A safe overtake, but against the highway code, opinions
Discussion
R_U_LOCAL said:
vonhosen said:
That's the more definitive list, because it's from the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, not the highway code.
Good grief! I've just been out anoraked!
That's a first.
Nay, don't be so modest, but you'll get used to this sort of thing with Von.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
There are ways of avoiding prosecution for crossing solid whites but, referring back to the initial post, the advice must always be that crossing the line is putting you at odds with what the highways boys have deemed reasonable for a person trying to make fair progress. You have to ask yourself why it is necessary to take a (greater) risk to perform an overtake in such a place. All overtakes involving the opposite direction carriageway are, by definition, risk heightening. To further compound the risk by being at variance with highways seems at odds with "normal" use of the roads as against racing. We should never be taking undue risk on the road. If you find yourself frustrated by the driver ahead my simple advice, just like on trackdays, is to take that (metaphorical) pitstop for a minute or two, then proceed again. If we really have to make a time schedule then we've planned badly, not the driver in front.
If you're driving at "a rate" you will always catch up "the dawdler" and introduce your own self-induced frustration. Driving is always about managing your physical and psychological environment, that is you and the surrounding drivers: And you have to remember that you always influence your surroundings, even though you don't think you do. I do tuition in a little Seat Arosa and also an M3. Funnily enough one influences its environment more than the other!
If you're driving at "a rate" you will always catch up "the dawdler" and introduce your own self-induced frustration. Driving is always about managing your physical and psychological environment, that is you and the surrounding drivers: And you have to remember that you always influence your surroundings, even though you don't think you do. I do tuition in a little Seat Arosa and also an M3. Funnily enough one influences its environment more than the other!
I'd just like to single out a couple of points from that post, Mike. This I agree with...
But this I don't...
People with a basic level of driver training are averse to using the offside of the road, whereas at a more advanced level, use of the offside is favourable and perfectly acceptable. When looking for an opportunity to overtake, for instance, a better view can be obtained by moving the whole car offside, than that which is obtained just by moving your head to the right a bit, or by moving up to, but not over the centre lines.
People who haven't been taught to overtake properly try to complete their overtakes as quickly as possible, keeping their time on the offside to an absolute minimum. This can often result in them "over-accelerating", and then having to brake back down into a following position on the next vehicle. A better driver will take a little longer in the overtake (providing it's safe, of course, but I'd hope that goes without saying), and use acceleration sense to complete an overtake and slot in behind the next car. It is, without doubt, a little scary for a student the first time I tell them to "ease off the accelerator" when they're still only halfway past the overtaken vehicle, but after a few attempts, it usually starts to make perfect sense to them, and reduces the "clog and anchor" nature of the drive.
Don't get me wrong - I understand where you're coming from with the comment, but I've always tried to get students - particularly advanced students - away from the "right and wrong side of the road" mentality. It's perfectly acceptable to use the offside of the road, where it's appropriate and safe.
Apart from where white line systems dictate otherwise *ahem* Hugh.
instructormike said:
We should never be taking undue risk on the road
But this I don't...
instructormike said:
All overtakes involving the opposite direction carriageway are, by definition, risk heightening
People with a basic level of driver training are averse to using the offside of the road, whereas at a more advanced level, use of the offside is favourable and perfectly acceptable. When looking for an opportunity to overtake, for instance, a better view can be obtained by moving the whole car offside, than that which is obtained just by moving your head to the right a bit, or by moving up to, but not over the centre lines.
People who haven't been taught to overtake properly try to complete their overtakes as quickly as possible, keeping their time on the offside to an absolute minimum. This can often result in them "over-accelerating", and then having to brake back down into a following position on the next vehicle. A better driver will take a little longer in the overtake (providing it's safe, of course, but I'd hope that goes without saying), and use acceleration sense to complete an overtake and slot in behind the next car. It is, without doubt, a little scary for a student the first time I tell them to "ease off the accelerator" when they're still only halfway past the overtaken vehicle, but after a few attempts, it usually starts to make perfect sense to them, and reduces the "clog and anchor" nature of the drive.
Don't get me wrong - I understand where you're coming from with the comment, but I've always tried to get students - particularly advanced students - away from the "right and wrong side of the road" mentality. It's perfectly acceptable to use the offside of the road, where it's appropriate and safe.
Apart from where white line systems dictate otherwise *ahem* Hugh.
I have to say that nothing in your post do I disagree with and indeed this is the same practice we use. At no point do we use the "right" and "wrong" side of the carriageway terminology. However, when on the "oncoming" side of the road, and in context with the initial post, the potential for a vehicle to turn left from a hitherto unforseen junction into your path when considering the double white scenario is "heightened". My words, I think, were considered. The worst overtake I had the pleasure of experiencing was an "experienced" driver who came to me with significant fast car experience. He would accelerate the car with virtually zero vision to a point level with the vehicle ahead before he had any knowledge of the oncoming vehicles. We soon changed his approach to the method you outline - standard roadcraft approach really.
When doing fleet training one has to also consider that some authorities do not condone use of the full road width for vision, for reasons of a litigious nature.
Mike
When doing fleet training one has to also consider that some authorities do not condone use of the full road width for vision, for reasons of a litigious nature.
Mike
Edited by instructormike on Monday 19th February 22:06
instructormike said:
There are ways of avoiding prosecution for crossing solid whites but, referring back to the initial post, the advice must always be that crossing the line is putting you at odds with what the highways boys have deemed reasonable for a person trying to make fair progress. You have to ask yourself why it is necessary to take a (greater) risk to perform an overtake in such a place. All overtakes involving the opposite direction carriageway are, by definition, risk heightening. To further compound the risk by being at variance with highways seems at odds with "normal" use of the roads as against racing. We should never be taking undue risk on the road. If you find yourself frustrated by the driver ahead my simple advice, just like on trackdays, is to take that (metaphorical) pitstop for a minute or two, then proceed again. If we really have to make a time schedule then we've planned badly, not the driver in front.
If you're driving at "a rate" you will always catch up "the dawdler" and introduce your own self-induced frustration. Driving is always about managing your physical and psychological environment, that is you and the surrounding drivers: And you have to remember that you always influence your surroundings, even though you don't think you do. I do tuition in a little Seat Arosa and also an M3. Funnily enough one influences its environment more than the other!
If you're driving at "a rate" you will always catch up "the dawdler" and introduce your own self-induced frustration. Driving is always about managing your physical and psychological environment, that is you and the surrounding drivers: And you have to remember that you always influence your surroundings, even though you don't think you do. I do tuition in a little Seat Arosa and also an M3. Funnily enough one influences its environment more than the other!
When you talk about being at variance with 'highways', is this the guy in the office again? Why should it be assumed that he knows better than the fellow actually driving on that road in these conditions, now?
....and BTW you don't mean 'carriageway', you mean 'lane'. Overtaking using the opposing carriageway would be asking for trouble!
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Sometimes these posts are quite entertaining. A single carriageway can have an opposite lane -the opposite carriageway. Of course it's always possible, whilst deciding on the words to use, you may run over a pedant!
The thing with these lines is that they are there for the person who has never driven in that part of the world, ever. And the highways guys have been there all day looking at angles. Who do we trust - IN GENERAL?
I agree that there are many instances of road marking that could be improved, but we cannot pick and chose those that we comply with and those that we ignore, just because we think that we know better.
Personally the white line I'd like to see would be a solid white line delineating lane 1 on motorways for the last 1/4 mile or so before an exit, just to stop the lane changing brigade, as in France.
The thing with these lines is that they are there for the person who has never driven in that part of the world, ever. And the highways guys have been there all day looking at angles. Who do we trust - IN GENERAL?
I agree that there are many instances of road marking that could be improved, but we cannot pick and chose those that we comply with and those that we ignore, just because we think that we know better.
Personally the white line I'd like to see would be a solid white line delineating lane 1 on motorways for the last 1/4 mile or so before an exit, just to stop the lane changing brigade, as in France.
Edited by instructormike on Monday 19th February 22:17
GreenV8S said:
instructormike said:
A single carriageway can have an opposite lane - the opposite carriageway.
That doesn't sound quite right to me.
I agree it doesn't.
A single carriageway will be a one way street, a single track road, or will have lanes of opposing traffic.
For there to be an opposing carriageway it will be dual carriageway, which requires seperation by a physical barrier that isn't just paint.
Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 20th February 01:01
It's that midnight oil bit again chaps! I meant by single carriageway road the opposing side (of the) carriageway, not an opposing carriageway! I stand - or sit - tired and corrected!:-)
The sentiment remains the same though, regarding the solid white. But,as R_U_local stated, early and considered use of the opposite side of the road - carriageway!- can be particularly beneficial for an effective overtake and indeed many other situations.
The difficulty of written posts is that, unlike having someone next to you for the day when a wide range of scenarios can be played out and discussed, where pros and cons of e.g.positioning can be looked at in a wide range of road conditions, the written word or diagram or photo will give a general approach which must be safe but allows progress. Just like the solid whites. These can, as we all know, reduce options for positioning for observation, reduced steering etc. But it would not be reasonable or expected that either an officer of the law or an instructor could uphold a somewhat laissez faire approach to infringement. I have had quite a few conversations with fellow instructors - (RoSPA and police trainers) about issues we disagree with, but to offer testament in print is another matter!
Mike
The sentiment remains the same though, regarding the solid white. But,as R_U_local stated, early and considered use of the opposite side of the road - carriageway!- can be particularly beneficial for an effective overtake and indeed many other situations.
The difficulty of written posts is that, unlike having someone next to you for the day when a wide range of scenarios can be played out and discussed, where pros and cons of e.g.positioning can be looked at in a wide range of road conditions, the written word or diagram or photo will give a general approach which must be safe but allows progress. Just like the solid whites. These can, as we all know, reduce options for positioning for observation, reduced steering etc. But it would not be reasonable or expected that either an officer of the law or an instructor could uphold a somewhat laissez faire approach to infringement. I have had quite a few conversations with fellow instructors - (RoSPA and police trainers) about issues we disagree with, but to offer testament in print is another matter!
Mike
instructormike said:
Personally the white line I'd like to see would be a solid white line delineating lane 1 on motorways for the last 1/4 mile or so before an exit, just to stop the lane changing brigade, as in France.
So, you're making legal progress in lane 2 past a line of nose-to-tail heavies. Your exit is approaching. You can see a perfectly reasonable/safe space to slot into lane 1 to take your exit. But it's at the 200 yard marker.
You'd just tuck in behind all the LGVs and wait for the exit then?
Also, what is the legality of the solid white line? Does it meant don't cross from either side, or don't cross left to right?
R_U_LOCAL said:
vonhosen said:
That's the more definitive list, because it's from the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, not the highway code.
Good grief! I've just been out anoraked!
That's a first.
[JohnWaynevoiceon] You're new around here son, aren't ya? [/JohnWaynevoiceoff]
Vaux said:
instructormike said:
Personally the white line I'd like to see would be a solid white line delineating lane 1 on motorways for the last 1/4 mile or so before an exit, just to stop the lane changing brigade, as in France.
So, you're making legal progress in lane 2 past a line of nose-to-tail heavies. Your exit is approaching. You can see a perfectly reasonable/safe space to slot into lane 1 to take your exit. But it's at the 200 yard marker.
You'd just tuck in behind all the LGVs and wait for the exit then?
Also, what is the legality of the solid white line? Does it meant don't cross from either side, or don't cross left to right?
The legality on crossing a solid white line depends on what it is for & where it is.
Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 20th February 11:28
D'oh! Meant to say double white lines. EmmaP said:
Surely the presence of white lines indicates that there is a real danger, a hazard, present? Whilst it may not have been apparent, they may be concealed, such as blind dips.
Blind dips are one reason that solid whites will be used. In such cases it will be a double white line system (of some description), enforceable for crossing & subject to Sec 36 Road Traffic Act 1988.
Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 20th February 11:39
vonhosen said:
The legality on crossing a solid white line depends on what it is for & where it is.
Slightly off topic.
Motorway exit chevroned area ("bullnose"?) HA have extended a solid white line (with red reflectors) from the point of the bullnose some 400-500 metres.
If you were parked up and saw me cross this line from lane 2 to lane 1, without bothering anybody else, could you do me for something (related to crossing the line)?
instructormike said:
Sometimes these posts are quite entertaining. A single carriageway can have an opposite lane -the opposite carriageway. Of course it's always possible, whilst deciding on the words to use, you may run over a pedant!
The thing with these lines is that they are there for the person who has never driven in that part of the world, ever. And the highways guys have been there all day looking at angles. Who do we trust - IN GENERAL?
I agree that there are many instances of road marking that could be improved, but we cannot pick and chose those that we comply with and those that we ignore, just because we think that we know better.
The thing with these lines is that they are there for the person who has never driven in that part of the world, ever. And the highways guys have been there all day looking at angles. Who do we trust - IN GENERAL?
I agree that there are many instances of road marking that could be improved, but we cannot pick and chose those that we comply with and those that we ignore, just because we think that we know better.
Wot me, a pedant? Surely not, but if not me, it'll be somebody else. You can't escape them here.
Anyhow, if you've got a single carriageway you can't also have an opposing one. For that you would need two - well that's what I reckon, but I expect you'll disagree. No prob.
I'm not concerned about who you trust 'in general' - I simply do not accept that my judgement is automatically inferior to that of another individual who is not there at the time, when I am there, looking at what affects the issue. How do you know who 'designed' the linework and what their qualifications are for doing that? I say again - come and look at some of the nonsense we've got round here.
Whatever, if you'll be so kind as to replace 'cannot' with 'should not' - I'll be happy to agree with you on that bit.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
You ain't wrong there. instructormike said:
It's that midnight oil bit again chaps! I meant by single carriageway road the opposing side (of the) carriageway, not an opposing carriageway! I stand - or sit - tired and corrected!:-)
OK Mike, sorry I sounded a bit prickly earlier. I just knew Von would be along PDQ to sort you out.
...and of course I'm always willing to help.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
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