Teaching youngsters to drive and associated hazards.
Discussion
So, the gf's son is taking driving lessons. I taught him the basics of car control before he started his lessons and he's now approaching test standard according to his instructor. Last night he wanted to show me how he had improved so we went out for a drive. His car control is very good so I suggested we go on some moderately tricky back roads so I could show him how to use the whole road and get clues to how to read the road from headlights, signage etc.
Now this is where it all started to go a bit pete tong.... He was reluctant to use the right side of the road on left handers but with a bit of help he started to get the hang of it. What he hadn't been taught (and I may just be encouraging him too soon) is adjusting his speed for bends. They come in three varieties it seems, slow medium and fast. That's it.
We were on roads I had never travelled before on purpose so he had to "read" the road. Before too long the inevitable happened, he got it woefully wrong on the approach to a tight bend and didn't scrub off enough speed. The gf squealed around the time I decided to intervene.... I pulled the handbrake on and pushed the wheel to help us get round but I could feel the rears trying to lock
Not being keen on trying to control a skid from the passenger seat I eased the handbrake a bit and we *just* got round. He seemed blissfully unaware of just how close we came to ending up in one of Lincolnshire's many dikes 
So we turn round and I drive the same series of bends with him passengering, exaggerating the car moving around, the apex etc and then get him to try the bend again himself. The next time he did much better and we carried on with me encouraging him to use as much of the road as possible when it was appropriate and look for clues as to where he should be going.
What shocked me is how close he is to test standard yet how little he actually has been taught about reading the road. That's not criticising the instructor whose job it is to get him through the test more realising why so many new drivers end up going off the road.
Now we've uncovered this we'll definitely be going out again frequently on the most awkward dark and plain nasty roads I can find before he passes his test
Any other areas that are often overlooked when youngsters are learning? I want to make the most of the time we can mould/improve his driving before he's unleashed on the world.
Now this is where it all started to go a bit pete tong.... He was reluctant to use the right side of the road on left handers but with a bit of help he started to get the hang of it. What he hadn't been taught (and I may just be encouraging him too soon) is adjusting his speed for bends. They come in three varieties it seems, slow medium and fast. That's it.
We were on roads I had never travelled before on purpose so he had to "read" the road. Before too long the inevitable happened, he got it woefully wrong on the approach to a tight bend and didn't scrub off enough speed. The gf squealed around the time I decided to intervene.... I pulled the handbrake on and pushed the wheel to help us get round but I could feel the rears trying to lock
Not being keen on trying to control a skid from the passenger seat I eased the handbrake a bit and we *just* got round. He seemed blissfully unaware of just how close we came to ending up in one of Lincolnshire's many dikes So we turn round and I drive the same series of bends with him passengering, exaggerating the car moving around, the apex etc and then get him to try the bend again himself. The next time he did much better and we carried on with me encouraging him to use as much of the road as possible when it was appropriate and look for clues as to where he should be going.
What shocked me is how close he is to test standard yet how little he actually has been taught about reading the road. That's not criticising the instructor whose job it is to get him through the test more realising why so many new drivers end up going off the road.
Now we've uncovered this we'll definitely be going out again frequently on the most awkward dark and plain nasty roads I can find before he passes his test
Any other areas that are often overlooked when youngsters are learning? I want to make the most of the time we can mould/improve his driving before he's unleashed on the world.
You've highlighted exactly the area I worked on with motorcycle trainees for years. Bendy bits on the open (but not always very wide) road.
There's a world of difference between teaching someone to pass a test and teaching them how to drive/ride for long term survival and enjoyment. The examiners always liked my trainees as they were the most relaxed and aware of what was going on around them. The same for my advanced driving candidates.
How about covering overtaking?
Firm acceleration?
There's no need to go to a high level if he's still prepping for his test 'cos it'll cause confusion, but it's worth getting the thoughts in place...
There's a world of difference between teaching someone to pass a test and teaching them how to drive/ride for long term survival and enjoyment. The examiners always liked my trainees as they were the most relaxed and aware of what was going on around them. The same for my advanced driving candidates.
How about covering overtaking?
Firm acceleration?
There's no need to go to a high level if he's still prepping for his test 'cos it'll cause confusion, but it's worth getting the thoughts in place...
BliarOut said:
Any other areas that are often overlooked when youngsters are learning? I want to make the most of the time we can mould/improve his driving before he's unleashed on the world.
Unlit country roads at night in the pissing rain or snow
I was very lucky in that I was taught to drive by my grandad - a retired driving instructor - so several lessons a week at no cost
I also didn't rush things to pass my test as quickly as possible. I was also taken out a lot my my Dad (a taxi driver) and Uncle on the worst roads they could find in all conditions: horrible city centre junctions at rush hour, pot-holed country lanes, fast dual carriageways etc. Consequently I got to experience just about every road type and condition imaginable.
I'm trying teach him the techniques I covered in advanced motorcycling.... Overtaking is a good idea, but perhaps not yet after last nights little adventure He was also getting sucked along by quicker vehicles from time to time but I explained why it's not a good idea to follow and to try to set his own pace. I also suggested he use a single flick of the indicator when people were being held up a little and to ease off the accelerator if they were trying to get past.
I have taken him out in my car and demonstrated overtaking and planning how to minimise TED but I don't think he's ready just yet.
They *seem* to focus on setting a speed rather than constant micro adjustments for parked cars, curves etc. I know you can't teach experience but it bought it home to me how much they haven't covered when they pass the test.
I've also suggested he does a pass plus for insurance reasons and so as not to insult his ego too much.
I've probably got a couple of months but I'm glad we have the dark nights so I can at least get him some experience before he's on his own.
He was also getting sucked along by quicker vehicles from time to time but I explained why it's not a good idea to follow and to try to set his own pace. I also suggested he use a single flick of the indicator when people were being held up a little and to ease off the accelerator if they were trying to get past. I have taken him out in my car and demonstrated overtaking and planning how to minimise TED but I don't think he's ready just yet.
They *seem* to focus on setting a speed rather than constant micro adjustments for parked cars, curves etc. I know you can't teach experience but it bought it home to me how much they haven't covered when they pass the test.
I've also suggested he does a pass plus for insurance reasons and so as not to insult his ego too much.
I've probably got a couple of months but I'm glad we have the dark nights so I can at least get him some experience before he's on his own.
ipsg.glf said:
Do you not think there is the danger of overloading him with too much info and possibly compromising his DSA training?
Personally, I would wait until he has passed his test, get him through PassPlus and then through IAM.
Personally, I would wait until he has passed his test, get him through PassPlus and then through IAM.
Honestly? No, I think its better if he fails his test until he can handle the hazards the real world will throw at him. Why learn incorrectly and then have to unlearn bad habits? If he can pass the test but not spot a tightening apex he's not ready to be out on his own IMO.
Make sure he can do a proper emergency stop at faster than 15mph. Before I got my car I had done a total of two... one with my instructor and one during the test. Was a bit of a shock the first time I had to properly slam on the anchors (nasty incident on motorway last year) and found out what a real emergency stop felt like.
Oooh and get him to practise real-life parking 'cos the ability to back into a space three car lengths long is about as much use as a chocolate teapot in yer average town parking situation.
Oooh and get him to practise real-life parking 'cos the ability to back into a space three car lengths long is about as much use as a chocolate teapot in yer average town parking situation.
BliarOut said:
I also suggested he use a single flick of the indicator when people were being held up a little...
I assume you mean indicate left to show he is willing to be overtaken? Personally, I don't think that is a good idea. Even if it is not your intention, you are effectively saying "overtake me", thereby suggesting that it is safe to overtake. I would rather leave it entirely up to the person behind to decide whether it is safe to overtake.
Edited by SamHH on Tuesday 30th January 16:59
It's interesting, Bliar, that going to the right hand side of the lane on left hand bends is my big "difficulty" thing...and I am an observer for the IAM and just embarking on HPC 
Don't get me wrong, I do it, but I always worry about someone cutting a lot of the corner coming towards!
Anyway, I am faced with a similar problem. My girlfriend (25) is just learning to drive and she has asked if I accompany her so she can get practice in. I, initially, said no as I thought there is no better way to have an argument than trying to teach your girlfriend to drive However we spoke about it at length and I agreed, (is this the right thing or not? 
).
So, how much do I teach?! Do we go full on IAM? Well my thoughts (not started yet, she's getting a car in a couple of weeks) is that - as you have done Bliar - hazard perception, good road positioning, and reading of hazards (be they bends, roundabouts etc). That will only be after she is confident behind the wheel though.
I think those skills will help somebody be alot smoother in their driving (forget whether it's to IAM standard or not!) and will help them to pass their test. Much more and I think it could confuse rather than help.
AFTER they've passed though, PassPlus and IAM all the way - invaluable!
Don't get me wrong, I do it, but I always worry about someone cutting a lot of the corner coming towards!
Anyway, I am faced with a similar problem. My girlfriend (25) is just learning to drive and she has asked if I accompany her so she can get practice in. I, initially, said no as I thought there is no better way to have an argument than trying to teach your girlfriend to drive
However we spoke about it at length and I agreed, (is this the right thing or not? ). So, how much do I teach?! Do we go full on IAM? Well my thoughts (not started yet, she's getting a car in a couple of weeks) is that - as you have done Bliar - hazard perception, good road positioning, and reading of hazards (be they bends, roundabouts etc). That will only be after she is confident behind the wheel though.
I think those skills will help somebody be alot smoother in their driving (forget whether it's to IAM standard or not!) and will help them to pass their test. Much more and I think it could confuse rather than help.
AFTER they've passed though, PassPlus and IAM all the way - invaluable!
BliarOut said:
ipsg.glf said:
Do you not think there is the danger of overloading him with too much info and possibly compromising his DSA training?
Personally, I would wait until he has passed his test, get him through PassPlus and then through IAM.
Personally, I would wait until he has passed his test, get him through PassPlus and then through IAM.
Honestly? No, I think its better if he fails his test until he can handle the hazards the real world will throw at him. Why learn incorrectly and then have to unlearn bad habits? If he can pass the test but not spot a tightening apex he's not ready to be out on his own IMO.
Agreed but if you want a driving licence you need to jump through the hoops that the DSA provide. You need to take it easy and not overload him. IMHO.
SamHH said:
BliarOut said:
I also suggested he use a single flick of the indicator when people were being held up a little...
I assume you mean indicate left to show he is willing to be overtaken? Personally, I don't think that is a good idea. Even if it is not your intention, you are effectively saying "overtake me", thereby suggesting that it is safe to overtake. I would rather leave it entirely up to the person behind to decide whether it is safe to overtake.
Edited by SamHH on Tuesday 30th January 16:59
I'm a biker too, old habits die hard
TonyHetherington said:
It's interesting, Bliar, that going to the right hand side of the lane on left hand bends is my big "difficulty" thing...and I am an observer for the IAM and just embarking on HPC
Don't get me wrong, I do it, but I always worry about someone cutting a lot of the corner coming towards!
Anyway, I am faced with a similar problem. My girlfriend (25) is just learning to drive and she has asked if I accompany her so she can get practice in. I, initially, said no as I thought there is no better way to have an argument than trying to teach your girlfriend to drive However we spoke about it at length and I agreed, (is this the right thing or not? ).
So, how much do I teach?! Do we go full on IAM? Well my thoughts (not started yet, she's getting a car in a couple of weeks) is that - as you have done Bliar - hazard perception, good road positioning, and reading of hazards (be they bends, roundabouts etc). That will only be after she is confident behind the wheel though.
I think those skills will help somebody be alot smoother in their driving (forget whether it's to IAM standard or not!) and will help them to pass their test. Much more and I think it could confuse rather than help.
AFTER they've passed though, PassPlus and IAM all the way - invaluable!
Don't get me wrong, I do it, but I always worry about someone cutting a lot of the corner coming towards!
Anyway, I am faced with a similar problem. My girlfriend (25) is just learning to drive and she has asked if I accompany her so she can get practice in. I, initially, said no as I thought there is no better way to have an argument than trying to teach your girlfriend to drive
However we spoke about it at length and I agreed, (is this the right thing or not? ). So, how much do I teach?! Do we go full on IAM? Well my thoughts (not started yet, she's getting a car in a couple of weeks) is that - as you have done Bliar - hazard perception, good road positioning, and reading of hazards (be they bends, roundabouts etc). That will only be after she is confident behind the wheel though.
I think those skills will help somebody be alot smoother in their driving (forget whether it's to IAM standard or not!) and will help them to pass their test. Much more and I think it could confuse rather than help.
AFTER they've passed though, PassPlus and IAM all the way - invaluable!
Right side of the left lane? I use the right hand gutter if it's appropriate on left handers
I'm not trying to conflict with the DSA stuff but to tutor him in spotting hazards and generally equipping him to deal with the "gaps" in tuition and give him the best chance of avoiding a major cockup while he's in his early driving days. PassPlus is a definite as it'll help him with insurance (the "sell" if you like) and I've heard good things about it.
Lincolnshire has it's own set of problems on the backroads. They nearly all run alongside dikes and due to the fen soil frequently subside and try to throw the car straight in the dyke. If he hasn't been taught to drive down the centre and watch the undulations sooner or later he'll end up taking a bath and that's not a good sort of crash to have.
Fortunately he doesn't argue with my advice, one of the perks of being mums Porsche owning boyfriend I suppose
I agree IAM style is overkill for now, but when he's in the car I do it to show him how to make progress safely and smoothly.
Ah the benefits of dual control cars
The best bit of advice my father gave me was on skid control and how to regain control of a car once you'd lost it (shame it had to be on the M5 when I was doing 70mph ). His only other criticisms have been my uncanny ability to find pot-holes and the fact that I changed gear more times than Nigel Mansell when pressing on through the twisties. I'm a reformed driver now
For what it's worth, I believe that much of what the IAM teach is common sense and I do not think that it would necessarily overload the young lad. Lincolnshire roads are pretty treacherous so I agree that it is better that he postpone his test or fail than end up in a dyke.
Bon chance!
The best bit of advice my father gave me was on skid control and how to regain control of a car once you'd lost it (shame it had to be on the M5 when I was doing 70mph
). His only other criticisms have been my uncanny ability to find pot-holes and the fact that I changed gear more times than Nigel Mansell when pressing on through the twisties. I'm a reformed driver now For what it's worth, I believe that much of what the IAM teach is common sense and I do not think that it would necessarily overload the young lad. Lincolnshire roads are pretty treacherous so I agree that it is better that he postpone his test or fail than end up in a dyke.
Bon chance!
Edited by EmmaP on Tuesday 30th January 22:21
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff