Is my advanced driving tuition dangerous?
Discussion
Over the last week while practicing my RoADA systems I have had:
On Sat' morning a muppet in a Clio sitting 2 inches from my back bumper going ballistic as I was doing 30/32 in a 30. I mean I could see her red face in the mirror. As I came to the start of the NSL at the bottom of a long, steep hill I start to 'firm up on the acceleration', she pulls out to overtake and commits! My car is a TD with 130 brake and great wads of torque. So I'm left with 2 choices; hang her out to dry to teach her a lesson or brake and allow her to creep up the hill and eventually complete the overtake 1/2 a mile up the road (I exaggerate but you get the idea).
This morning while running through my straightahead approach to roundabouts I get muppet #2 in his Audi straightlining and nearly collecting my o/s rear. For this I then get constant (and I mean constant) offers of coffee and leaning on his horn for the next 3 roundabouts over a mile or so.
These are not isolated incidents they happen almost every time I start applying the system and keeping to the speed limit. No matter where or when some feckwit will do something that really astonishes me. I'd hate to see what would happen if I used my M3 for practice and left the Mazda at home
Does anyone else suffer this problem or could it be something I'm doing?
On Sat' morning a muppet in a Clio sitting 2 inches from my back bumper going ballistic as I was doing 30/32 in a 30. I mean I could see her red face in the mirror. As I came to the start of the NSL at the bottom of a long, steep hill I start to 'firm up on the acceleration', she pulls out to overtake and commits! My car is a TD with 130 brake and great wads of torque. So I'm left with 2 choices; hang her out to dry to teach her a lesson or brake and allow her to creep up the hill and eventually complete the overtake 1/2 a mile up the road (I exaggerate but you get the idea).
This morning while running through my straightahead approach to roundabouts I get muppet #2 in his Audi straightlining and nearly collecting my o/s rear. For this I then get constant (and I mean constant) offers of coffee and leaning on his horn for the next 3 roundabouts over a mile or so.
These are not isolated incidents they happen almost every time I start applying the system and keeping to the speed limit. No matter where or when some feckwit will do something that really astonishes me. I'd hate to see what would happen if I used my M3 for practice and left the Mazda at home
Does anyone else suffer this problem or could it be something I'm doing?
Edited by naetype on Monday 12th February 14:20
Its not "the system" that's the problem.
Its the keeping to the speed limit thing.
How I deal with it is this:
No one has the right to expect me to break the law for their convenience. I will not be pushed. Similarly it is none of my business as to whatever speed someone else wishes to travel at provided they do not put me in danger because of it.
So if someone wants to get by me whilst I am driving at the speed limit I will do my best to help them by.
But exiting 30mph limits can be very, very frustrating as some utter muppet pulls out and overtakes thirty yards from the limit change to the National Speed Limit and then proceeds to do 45mph.
If they've proven capable of the muppetry above? Then I (if safe and appropriate) overtake 'em back. If they catch me up in the next town along I'd be very surprised (if you know what I mean...)
Its the keeping to the speed limit thing.
How I deal with it is this:
No one has the right to expect me to break the law for their convenience. I will not be pushed. Similarly it is none of my business as to whatever speed someone else wishes to travel at provided they do not put me in danger because of it.
So if someone wants to get by me whilst I am driving at the speed limit I will do my best to help them by.
But exiting 30mph limits can be very, very frustrating as some utter muppet pulls out and overtakes thirty yards from the limit change to the National Speed Limit and then proceeds to do 45mph.
If they've proven capable of the muppetry above? Then I (if safe and appropriate) overtake 'em back. If they catch me up in the next town along I'd be very surprised (if you know what I mean...)
I am not an advanced driver by any stretch of the imagination, but yes, I find similar issues in many situations where you don't go as fast as the other driver would expect to go at that point.
Think of it as an, "I've seen something that you haven't" type of thing.
Acceleration sense is the one that I always find odd; you're gently slowing as you approach a queue up ahead, and the driver behind is suddenly all over the rear of your car, trying to get you to roar up to the traffic and slam on the brakes the same way they would.
Really, I think it's just one of the things you have to accept if you ever want to improve your driving; the further you get from the everday, "Jump in, stare straight ahead and maintain 44.4mph" school of thought, the more members of that school won't understand in the slightest what you're trying to do.
"So what is this muppet doing slowing down by the school at 3:20pm, anyway?"
Think of it as an, "I've seen something that you haven't" type of thing.
Acceleration sense is the one that I always find odd; you're gently slowing as you approach a queue up ahead, and the driver behind is suddenly all over the rear of your car, trying to get you to roar up to the traffic and slam on the brakes the same way they would.
Really, I think it's just one of the things you have to accept if you ever want to improve your driving; the further you get from the everday, "Jump in, stare straight ahead and maintain 44.4mph" school of thought, the more members of that school won't understand in the slightest what you're trying to do.
"So what is this muppet doing slowing down by the school at 3:20pm, anyway?"
naetype said:
This morning while running through my straightahead approach to roundabouts I get muppet #2 in his Audi straightlining and nearly collecting my o/s rear. For this I then get constant (and I mean constant) offers of coffee and leaning on his horn for the next 3 roundabouts over a mile or so.
Not sure I quite understand what happened there!
In general it's mostly a problem of driving at no more than the speed limit in a 30 zone. The best thing is if the following car goes by (mind you watch out for roadrage antics when they do - like pulling sharply in and brake testing you).
You can use a "tailgater" technique of gentle variation of speed to try to build a bigger gap between and get the message through. You have to use judgement in case that enrages more.
However, in general, it is a good thing to try to mitigate the circumstances of causes of other people's frustrations regardless of whether it transgresses what might be considered an Advanced ideal. An example...
The Advanced Driver when proceeding at 60mph NSL on a single carriageway road might decelerate for a 30 zone using skill and judgement to get to the 30 sign without using the brakes. However for a following driver this could be very frustrating. The Advanced Driver would have to ask themselves whether it would have been better to use the brakes for the 30 zone andn cause less frustration.
Graham
gridgway said:
The Advanced Driver would have to ask themselves whether it would have been better to use the brakes for the 30 zone andn cause less frustration.
Graham
Graham
Personally if I have someone following in that situation I DO use the brakes. Not actually to brake, you understand, but just so that the brake lights are illuminated during the slowing. Even utter muppets seem to understand that if the brake lights are on you must be slowing down. And I brake as slowly and smoothly as possible to give them loads of time to react.
Never, ever feel pushed to drive poorly by someone behind you. Instead get them past as quickly as possible. If necessary by slowing to a halt (safely!) and pulling over. Its not worth it having a frustrated driver behind you planning on doing something dumb. Get them in front where you can see them and deal with whatever they want to do.
They'll feel better at having got past and you can relax instead of needing to deal with a tailgater.
The corollary of this is that if I am in a hurry out in an NSL I hope the guy in front has the same attitude. I won't tailgate - but I will be going past. I don't mind if the other guy thinks I'm a knob for wanting to drive fast - just so long as he takes care to let me by as quickly and as safely as practical. Personally I am scrupulous not to cause the guy in front any inconvenience but I will be going by...
Could you have done something to let the Audi by more safely and quickly -- despite the fact that he was "in the wrong"?
I think the biggest hallmark of advanced driving in some of the excellent drivers I've had the pleasure to drive with is the ability to shift mindset so that they will take account of others numptyism as part of their plan -- knowing that some will go faster as they take a greater risk -- and helping them to get past.
I think the biggest hallmark of advanced driving in some of the excellent drivers I've had the pleasure to drive with is the ability to shift mindset so that they will take account of others numptyism as part of their plan -- knowing that some will go faster as they take a greater risk -- and helping them to get past.
Good answer by 7db. I agree.
Yes, we all suffer it occasionally and the normal thing is to feel annoyed or frustrated. However, bear in mind that the "muppet" could be a regular driver, simply having a very bad day. People may be having to drive home after being made redundant, having to rush their loved one to hospital or anything else. You simply never know.
I'd avoid teaching anyone a lesson. Top priority has got to be simply getting to where you're going safely.
I do the same thing; it's an absolutely essential skill on the bike. You can even buy aftermarket Electro Pods Brake Lights to do this automatically for you:
www.demon-tweaks.co.uk/products/Pr
naetype said:
Does anyone else suffer this problem or could it be something I'm doing?
Yes, we all suffer it occasionally and the normal thing is to feel annoyed or frustrated. However, bear in mind that the "muppet" could be a regular driver, simply having a very bad day. People may be having to drive home after being made redundant, having to rush their loved one to hospital or anything else. You simply never know.
naetype said:
So I'm left with 2 choices; hang her out to dry to teach her a lesson or brake and allow her to creep up the hill and eventually complete the overtake 1/2 a mile up the road (I exaggerate but you get the idea).
I'd avoid teaching anyone a lesson. Top priority has got to be simply getting to where you're going safely.
naetype said:
I'd hate to see what would happen if I used my M3 for practice
I ride a 1000cc Ducati, but still get tailgated from time to time. I find it doesn't matter how fast you go. You will inevitably come across someone unhappy at being stuck behind you. Don said:
Personally if I have someone following in that situation I DO use the brakes. Not actually to brake, you understand, but just so that the brake lights are illuminated during the slowing.
I do the same thing; it's an absolutely essential skill on the bike. You can even buy aftermarket Electro Pods Brake Lights to do this automatically for you:
www.demon-tweaks.co.uk/products/Pr
Edited by SVS on Wednesday 14th February 21:00
managed to make myself safe from two tailgaters today! I managed three times this morning to put a car between me and the perp! Excellent fun (all done sensibly and safely with mostly timing). Mind you the first two times that the car between us turned off, he was *very* determined to get back into tailgaiting mode.
This evening managed to coordinate with the private hire taxi behind and get him to "safely" overtake.
Graham
This evening managed to coordinate with the private hire taxi behind and get him to "safely" overtake.
Graham
One of the biggest chalenges as you work at improving your driving standards is not to become annoyed/frustrated/angry at those around who will display lower levels of skill and attitude. Consider how their driving is affecting you and if possible get them out of your zone (usually be letting them past) or at least having them in front of you where it is easier to keep an eye on what they are doing. It can really spoil your concentration and flow if you are constantly having to watch the mirrors to see how the muppet behind you is reacting.
If you are being tailgated and cannot encourage them to apss, either slow down enough to make sure you have plenty of safety zone in front of you, or find somewhere safe to pull in/over, even consider turning off into a side road, or garage to get them out of your way. then you can continue with your drive and hope you don't find them further along the way either in a ditch or worse, because then it could be very tempting to make some truthful comments...
If you are being tailgated and cannot encourage them to apss, either slow down enough to make sure you have plenty of safety zone in front of you, or find somewhere safe to pull in/over, even consider turning off into a side road, or garage to get them out of your way. then you can continue with your drive and hope you don't find them further along the way either in a ditch or worse, because then it could be very tempting to make some truthful comments...
Two points:
(1) My attitude to being tailgated was changed a couple of years ago. It used to drive me mad, and therefore ruin my driving standard.
One afternoon I was driven by a friend who tailgated everywhere. Eventually I felt so unsafe I said something, the only time I've ever done that.
She was really surprised that I was uncomfortable and explained that she wasn'tpushing the car in front to go faster, it was just that she couldn't see a justification for hanging further back because her car had good brakes.
(2) My experience is that speeding up when you're being tailgated rarely helps because even if you start to carry serious speed (use your imagination here) the follower may well just stay tucked on your tail and do whatever you do.
(1) My attitude to being tailgated was changed a couple of years ago. It used to drive me mad, and therefore ruin my driving standard.
One afternoon I was driven by a friend who tailgated everywhere. Eventually I felt so unsafe I said something, the only time I've ever done that.
She was really surprised that I was uncomfortable and explained that she wasn'tpushing the car in front to go faster, it was just that she couldn't see a justification for hanging further back because her car had good brakes.
(2) My experience is that speeding up when you're being tailgated rarely helps because even if you start to carry serious speed (use your imagination here) the follower may well just stay tucked on your tail and do whatever you do.
SVS said:
However, bear in mind that the "muppet" could be a regular driver, simply having a very bad day. People may be having to drive home after being made redundant, having to rush their loved one to hospital or anything else. You simply never know.
I suppose that could have been an option in this case. Maybe he really was in a rush to hospital to give his ailing loved one some coffee and the beans weren't for me after all.
nah. But I get the idea and applaud the sentiment.
I do find it hard when this thing occurs to maintain an even keel but I'm getting better at it. Well, the Kalashnikov should be here any day now and that's giving me something to look forward to
Edited by naetype on Friday 16th February 01:32
SVS said:
However, bear in mind that the "muppet" could be a regular driver, simply having a very bad day. People may be having to drive home after being made redundant, having to rush their loved one to hospital or anything else. You simply never know.
I've been caught out with that one - wondering why the guy behind had raced up behind me in a 30 zone, felt like he was caressing the back bumper of my car, then for him to overtake. While I was thinking "twat" he slammed on the anchors & indicators and simultaneously threw the car into the car park of fire station a few hundred yards up the road. Right enough, a few seconds later the tender came out blues & twos blaring.
I'm not an advanced driver and have thought about attempting to join IAM a few times. My biggest problem in the car though is I tend to find myself getting annoyed by the muppets around me. For examples - following the 40mph club then getting to a town. You drop to 30 and another 40mph club member overtakes you in the town. by the time you get out the 30 and back into the NSL you miss the only potential overtake because they've gone so quick through the town.
Similarly tailgaters, MLMs etc etc. I can withstand it only so long until I realise how much I'm being held up, or I'm starting to panic thinking this
is about to re-arrange the back of my car etc. From everything you see/read about IAM tips, you just think this can only irritate the muppets even more than usual. If that style of driving was more prevelant it would be the idiots that stood out, unfortunately it seems the idiots far out number the decent drivers these days, therefore a safe driver stands out and causes problems. cj_eds said:
therefore a safe driver stands out and causes problems.
Now you see. I don't think its actually that bad. A good ,safe, courteous driver doesn't cause problems. In fact they actually "help out" making that road a safer, nicer place to be as they travel along it.
The fact that you get the odd nutter who gets steamed up simply because you're in front of them doesnt' negate this.
Another thing is that I think that the hallmark of a good driver is that they are largely dispassionate and professional about their driving. They remain calm no matter what. They do not react badly to poor driving around them - they simply deal with it as one of the many hazards they are coping with at the time.
cj_eds said:
SVS said:
However, bear in mind that the "muppet" could be a regular driver, simply having a very bad day. People may be having to drive home after being made redundant, having to rush their loved one to hospital or anything else. You simply never know.
I've been caught out with that one - wondering why the guy behind had raced up behind me in a 30 zone, felt like he was caressing the back bumper of my car, then for him to overtake. While I was thinking "twat" he slammed on the anchors & indicators and simultaneously threw the car into the car park of fire station a few hundred yards up the road. Right enough, a few seconds later the tender came out blues & twos blaring.
Racing around a 30 zone and agressive tailgating...he should know better given his line of work.
Letting him past was the best move.
Don said:
cj_eds said:
therefore a safe driver stands out and causes problems.
Now you see. I don't think its actually that bad. A good ,safe, courteous driver doesn't cause problems. In fact they actually "help out" making that road a safer, nicer place to be as they travel along it.
The fact that you get the odd nutter who gets steamed up simply because you're in front of them doesnt' negate this.
Another thing is that I think that the hallmark of a good driver is that they are largely dispassionate and professional about their driving. They remain calm no matter what. They do not react badly to poor driving around them - they simply deal with it as one of the many hazards they are coping with at the time.
It works for me. It's peace, goodwill and harmony throughout IME, well near enough, honestly. Just be patient, try to remain detached from all the weird antics, and enjoy a quiet feeling of superiority if that helps. It might not be justified all the time
but make the most of it anyhow. Best wishes all,
Dave.
Don said:
....they are largely dispassionate and professional about their driving. They remain calm no matter what. They do not react badly to poor driving around them - they simply deal with it as one of the many hazards they are coping with at the time.
Being a silver lining to every cloud this is actually what I tried to do. My reckoning was that if I managed to stay calm and not overreact to this intimidation and aggression this would be a good experience and help me come my test (which I've been told I should now book
) cj_eds said:
I'm not an advanced driver and have thought about attempting to join IAM a few times. My biggest problem in the car though is I tend to find myself getting annoyed by the muppets around me. For examples - following the 40mph club then getting to a town. You drop to 30 and another 40mph club member overtakes you in the town. by the time you get out the 30 and back into the NSL you miss the only potential overtake because they've gone so quick through the town.
But this is where your new skills are so valuable and the fun begins. Come the NSL you now start to use your new skills to gain ground unobtrusively (and you WILL) and that old slow coach they overtook on the blind corner at 20 over the limit (Friday that was
) is now sitting 2 seconds behind them 
and not having put anyone else, or themselves, in danger to be there. Not a great advert for their skills. Edited by naetype on Saturday 17th February 12:40
Hi cj_eds,
I'm not an advanced driver and have thought about attempting to join IAM a few times ... From everything you see/read about IAM tips, you just think this can only irritate the muppets even more than usual.There's considerably more to roadcraft than merely driving within the law. I would encourage you to try the IAM, such as by investing £25 in an IAM Drive Check:
www.iam.org.uk/eshop/membershipsho
If you like it, great! If it's not for you, then at the very least you'll have had informative drive.
However, as I've often posted, there is no substitute for top-notch professional coaching from the likes of www.cadence.co.uk or www.ridedrive.co.uk
You get what you pay for. These folks will not only make you safer, but make your driving more rewarding too
Have fun
cj_eds said:
I'm not an advanced driver and have thought about attempting to join IAM a few times ... From everything you see/read about IAM tips, you just think this can only irritate the muppets even more than usual.
www.iam.org.uk/eshop/membershipsho
If you like it, great! If it's not for you, then at the very least you'll have had informative drive.
However, as I've often posted, there is no substitute for top-notch professional coaching from the likes of www.cadence.co.uk or www.ridedrive.co.uk
You get what you pay for. These folks will not only make you safer, but make your driving more rewarding too Have fun
I'm sorry and with all due respect to most who post here, I think some of the advanced driving instruction stuff DOES take place in conditions where you simply get in the way.
I'm sure I'm not right here, but I did try a few times to do some work for the then IAM advanced stuff. But I gave up because I did feel that no matter what speed limits were observed and I did interrupt normal traffic flow. I'm not talking about the extreme case of tail gaters but in general context of approaching complicated road junctions or particular hazards, you had to drive at a speed which balked traffic flow.
For many years now I've been a 30,000 mile a year man and I have a few views which run contrary probably to the way advanced road driving affections do condone. For example, at non peak times, I actually think that there is a lot of good driving goes on particularly on the antiquated motorway system, not necessarily legal or considerate and definitely aggressive but 'good', alert, satisfying and non-time wasting.
But in the modern world and with so much progress in road design, the values are in favour of flow, rhythm, getting on with it. Drivers who don't, drivers say with 2 or more cars behind them start to break up the natural flow from which emanates impatience, unexpected delay and irritation.
I'm quite sure there are those 'advanced drivers' in this section who expert enough to take in all the observance, preparation and anticipation, positioning and so on, not to break up rapid traffic progress (so many of which seem so much up there arses as to beggar belief; someone above expounds the value of feeling superior to the halfwit who is piled up behind them, needing to hurry and trying to get past, causing so much more irritation, is a fool IMHO).
Why can't modern folk get the hang of the notion that if someone's right behind you, get out of the way? Two wrongs don't make a right. If you can't get out of the way, speed up till you can, let them get on with it.
So yes, some of your advance driving tuition IS (likely to be) dangerous.
I'm sure I'm not right here, but I did try a few times to do some work for the then IAM advanced stuff. But I gave up because I did feel that no matter what speed limits were observed and I did interrupt normal traffic flow. I'm not talking about the extreme case of tail gaters but in general context of approaching complicated road junctions or particular hazards, you had to drive at a speed which balked traffic flow.
For many years now I've been a 30,000 mile a year man and I have a few views which run contrary probably to the way advanced road driving affections do condone. For example, at non peak times, I actually think that there is a lot of good driving goes on particularly on the antiquated motorway system, not necessarily legal or considerate and definitely aggressive but 'good', alert, satisfying and non-time wasting.
But in the modern world and with so much progress in road design, the values are in favour of flow, rhythm, getting on with it. Drivers who don't, drivers say with 2 or more cars behind them start to break up the natural flow from which emanates impatience, unexpected delay and irritation.
I'm quite sure there are those 'advanced drivers' in this section who expert enough to take in all the observance, preparation and anticipation, positioning and so on, not to break up rapid traffic progress (so many of which seem so much up there arses as to beggar belief; someone above expounds the value of feeling superior to the halfwit who is piled up behind them, needing to hurry and trying to get past, causing so much more irritation, is a fool IMHO).
Why can't modern folk get the hang of the notion that if someone's right behind you, get out of the way? Two wrongs don't make a right. If you can't get out of the way, speed up till you can, let them get on with it.
So yes, some of your advance driving tuition IS (likely to be) dangerous.
ph123 said:
... So yes, some of your advance driving tuition IS (likely to be) dangerous.
I disagree (though understand your views).
I'm tottling alone, say at the limit ...
Right, if anyone wants to go faster than me, I don't have an issue, however, seeing I'm legal then they should not push me in order to exceed the limit. I'm not dangerous, there are - simple as that.
Another example - someone doing 30 in a 60 is often marked as dangerous "as they force drivers to overtake them" ... Nope, they mearly give rise for an oppotunity to overtake, and it's up to the following driver to ensure itis safe. Had one last weekend - 30 in a 60, sat behind for 7 miles as no safe overtake, when one was available, I took it. Yes I could have overtaken sooner, but it would have been dangerous, not the fault of the "slow" driver though.
Martin
Edited by mph999 on Saturday 17th February 23:50
mph999 said:
ph123 said:
... So yes, some of your advance driving tuition IS (likely to be) dangerous.
I disagree (though understand your views).
I'm tottling alone, say at the limit ...
Right, if anyone wants to go faster than me, I don't have an issue, however, seeing I'm legal then they should not push me in order to exceed the limit. I'm not dangerous, there are - simple as that.
Another example - someone doing 30 in a 60 is often marked as dangerous "as they force drivers to overtake them" ... Nope, they mearly give rise for an oppotunity to overtake, and it's up to the following driver to ensure itis safe. Had one last weekend - 30 in a 60, sat behind for 7 miles as no safe overtake, when one was available, I took it. Yes I could have overtaken sooner, but it would have been dangerous, not the fault of the "slow" driver though.
Martin
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff