Skid Pans in Herts?
Discussion
45 minutes spent observing somebody who can drive inspirationally well, in an interesting car, to include a brief commentary highlighting the skills of observation and anticipation.
10 minutes spent having a coffee and a chat, covering the importance of attitude and appropriate training.
The remaining 5 spent writing the cheque for a course of training and organising the diary.
WilliBetz
10 minutes spent having a coffee and a chat, covering the importance of attitude and appropriate training.
The remaining 5 spent writing the cheque for a course of training and organising the diary.
WilliBetz
Edited by willibetz on Friday 5th January 13:57
willibetz said:
45 minutes spent observing somebody who can drive inspirationally well, in an interesting car, to include a brief commentary highlighting the skills of observation and anticipation.
10 minutes spent having a coffee and a chat, covering the importance of attitude and appropriate training.
The remaining 5 spent writing the cheque for a course of training and organising the diary.
WilliBetz
10 minutes spent having a coffee and a chat, covering the importance of attitude and appropriate training.
The remaining 5 spent writing the cheque for a course of training and organising the diary.
WilliBetz
With a budget for the gift of £80 & only one hour, I'd go along with that.
spokey said:
willibetz said:
45 minutes spent observing somebody who can drive inspirationally well, in an interesting car, to include a brief commentary highlighting the skills of observation and anticipation.
Yeah, I know someone like that.
What happens if you don't?
Ask local IAM/RoADAR group for a demo drive by a senior Observer.
Go on an AD-UK driving day. (Longer than an hour, but let's be realistic).
Very good discussion on this thread, and in particular a great post from Sevener, thanks.
WB's plan to use the hour is clever - I might well be taking you up on your hour (or even a little bit more?) some time in the next few months Willi. But what if it really is going to be only an hour? Could you do something worthwhile in a classroom in an hour covering attitude, risk, and a couple of key actions to reduce risk (eg 2 second rule, position away from hazards, tips for raising concentration)? A few months ago I attended a very professional defensive driving workshop which took about three hours, but certainly seemed worthwhile to me. Such training should be part of the compulsory renewal process all drivers have to undertake every few years!
WB's plan to use the hour is clever - I might well be taking you up on your hour (or even a little bit more?) some time in the next few months Willi. But what if it really is going to be only an hour? Could you do something worthwhile in a classroom in an hour covering attitude, risk, and a couple of key actions to reduce risk (eg 2 second rule, position away from hazards, tips for raising concentration)? A few months ago I attended a very professional defensive driving workshop which took about three hours, but certainly seemed worthwhile to me. Such training should be part of the compulsory renewal process all drivers have to undertake every few years!
As you may have anticipated guys, I'm struggling with this.
You have a reasonably disinterested candidate here (1 hour: father buys for offspring)
and are offering him/her a session in a classroom, and/or a session sitting next to some one who talks through a drive up the road which is incident free, who knows it all? And if the candidate does get into the driving seat, does every last ding dong detail wrong, from incorrectyly gripping the gear lever to stumbling around in an unknown traffic island unobservantly.
Or
loose control, spin like a top at 15 mph, splash about like duck bambi on ice, but get the helpless feel of control lost, basics on how, and then basics on alternatives to avoid or retrieve the situation, get an idea of the feel of a car sliding, and that it’s not the end of the world.
Class room vs. theatre? Impact? It's a no brainer.
Sorry, I didn’t write clearly enough for Sevener. My comment re dumbing down was with reference to a skid pan session (excitement) being a bit modern world/soundbite ridden ‘dumb’ compared to how comprehensive driver training should be regarded.
You have a reasonably disinterested candidate here (1 hour: father buys for offspring)
and are offering him/her a session in a classroom, and/or a session sitting next to some one who talks through a drive up the road which is incident free, who knows it all? And if the candidate does get into the driving seat, does every last ding dong detail wrong, from incorrectyly gripping the gear lever to stumbling around in an unknown traffic island unobservantly.
Or
loose control, spin like a top at 15 mph, splash about like duck bambi on ice, but get the helpless feel of control lost, basics on how, and then basics on alternatives to avoid or retrieve the situation, get an idea of the feel of a car sliding, and that it’s not the end of the world.
Class room vs. theatre? Impact? It's a no brainer.
Sorry, I didn’t write clearly enough for Sevener. My comment re dumbing down was with reference to a skid pan session (excitement) being a bit modern world/soundbite ridden ‘dumb’ compared to how comprehensive driver training should be regarded.
Vaux said:
Ask local IAM/RoADAR group for a demo drive by a senior Observer.
Go on an AD-UK driving day. (Longer than an hour, but let's be realistic).
Can I just say something here? I've spoken to about a dozen IAM people about the IAM and learning about it, and they really are the most condescending tits I've ever met. I lie, one of them was great. The others all left me wanting to punch them within 10 minutes. Unfortunately, they all seem to feel the fact that they are qualified as better drivers gives them the right to talk down to us lesser mortals. It doesn't bode well for their ability to change their own attitude in other aspects of their life.
And I WANTED to find out more. If you really think that sticking a newly-keen teenager driver in a car with a holier-than-thou preacher giving it large sanctimony for an hour will do ANYTHING positive, I respectfully submit that you are incredibly misguided.
I feel that I am a good driver. Not because I can take bends and turns on public roads at stupidly high speeds, not becuase I can get the best 0-60 speeds out of any car, not because I can over take, outmanouver and out run any one on the road, I can't and don't really want to do any of these. I think I'm a good driver because I'm willing to accept that there is a lot I can do to improve on my current ability as a driver, this thread has helped me see what some of the better methods for improvement are.
I know a driving instructor so I'll start with finding out about options in my local area.
Incidently, I have witnessed a few Road Traffic Incidents in my time, and I can recall a day when I saw somewhere between 10-20 incidents at speeds of less than 20mph where drivers just didn't know what to do after a sudden snow storm. It took me from 8:30pm till 3am to drive an 11 mile journey, due to the slow speed of all the traffic and I witnessed drivers who were wheelspinning when starting from a standstill and were then applying more gas in the hope that this would give them more traction, instead of starting in a higher gear. The accidents of course were caused by the drivers who eventually got the traction they wanted, only to find themselves coming off the gas and onto the brakes and then drifting straight on to what ever lay in front of the them, or fishtailing around into what ever was besides them. Bearing this in mind and with winter upon us, I think a session in a skid pan might be worthwhile.
Ultimately I think an IAM course is the best idea.
And then for fun having a go at limits handling. After that, who knows, maybe I'll look at a racing drivers licence.
I know a driving instructor so I'll start with finding out about options in my local area.
Incidently, I have witnessed a few Road Traffic Incidents in my time, and I can recall a day when I saw somewhere between 10-20 incidents at speeds of less than 20mph where drivers just didn't know what to do after a sudden snow storm. It took me from 8:30pm till 3am to drive an 11 mile journey, due to the slow speed of all the traffic and I witnessed drivers who were wheelspinning when starting from a standstill and were then applying more gas in the hope that this would give them more traction, instead of starting in a higher gear. The accidents of course were caused by the drivers who eventually got the traction they wanted, only to find themselves coming off the gas and onto the brakes and then drifting straight on to what ever lay in front of the them, or fishtailing around into what ever was besides them. Bearing this in mind and with winter upon us, I think a session in a skid pan might be worthwhile.
Ultimately I think an IAM course is the best idea.
And then for fun having a go at limits handling. After that, who knows, maybe I'll look at a racing drivers licence.
ph123 said:
und in an unknown traffic island unobservantly.
Or
loose control, spin like a top at 15 mph, splash about like duck bambi on ice, but get the helpless feel of control lost, basics on how, and then basics on alternatives to avoid or retrieve the situation, get an idea of the feel of a car sliding, and that it’s not the end of the world.
Class room vs. theatre? Impact? It's a no brainer.
Or
loose control, spin like a top at 15 mph, splash about like duck bambi on ice, but get the helpless feel of control lost, basics on how, and then basics on alternatives to avoid or retrieve the situation, get an idea of the feel of a car sliding, and that it’s not the end of the world.
Class room vs. theatre? Impact? It's a no brainer.
Theatre? Yes, it's fun, my son had a great time. But 'Get the idea that sliding is not the end of the world' - well that's where you worry me. For most folk, a one hour introduction to sliding at low speed and in an open area is not enough to give you a good chance of recovering an unexpected slide at higher speed and within the confines of the road. If it makes the new driver happy to get closer to the limit on the road, it has done more harm than good. So consider the short skid course taken in isolation primarily as entertainment rather than road safety training.
How do you persuade young enthusiasts to put time and effort into driving better? Well, perhaps WilliB was suggesting that a ride in a GT3 would be sufficiently appealing to get an enthusiast to listen to its driver. If they did they might appreciate that safety and smoothness can be combined with gusto - but that there is an enormous amount to learn. A pity that not many IAM Observers have GT3's! And yes, many of us are BOF's, but that doesn't mean we have nothing useful to teach.
What do you suggest?
waremark said:
If it makes the new driver happy to get closer to the limit on the road, it has done more harm than good.
Assume the best, why don't you? I was an archetypal "better than average driver" and my first stint on a skidpan scared the crap out of me. It made me a much more careful driver in the wet. Why do you assume that it will make a person a worse driver? Because it's not under the auspices of the IAM?
spokey said:
Why do you assume that it will make a person a worse driver? Because it's not under the auspices of the IAM?
I don't assume that. I thought I was just responding to your suggestion that folk would 'Get the idea that sliding is not the end of the world'.
Spokey, I am not against limit handling training. And I am delighted that your first experience encouraged you to take more care on slippery surfaces. I just fear that that would not be the case for everyone, and that the level of knowledge acquired in a first session would not generally be enough to get you out of difficulties.
Don't know where you are coming from in your aside about the IAM - if you ask me where to go for the best limit handling training I would be suggesting people like Don Palmer, Andy Walsh, or Cadence as part of a Master Driver course - but sadly going to these guys is pretty pricey, particularly when you consider the cost of your tyres. I recommend IAM or Rospa for road driver training at a genuinely give-away price - because the likes of me deliver it for free purely for the satisfaction and the contribution to road safety.
Edited by waremark on Sunday 7th January 15:32
ph123 said:
As you may have anticipated guys, I'm struggling with this.
You have a reasonably disinterested candidate here (1 hour: father buys for offspring)
and are offering him/her a session in a classroom, and/or a session sitting next to some one who talks through a drive up the road which is incident free, who knows it all?
You have a reasonably disinterested candidate here (1 hour: father buys for offspring)
and are offering him/her a session in a classroom, and/or a session sitting next to some one who talks through a drive up the road which is incident free, who knows it all?
It is challenging - one hour is not a long time - but you set the original parameters, and augmented them here.
On reflection, I still think one hour might be enough. Enough time to engage with and allow a disinterested candidate to reflect on the gap between where their driving ability is, and where it could be. To help move them from unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence, and to leave them a memory of what unconscious competence looks like. There's little for the disinterested candidate to reject - they aren't having their driving criticised. But hopefully the gap between their current ability and their potential, once apparent, will provide the necessary incentive to improve.
Given the parameters, I'd have thought something like a BMW 330 would be a suitable car for the job. Interesting (aspirational?) enough to dispel any fuddy-duddy aura of advanced driving; bland enough not to be centre of attention during the hour; quiet enough to hear each other.
WilliBetz
Edited by willibetz on Sunday 7th January 10:53
spokey said:
Can I just say something here? I've spoken to about a dozen IAM people about the IAM and learning about it, and they really are the most condescending tits I've ever met. I lie, one of them was great. The others all left me wanting to punch them within 10 minutes. Unfortunately, they all seem to feel the fact that they are qualified as better drivers gives them the right to talk down to us lesser mortals. It doesn't bode well for their ability to change their own attitude in other aspects of their life.
And I WANTED to find out more. If you really think that sticking a newly-keen teenager driver in a car with a holier-than-thou preacher giving it large sanctimony for an hour will do ANYTHING positive, I respectfully submit that you are incredibly misguided.
And I WANTED to find out more. If you really think that sticking a newly-keen teenager driver in a car with a holier-than-thou preacher giving it large sanctimony for an hour will do ANYTHING positive, I respectfully submit that you are incredibly misguided.
LOL
So, ask the one who was great?
I agree with you. Many IAM members are condescending tits. But a lot aren't. That's why I said senior Observer - you'd have a better chance that this type would be useful.
And just because you found them to be condescending doesn't mean the lad would.
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