How to stop things getting worse

[oddridge]

R_U_LOCAL said:

You could find a quiet roundabout somewhere and have a go, but there's always the possibility that something could go badly wrong.

Grosvenor Road roundabout, 2AM. RX7 TII. 20mph, second gear.

Think I'll have to visit Nu Luk wheels after that one...

BTW anyone recommend a skid pan? Nutts Corner maybe?

Edited by oddridge on Tuesday 15th May 09:21

[cupra-r rob]

I think one of the main points is to stay calm. I must admit that, not proudly, upto a couple of years ago i drove way to fast. I can think of way too many close calls but its taught me loads and i consider myself a good driver now and often get good comments off passengers. The main experences i remember are in past cars with no abs, esp etc. going too fast and getting sideways in the country in the wet and stupid overtakeing maneuvers getting the wheels locked up. However the most important thing ive learnt is that if your slideing or skiding, being relaxed, calm and smooth seems to make everything else come naturally. I think that if anyones reading this that has not been in any skidding/slideing situation before should concentrate more on the state of mind rather than transfering weight etc. Just my 2pence anyway.

[Blue160]

Hello

First post, been lurking on here for a while, but had a little moment last night that has made me sign up and post.

I was reading through this topic last week and I'm extremely glad that I did because GreenV8S stopped me having a nasty accident.

Coming home from a late finishing concert in Bournemouth, I turned off the motorway a junction earlier than usual due to a night time closure, and ended up on some twisty B roads at around midnight, very tired after a sixteen hour day and not paying enogh attention to the road.

Coming round a sweepin right hand bend at 50/60 mph it suddenly tightened dramaticaly and I had to come off the gas a bit. This induced some extremely sudden lift off oversteer, which I managed to correct, but this induced a second slide the other way...... By this time I am fishtailing down the road and each slide is becoming bigger.

Absoulutely certain at this point that I am going to crash.

I fishtailed five or six times before remembering greenV8S's advice to hit the brakes. hit them firmly but not hard and the sliding stopped imediately, the car stopping in very little distance in a straight line.

straightened up and drove the rest of the way at 25mph. Got out of the car and I was white as a sheet and shaking.

I will never ever ever get my self into a situation like that again (lesson truly learned), but a big thank you to the expert drivers on this forum who saved my bacon.

[GravelBen]

Well done for remembering the advice and recovering it


p.s. The first time is always the scariest

[GreenV8S]

Blue160 said:

I fishtailed five or six times before remembering greenV8S's advice to hit the brakes. hit them firmly but not hard and the sliding stopped imediately, the car stopping in very little distance in a straight line.

I'm very glad you got away unscathed on this occasion. It sounds as if you had a very lucky escape.

Just to clarify, my advice if the car is essentially out of control and not pointing where you want to go is to apply the brakes as hard as possible in order to lock all four wheels. With all four wheels locked the car will continue in a straight line until it stops or hits something. It's not always the best thing to do, but it's a pretty darned good default that gives you the best chance in most situations. If you have enough skill and experience to decide on a better course of action and the presence of mind to carry it out then go for it. However, there is imo a strong temptation to keep fighting for control after you have lost it, and this is a bad mistake. I've seen several cars 'in the flesh' go off because the driver didn't have the sense to bail out. I've seen an awful lot on videos where the driver kept fighting it for second after second and eventually ran out of space and hit hard, which could have been a matter of stopping, selecting first gear and driving off if the driver had the presence of mind to stop fighting for control and concentrate on getting it stopped. It's saved me personally from a 100mph trip into the armco after hitting some unexpected gravel. It shouldn't be the first thing you do, but if the car is slewing across the road don't wait too long before you do it.

[Blue160]

Can you lock the wheels with ABS

[vonhosen]

Blue160 said:

Can you lock the wheels with ABS

When you are fishtailing down a straight, if you hit the brakes in a car with ABS, the wheels won't lock & the rear end will effectively come into line. If you do the same in a non ABS car, the wheels will lock & the car will skid in the direction the nose is pointing at the time the wheels lock.

[TripleS]

vonhosen said:

Blue160 said:

Can you lock the wheels with ABS

When you are fishtailing down a straight, if you hit the brakes in a car with ABS, the wheels won't lock & the rear end will effectively come into line. If you do the same in a non ABS car, the wheels will lock & the car will skid in the direction the nose is pointing at the time the wheels lock.

Beg pardon Von, but that last bit doesn't seem right. Surely the car will continue in the direction it was travelling, rather than the direction it was facing - as Peter (GreenV8S) explains.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Blue160]

Actually when this happened the car pulled up in the direction it was facing rather than continuing sideways. The sliding stopped imediately which came as something of a relief...........

[TripleS]

Blue160 said:

Actually when this happened the car pulled up in the direction it was facing rather than continuing sideways. The sliding stopped imediately which came as something of a relief...........

That's what I thought might happen with the ABS car, but not the non-ABS car. I'm maybe getting more confused now.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Blue160]

Mine is ABS although it didn't cut in

[GreenV8S]

This is one of my reservations about ABS, it removes an option from the driver which could be important in some scenarios. On balance the safety benefits for day-to-day driving outweigh this by a large margin imo, but I'd still prefer to have the capability to lock the wheels if I really wanted to.

[GravelBen]

GreenV8S said:

This is one of my reservations about ABS, it removes an option from the driver which could be important in some scenarios. On balance the safety benefits for day-to-day driving outweigh this by a large margin imo, but I'd still prefer to have the capability to lock the wheels if I really wanted to.

As someone who spends a fair bit of time on loose surfaced roads I'm really not a fan of ABS. Just last weekend it caught me out actually - I was playing silly buggers admittedly, handbrake-parking in a gravel carpark the same as I've done there many times before - handbrake it round then gently on the brakes to broadside it sideways to a stop. Except instead of drifting sideways the ABS kicked in and the car rolled gently into the fence in front of me . Not sure if I put slightly more pressure on the brakes than previously or if it was just having a bit more weight in the car that caused it, or some other random factor. Left a small but annoying mark on my bumper anyway. In general I'm against any car feature that tries to second-guess my driving, because they often get it wrong. Agree that ABS etc is beneficial to the majority of people though.

Edited by GravelBen on Monday 21st May 11:30

[TripleS]

GravelBen said:

GreenV8S said:

This is one of my reservations about ABS, it removes an option from the driver which could be important in some scenarios. On balance the safety benefits for day-to-day driving outweigh this by a large margin imo, but I'd still prefer to have the capability to lock the wheels if I really wanted to.

As someone who spends a fair bit of time on loose surfaced roads I'm really not a fan of ABS. Just last weekend it caught me out actually - I was playing silly buggers admittedly, handbrake-parking in a gravel carpark the same as I've done there many times before - handbrake it round then gently on the brakes to broadside it sideways to a stop. Except instead of drifting sideways the ABS kicked in and the car rolled gently into the fence in front of me :headbang: . Not sure if I put slightly more pressure on the brakes than previously or if it was just having a bit more weight in the car that caused it, or some other random factor. Left a small but annoying mark on my bumper anyway. In general I'm against any car feature that tries to second-guess my driving, because they often get it wrong. Agree that ABS etc is beneficial to the majority of people though.

I know this is not an easy matter, but it does sound as if the car makers are trying to be a bit too clever with some of the features they are now incorporating into cars. One example is where headlights come on automatically in gloomy conditions. There appear to have been cases where this system has produced a brief flash of headlights, and this, unfortunately, has been taken as a signal to another driver, perhaps to emerge from a side road.

Then there is the one that prevents a throttle blip at the same time as braking - so no heeling and toeing is possible for those who like to use that technique.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[bexd]

Wow well i wish i had read this about 2 months ago!!! i had a clio 172 cup and as it was relatively new i didnt know its limits, came off the bypass onto a roundabout that had recently been resurfaced, prob goin a bit fast but car just skidded, back went out and i lifted off the accelerator too much i realise now causing the car to transfere to much to the front and nose dive!!!(prob wouldnt have happened so badly if there had been passengers in the back but as the cup was so light it just went) in the end the car did a 180 hit the curb on the wrong side of the roundabout jumped and came to a stop 2 metres from a very large embankment!!! ive have definatly learnt my lesson and hopefully have better knowledge if it every happens again !!! oh car was a write off but replaced it with a honda civic type r - which i will be very sensible in at roundabouts!!!

[thegman]

i had a similar experience about a year ago. i own an 60's mgb gt so RWD with NO driver aids but not particularly powerful. it has a few mods to the engine so it was fun to throw around a little but not by any means hairy - i must confess i have deliberately got the back on occasion.

however one day upon exiting a roundabout onto a dual carraigeway at a fair pace and I had made a foolish error by forgetting something that every TVR driver will know never to forget - it was raining.

I came straight off the throttle and experienced the progression that GreenV8 described - at first i thought i had control but then the car straightened suddenly. The car began to fish tail with me manically trying to compensate until i was facing entirely the wrong direction. this was a bit strange as I could now see the traffic behind me. i was very lucky - the sensible drivers behind me slowed down. i went straight into the grass at the side of the carraigeway. some small voice in my head said "BRAKE NOW" and i did. i stopped - i think i had lost a lot of speed hitting the grass. then tried not to look to embarrased as the traffic drove past me staring incredulously.

what i learned:
-- drive VERY carefully in the wet
-- drive VERY carefully in the wet
-- i'm not nearly as good a driver as i thought i was
-- especially in the wet

[Big Fat F'r]

Blue160 said:

....brakes.... hit them firmly but not hard and the sliding stopped imediately, the car stopping in very little distance in a straight line.

Well done.

Blue160 said:

I will never ever ever get my self into a situation like that again.

Assuming that you entered the corner thinking you were okay, what are you going to do differently.



Not being funny, just wondering if you know how to change what you are doing, to something 'better'.



BFF

[Blue160]

I drove the same section of road again yesterday and noticed chevron signs at the side of the road indicating the sharpness of the bend

If I had been paying attention to what I was doing on Friday night, i would have seen them then and reacted accordingly

Alternatively if I had recognised that I was tired, and that having spent 2 1/2 hours on the motorway I wasn't judging my speed correctly, I would have slowed down.

Either way no lift off oversteer on the way out of the corner, no danger to myself or anyone else, and no need for a large brandy and a new pair of pants.

[Big Fat F'r]

Blue160 said:

I drove the same section of road again yesterday and noticed chevron signs at the side of the road indicating the sharpness of the bend

If I had been paying attention to what I was doing on Friday night, i would have seen them then and reacted accordingly

Alternatively if I had recognised that I was tired, and that having spent 2 1/2 hours on the motorway I wasn't judging my speed correctly, I would have slowed down.

Either way no lift off oversteer on the way out of the corner, no danger to myself or anyone else, and no need for a large brandy and a new pair of pants.

Sounds good.

Don't forget the Limit Point analysis (which you probably do already, but worth mentioning for the sake of completeness).

BFF

[Blue160]

I'm afraid I have no idea what limit point analysis is

Would be great if you could explain