes of actual driving) will not be sufficient time to develop any muscle memory and an instinctive (and appropriate) reaction to each situation.
The majority of skid pan cars and cradle-mounted cars aren’t the latest models off the production line – many will have switchable ABS but it’s unlikely you’ll find the other electronic gizmos fitted, unless it’s for example, a manufacturer ‘demonstrator’. As “Waremark” has previously experienced on frozen lakes – you need to apply different procedures on high-spec cars. If you apply standard ‘skid training principles’, you end up fighting the very systems that have been fitted as ‘safety aids’.
Unless you train regularly and can hone your skills, the main benefit of a skid session is hopefully learning to recognise the potential for a loss of control – the difference in cabin noise for example as your engine revs rise and the steering goes lighter – or if you have a very sensitive inner ear, the feeling of instability and loss of balance.
Giving a new/younger driver the opportunity to experience what loss of control feels like is probably “a good thing” but as a means of skills building it’s of limited value. The OP’s question was [quote] I would like my recently licensed son to appreciate what zero grip feels like before he has his first winter car/ditch interface [/quote] It could be that he’s hoping a ‘shock treatment’ for his son in a safe, controlled environment will act as an incentive to not DLAP, particularly on wet/greasy bends where he’s likely to run out of control.
The critical part of “ph123’s” argument is that other people do unexpected things – at speed – which affect us and cause us to take emergency avoiding actions. By being imaginative in the way we interact with those around us – by creating more space and time in which to deal with other people’s errors and stupidity is far more effective than having to react late to other’s faults. Yes, of course having a ‘play’ on a skid pan for a couple of hours is fun but in the real world, there are plenty of people who have left the session thinking they’re now invincible. If the trainer is truly professional, he/she will balance the fun element with the real life facts. Behind the wheel of a car, we have a huge responsibility to ourselves – and those around us – to be in control.
I don’t think any of the ‘experts’ on PH “see driver training as modern world/dumbing down.” We certainly don’t take that approach. If someone is enjoying the experience, they’re far more inclined to absorb the information and techniques and work with their coach, striving to raise their game. Let’s leave dumbing down to the people who do it best – i.e. the politicians!
Sevener
Edited by sevener on Friday 5th January 12:39
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