Thumb up/thumb down gear changing?
Discussion
Thumb up thumb down is often looked for in an advanced drive, partly to see that the driver has applied thought to the gearchange process.
When teaching what I personally look for is clear input matched to the sprung or usnprung planes. 1-2 or 2-1 require palming across then appropriate pressure fore-aft. This is generally thumb down. For 2-3 I look for a forward, relax as springing moves across the lever, forward. This "can" be done with thumb-index finger shaped as a U or thumb up. 3-4 and 4-3 no sideways forces so the lever always goes where it should- thumb up or fingertips back3-4 U forward 4-3. 5-6 changes are significantly as per 1st 2nd plane My own general rule is that the energy put into the lever should be an absolute minimum. It is amazing how fast the change can be done in this way. It is also very satisfying, keeps wear on mechanicals of car and driver to a minimum and can be easily combined with heel & toe / double declutching as skill allows. Of course that would conflict with brake gear overlap. If you can't DD then get your gear at the end of the braking, unless you want to risk locking up the driven wheels.
Once the hand graps the whole gearlever there tends to be significant input of force, risking the likelihood of an inaccurate change. As a teacher of learners it is also difficult to tell what gear we end up in. Even with experienced drivers this has been know to result in a 4th-1st rather than 4-3 gearchange coming into Redgate, which you really don't want and have to be fast to save the engine and the lock-up from the passenger seat!
Knowing your gearbox springing and matching the inputs to just and only just what is required will reap real driving dividends, rather than any dogmatic viewpoint. "At this level I expect to be seeing thumbs up 3-4 changes" may be the comment of your advanced examiner but you have to remember that what you are doing is aiming for a clean, unnoticeable gearchange not aiming to pass a test wrapped in dogma -was that 7 checks before we move off? A scientific approach of experiment, analyse, deduce from results is perhaps a more pragmatic stance for the driver who really wants to improve for the right reasons.
Sometimes we teach for the hoops we have to drive through.
Chacun a son gout!
When teaching what I personally look for is clear input matched to the sprung or usnprung planes. 1-2 or 2-1 require palming across then appropriate pressure fore-aft. This is generally thumb down. For 2-3 I look for a forward, relax as springing moves across the lever, forward. This "can" be done with thumb-index finger shaped as a U or thumb up. 3-4 and 4-3 no sideways forces so the lever always goes where it should- thumb up or fingertips back3-4 U forward 4-3. 5-6 changes are significantly as per 1st 2nd plane My own general rule is that the energy put into the lever should be an absolute minimum. It is amazing how fast the change can be done in this way. It is also very satisfying, keeps wear on mechanicals of car and driver to a minimum and can be easily combined with heel & toe / double declutching as skill allows. Of course that would conflict with brake gear overlap. If you can't DD then get your gear at the end of the braking, unless you want to risk locking up the driven wheels.
Once the hand graps the whole gearlever there tends to be significant input of force, risking the likelihood of an inaccurate change. As a teacher of learners it is also difficult to tell what gear we end up in. Even with experienced drivers this has been know to result in a 4th-1st rather than 4-3 gearchange coming into Redgate, which you really don't want and have to be fast to save the engine and the lock-up from the passenger seat!
Knowing your gearbox springing and matching the inputs to just and only just what is required will reap real driving dividends, rather than any dogmatic viewpoint. "At this level I expect to be seeing thumbs up 3-4 changes" may be the comment of your advanced examiner but you have to remember that what you are doing is aiming for a clean, unnoticeable gearchange not aiming to pass a test wrapped in dogma -was that 7 checks before we move off? A scientific approach of experiment, analyse, deduce from results is perhaps a more pragmatic stance for the driver who really wants to improve for the right reasons.
Sometimes we teach for the hoops we have to drive through.
Chacun a son gout!
DocJock said:
Combover said:
Acceptable?
Why do you feel the need to seek approval for the way you manipulate a stick in a single plane ?
Nobody on this board is better placed than you to decide what is the 'best' way.
I was asking his personal opinion...acceptable to you?. That is the way I change gear and was indeed taught that way when I was learning to drive. I don't do it any other way. I'm just interested to know how other people do it as I can't see another way of making the shifts smoother or quicker. This could be because I'm slightly set in my ways though...
instructormike said:
Even with experienced drivers this has been know to result in a 4th-1st rather than 4-3 gearchange coming into Redgate, which you really don't want and have to be fast to save the engine and the lock-up from the passenger seat!
One of the early mods for the Caterham 6 spd box for the racers was stronger springing to the 3rd/4th plane to avoid the 5th to 2nd incidents when racing. I;ve certainly done it!
GRaham
Surely it's irrelevant how you hold the stick? It's the outcome that matters, i.e. changing gear accurately and smoothly. The rest is just pedantry (the like of which can put off many people from advanced driving). A technique will suit some people better than others.
Combover said:
I was asking his personal opinion...acceptable to you?
Thumb down is no longer acceptable to me, thanks to stern advice on the matter from my physio. Notice how the thumb down position changes the position of the shoulder joint. If you drive a lot, do you really want to put that gradual strain on your shoulder joint? It's poor biomechanics (and caused me problems through imperceptable, gradual build up). waremark said:
Yes he did. Look at pages 34/35/36 in his Porsche driving book - he used thumb up/down, with a loose palming grip.
For what it's worth, not when he taught me, he didn't. Equally, another instructor at race school scolded me for changing grip on the gear stick, which he felt wasted time. Each to their own ... Edited by SVS on Wednesday 14th February 20:33
I guess I'm going to have to read some driving tutorials lol, as my style would probably horify most of you.
I've got a bad habit of driving one handed and resting the other in the shift knob.
The only time I ever use the clutch is 1st and reverse. I just use a gentle preasure and
engine revs for the rest. 1-2, 3-4 & 3-2 shifts would be thumb down and oh so gently... when the rpm's
are just right it gently slides into gear with no noise or compaint. Thumb up for the rest, just as gently.
If you can shift smoothly up and down without the clutch, and feel no backlash in the gears on downshifts,
does it really cause any damage?
I've got a bad habit of driving one handed and resting the other in the shift knob.
The only time I ever use the clutch is 1st and reverse. I just use a gentle preasure and
engine revs for the rest. 1-2, 3-4 & 3-2 shifts would be thumb down and oh so gently... when the rpm's
are just right it gently slides into gear with no noise or compaint. Thumb up for the rest, just as gently.
If you can shift smoothly up and down without the clutch, and feel no backlash in the gears on downshifts,
does it really cause any damage?
brap_brap said:
If you can shift smoothly up and down without the clutch, and feel no backlash in the gears on downshifts, does it really cause any damage?
It's an impressive party piece, but not great for the mechanism that holds the car in a selected gear and is designed to be overcome with the clutch disengaged.
WilliBetz
willibetz said:
brap_brap said:
If you can shift smoothly up and down without the clutch, and feel no backlash in the gears on downshifts, does it really cause any damage?
It's an impressive party piece, but not great for the mechanism that holds the car in a selected gear and is designed to be overcome with the clutch disengaged.
WilliBetz
Once it's IN gear, what's the difference? Are you suggesting that once it's IN gear, the way I GOT it there
determines the likelyhood of it popping out of gear?
What law of physics did you re-write to come up with that?
willibetz said:
No, I'm thinking about the pressure exerted to pull the transmission out of gear with the clutch still engaged. And I'm only commenting in response to your specific question. If your method works for you, then great.
WilliBetz
WilliBetz
Ahhhh I see what you're saying. Okay, here's how I do it....
Uh, but first with a text explantion...
If you are accelerating in a gear, the input gear and output gear will meet on one side of the gear teeth yes?
If you decelerate the other side of the two teeth now mate...yes?
The space in between the gears is called backlash yes?
You don't just yank a a shift lever out of gear with preasure still on the teeth. Moreover, you don't disengage
the gear while decellerating if the preasure is on the other side of the gear tooth. There IS however a small window
of opportunity where you're neither applying power nor coasting in gear. It is at THAT point you shift to neutral...
while no preasure is applied to either side of the gear tooth.
instructormike said:
Thumb up thumb down is often looked for in an advanced drive, partly to see that the driver has applied thought to the gearchange process.
When teaching what I personally look for is clear input matched to the sprung or usnprung planes. 1-2 or 2-1 require palming across then appropriate pressure fore-aft. This is generally thumb down. For 2-3 I look for a forward, relax as springing moves across the lever, forward. This "can" be done with thumb-index finger shaped as a U or thumb up. 3-4 and 4-3 no sideways forces so the lever always goes where it should- thumb up or fingertips back3-4 U forward 4-3. 5-6 changes are significantly as per 1st 2nd plane My own general rule is that the energy put into the lever should be an absolute minimum. It is amazing how fast the change can be done in this way.
When teaching what I personally look for is clear input matched to the sprung or usnprung planes. 1-2 or 2-1 require palming across then appropriate pressure fore-aft. This is generally thumb down. For 2-3 I look for a forward, relax as springing moves across the lever, forward. This "can" be done with thumb-index finger shaped as a U or thumb up. 3-4 and 4-3 no sideways forces so the lever always goes where it should- thumb up or fingertips back3-4 U forward 4-3. 5-6 changes are significantly as per 1st 2nd plane My own general rule is that the energy put into the lever should be an absolute minimum. It is amazing how fast the change can be done in this way.
I was taught this method when learning, and have used ever since...explained as 'guiding' the stick in the right (H or V direction). Have been noticing recently how many drivers don't, and instead use palm-down on top of the stick.
instructormike said:
....It is also very satisfying, keeps wear on mechanicals of car and driver to a minimum and can be easily combined with heel & toe / double declutching as skill allows. Of course that would conflict with brake gear overlap. If you can't DD then get your gear at the end of the braking, unless you want to risk locking up the driven wheels....
Ok, just a quickie. What`s the official position on 'blipping' for a downshift (not actually DD)?
I`m just starting to co-drive my son & the missus doesn`t like me 'driving like a racing driver' as she 'was never taught like that, but I feel it`s easier on the clutch and I hate the complaining whine from the box, especially on 5-2 or 4-2 shifts.
I know he`ll have to learn block shifts, but would that be something that will lose him points on his test?
Cheers,
Nik.
nikbj68 said:
instructormike said:
....It is also very satisfying, keeps wear on mechanicals of car and driver to a minimum and can be easily combined with heel & toe / double declutching as skill allows. Of course that would conflict with brake gear overlap. If you can't DD then get your gear at the end of the braking, unless you want to risk locking up the driven wheels....
Ok, just a quickie. What`s the official position on 'blipping' for a downshift (not actually DD)?
I`m just starting to co-drive my son & the missus doesn`t like me 'driving like a racing driver' as she 'was never taught like that, but I feel it`s easier on the clutch and I hate the complaining whine from the box, especially on 5-2 or 4-2 shifts.
I know he`ll have to learn block shifts, but would that be something that will lose him points on his test?
Cheers,
Nik.
I know for a fact that DSA examiners enjoy a nice, smooth ride, and if a candidate displays smooth car control, including gearchanges, then it certainly helps towards a pass.
I'd try to move away from "blipping", and get your lad to practice raising the revs, as I described here. - www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=361550&f=154&h=0
Wish him luck from me.
Edited by R_U_LOCAL on Monday 12th March 14:51
R_U_LOCAL said:
I know for a fact that DSA examiners enjoy a nice, smooth ride, and if a candidate displays smooth car control, including gearchanges, then it certainly helps towards a pass.
I'd try to move away from "blipping", and get your lad to practice raising the revs, as I described here. - www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=361550&f=154&h=0
Wish him luck from me.
Excellent tutorial, Reg. That`s very much how I drive, but I thought starting him off with a blip would be easier for him to grasp.
I`ll be glad when I can pass the bulk of the grief I get from `erself onto a qualified instructor, but for now I`m enjoying seeing him getting better by the minute.
Many thanks for your shared wisdom.
Nik.
If the gearchange is done without "overlapping" then it's quite easy to gently raise the revs to match rather then blip as you have the undivided attention of the foot on the throttle! If you are changing down during braking and want to rev-match then you will be heel n toeing. It is quite hard to accurately raise the revs to rev match with the side of your foot (not impossible though). That's why you do a blip which is a bit less refined. You also match the timing of the gearchange and clutch to the blip rather than raise the revs to match the timing of the gearchange IYSWIM.
Mind you blipping is by far more fun so I always do it in the Tiv!!
Bert
Mind you blipping is by far more fun so I always do it in the Tiv!!
Bert
brap_brap said:
I guess I'm going to have to read some driving tutorials lol, as my style would probably horify most of you.
I've got a bad habit of driving one handed and resting the other in the shift knob.
The only time I ever use the clutch is 1st and reverse. I just use a gentle preasure and
engine revs for the rest. 1-2, 3-4 & 3-2 shifts would be thumb down and oh so gently... when the rpm's
are just right it gently slides into gear with no noise or compaint. Thumb up for the rest, just as gently.
If you can shift smoothly up and down without the clutch, and feel no backlash in the gears on downshifts,
does it really cause any damage?
I've got a bad habit of driving one handed and resting the other in the shift knob.
The only time I ever use the clutch is 1st and reverse. I just use a gentle preasure and
engine revs for the rest. 1-2, 3-4 & 3-2 shifts would be thumb down and oh so gently... when the rpm's
are just right it gently slides into gear with no noise or compaint. Thumb up for the rest, just as gently.
If you can shift smoothly up and down without the clutch, and feel no backlash in the gears on downshifts,
does it really cause any damage?
I suspect so! It can put uneccessary wear on the synchro as you are slotting in especially if you hold the gearlever with some pressure. Of course the better you are at judging the right revs, the less damage will be done.
Bert
bertbert said:
... That's why you do a blip which is a bit less refined. You also match the timing of the gearchange and clutch to the blip rather than raise the revs to match the timing of the gearchange IYSWIM.
Yes, ISWYM, a subtle but good point! bertbert said:
...Mind you blipping is by far more fun so I always do it in the Tiv!!
Bert
Bert
OH yes.
But not quite so satisfying in a 1.8 Fiesta Diesel!
My main issue was that because the missus "wasn`t taught to rev between gears, therefore I`m teaching him wrong" yet when I mention her holding the car on the clutch at the nearest traffic lights on an uphill gradient I`M bieng a picky chauvanist man driver, I just wanted a bit of affirmation!
(And yes, guess who will have to change, or worse, PAY for someone to change, the clutch that 'they' prematurely wear out!)
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