The even darker art of being overtaken
Discussion
It's great to read a very sensible discourse on how to go about passing another vehicle, but there is one huge variable in the equation of safe overtaking that is often overlooked.
The numb nutted driver in the car you are passing represents variable X.
THE most dangerous activity I see again and again is the driver of the vehicle being overtaken suddenly accelerating when they realise the driver behind is beginning an overtake. Worse still, these damned idiots begin their games when you are already quite committed to completing the overtake - leaving you nowhere to go.
More than once I have seen other drivers, and myself, have to dive on the brakes to abandon an overtake because the recently dawdling car in front suddenly discovers his accelerator.
These days the only time I overtake is when I have a good lead up to the vehicle and a good 10mph advantage at the start of the overtake to ensure any silly games don't put me in unnecessary danger.
When you are being overtaken, by closing up to the vehicle in front and preventing the overtaking car from completing the manoeuvre you are not driving without due care and attention... you are driving dangerously and if causing an accident should be guilty of bloody manslaughter.
There... feelings vented!
The numb nutted driver in the car you are passing represents variable X.
THE most dangerous activity I see again and again is the driver of the vehicle being overtaken suddenly accelerating when they realise the driver behind is beginning an overtake. Worse still, these damned idiots begin their games when you are already quite committed to completing the overtake - leaving you nowhere to go.
More than once I have seen other drivers, and myself, have to dive on the brakes to abandon an overtake because the recently dawdling car in front suddenly discovers his accelerator.
These days the only time I overtake is when I have a good lead up to the vehicle and a good 10mph advantage at the start of the overtake to ensure any silly games don't put me in unnecessary danger.
When you are being overtaken, by closing up to the vehicle in front and preventing the overtaking car from completing the manoeuvre you are not driving without due care and attention... you are driving dangerously and if causing an accident should be guilty of bloody manslaughter.
There... feelings vented!
I couldn't agree more, but there are some signs to watch out for that might suggest that you'll get an aggressive response from the car you're planning to overtake.
As you move around to obtain a view in your following position, look for a slight increase in speed from the vehicle in front. You will sometimes see them wander closer to the centre line in a direct response to you moving in that direction. Look also for their eyes in their centre mirror - you'll often see them paying far more attention to their mirror than they usually do. Some aggressive drivers will also fidget in their seat as they become agitated, leaning forward over the wheel.
I don't like to stereotype, but you're also more likely to get an aggressive response from a young male in a Citroen Saxo than you are from a woman in a Landrover Discovery.
If you're in any doubt whatsoever, always plan for a two vehicle overtake, rather than just the one. That way you're less likely to have to abandon an overtake halfway through.
As you move around to obtain a view in your following position, look for a slight increase in speed from the vehicle in front. You will sometimes see them wander closer to the centre line in a direct response to you moving in that direction. Look also for their eyes in their centre mirror - you'll often see them paying far more attention to their mirror than they usually do. Some aggressive drivers will also fidget in their seat as they become agitated, leaning forward over the wheel.
I don't like to stereotype, but you're also more likely to get an aggressive response from a young male in a Citroen Saxo than you are from a woman in a Landrover Discovery.
If you're in any doubt whatsoever, always plan for a two vehicle overtake, rather than just the one. That way you're less likely to have to abandon an overtake halfway through.
i really should get to sleep!
I agree totally with your observations. You are totally right in that when you move from your following position to "have a look" this often initiates a reaction from the driver in front to start tailgaiting the car in front of him!
It's funny though how we expect people to drive... in my experience the worst culprits for this bahviour in shropshire are 50+ males in Rovers... or women in Vogues...
It's a distinctly british phenomenon...
Personally I actually appreciate the wave or nod from bikers when I give them more room to pass me when I'm stuck in a rolling roadblock...
I agree totally with your observations. You are totally right in that when you move from your following position to "have a look" this often initiates a reaction from the driver in front to start tailgaiting the car in front of him!
It's funny though how we expect people to drive... in my experience the worst culprits for this bahviour in shropshire are 50+ males in Rovers... or women in Vogues...
It's a distinctly british phenomenon...
Personally I actually appreciate the wave or nod from bikers when I give them more room to pass me when I'm stuck in a rolling roadblock...
scoobmeister said:
It's a distinctly british phenomenon...
I think it's even more localised than that. In my overtaking thread, I wrote...
R_U_LOCAL said:
This "overtakaphobia" seems to be a particularly English problem too. I've driven in France, Italy, and extensively in Scotland where I've found the locals far more inclined to assist you in overtaking by moving nearside or giving a helpful indicator when it's safe to go.
There you go - it's an English problem.
Difficult to identify where it stems from though.
I actually get an immense pleasure out of being overtaken - when it's done right.
If I see someone coming up behind and they're patently quicker than me, I'll flash the left indicator once at an appropriate spot and most people get the idea. Oddly, this seems to be more on the early Sunday am run outs in the hills in the summer where everyone seems to be of the same mind.
It's oddly pleasing to see a biker lift their left hand just off the handlebars to acknowledge what you've done (off course, they're also not really giving it full beans). Everyone's so chilled out when you get out of the cities and the weather's good. Just another month or so and we'll back at it...
If I see someone coming up behind and they're patently quicker than me, I'll flash the left indicator once at an appropriate spot and most people get the idea. Oddly, this seems to be more on the early Sunday am run outs in the hills in the summer where everyone seems to be of the same mind.
It's oddly pleasing to see a biker lift their left hand just off the handlebars to acknowledge what you've done (off course, they're also not really giving it full beans). Everyone's so chilled out when you get out of the cities and the weather's good. Just another month or so and we'll back at it...
Amen to that!
Give me the road between knighton and aberystwyth on a sunny day, and a few rolling roadblocks (caravans) for entertainment.
In answer to an earlier post I think flashing one's lights before overtaking will probably only serve to upset the driver in front. Unless you'r in a large white saloon in which case they might momentarily confuse you with the plod and behave! hmmm...
Years ago when I was into the rally scene there was a folklore legend of some guy who had put jam sandwich stripes on their car, and they had stickers on the doors saying "POLITE"... apparently it got a lot of laughs, but also had a profound effect on the bahaviour of other drivers (until they sussed it)...
Give me the road between knighton and aberystwyth on a sunny day, and a few rolling roadblocks (caravans) for entertainment.
In answer to an earlier post I think flashing one's lights before overtaking will probably only serve to upset the driver in front. Unless you'r in a large white saloon in which case they might momentarily confuse you with the plod and behave! hmmm...
Years ago when I was into the rally scene there was a folklore legend of some guy who had put jam sandwich stripes on their car, and they had stickers on the doors saying "POLITE"... apparently it got a lot of laughs, but also had a profound effect on the bahaviour of other drivers (until they sussed it)...
scoobmeister said:
It's funny though how we expect people to drive... in my experience the worst culprits for this bahviour in shropshire are 50+ males in Rovers... or women in Vogues...
A495 Ellesmere-Whitchurch (Shropshire)50+ male in an older car, sees me approaching, indicates left (didn't need to, but made me aware he was aware), I pass him, give him a wave, he gives a little flash of lights.
Now, if they were all like that! They're not all bad in Shropshire!
Edited by Vaux on Sunday 18th March 10:19
Lucid dreams can leave very vivid memories in the waking state. At the end of that blissful episide did you find yourself inexplicably in bed?
If it was this morning, I suspect he was on his way home from the Telford Moonbeam road rally. Granted, a lot of older drivers are great - after all I'll be 50+ in 10 years, and I doubt I'll turn into a raving road nazi by then.
Personally, I think a lot of it has to do with jealousy and social class rivalries. Since I switched from a focus to impreza I get a lot more silliness going on behind me, and I expect the impreza raises the heckles of Gordon McIver (Sunday Driver) when I'm in his rear view mirror.
Mind you... and I say this with some conviction (no pun) - I'd sooner these ****wits be on the road on Sunday than all week when I'm trying to earn a living.
If it was this morning, I suspect he was on his way home from the Telford Moonbeam road rally. Granted, a lot of older drivers are great - after all I'll be 50+ in 10 years, and I doubt I'll turn into a raving road nazi by then.
Personally, I think a lot of it has to do with jealousy and social class rivalries. Since I switched from a focus to impreza I get a lot more silliness going on behind me, and I expect the impreza raises the heckles of Gordon McIver (Sunday Driver) when I'm in his rear view mirror.
Mind you... and I say this with some conviction (no pun) - I'd sooner these ****wits be on the road on Sunday than all week when I'm trying to earn a living.
Vaux said:
scoobmeister said:
It's funny though how we expect people to drive... in my experience the worst culprits for this bahviour in shropshire are 50+ males in Rovers... or women in Vogues...
A495 Ellesmere-Whitchurch (Shropshire)50+ male in an older car, sees me approaching, indicates left (didn't need to, but made me aware he was aware), I pass him, give him a wave, he gives a little flash of lights.
Now, if they were all like that! They're not all bad in Shropshire!
No, I know that to be true. I have a friend in Shropshire (yes, just the one) and you'd be hard pressed to overtake him, but if you did manage it I'm sure he'd play fair.
He's one of the old school.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
One thing that works for me is this:
Be Obvious.
When using the slightly naughty get the car ready in gear, then indicate, pull out, accelerate and go with in little time as possible, about half of drivers would try and speed up.
Whereas indicating to pull out, pulling out, then going seems to result in hardly anybody playing silly buggers.
Firstly, people don't like to be surprised, especially if they're not very good drivers. Secondly, I think it's a confidence issue. As level of social skills reduce personality tends more towards a "dominate or be dominated" response, and by being very upfront about your intention to overtake you're effectively telling them that you're the one in control.
Whereas if you try and sneak past when they're not looking it's saying the opposite, that you're not expecting to be in control of the situation, and they go ahead and show you exactly that.
(Obviously, the above applies to the overtake where you're starting from behind them, at the same speed.)
Be Obvious.
When using the slightly naughty get the car ready in gear, then indicate, pull out, accelerate and go with in little time as possible, about half of drivers would try and speed up.
Whereas indicating to pull out, pulling out, then going seems to result in hardly anybody playing silly buggers.
Firstly, people don't like to be surprised, especially if they're not very good drivers. Secondly, I think it's a confidence issue. As level of social skills reduce personality tends more towards a "dominate or be dominated" response, and by being very upfront about your intention to overtake you're effectively telling them that you're the one in control.
Whereas if you try and sneak past when they're not looking it's saying the opposite, that you're not expecting to be in control of the situation, and they go ahead and show you exactly that.
(Obviously, the above applies to the overtake where you're starting from behind them, at the same speed.)
I've tried all kinds of approaches...
There is a straight of almost a mile between Bishops Castle and Bridgnorth... I have approached a batch of 4 cars all traveling at usual spacings... Because i was pushing on a bit I had dipped lights on, and indicated a good 5 seconds before moving out... by the time I passed them all, they had all closed up to about 10 yards apart.
I'm sure they all saw me coming due to the lights... I couldn't have projected a more dominant posture... and I think in this case they challenged the psychological gambit.
I think the psychologicl side of all this is very interesting indeed.
Incidentally, when it's safe to take my left hand off the wheel I always give a good thank you wave to the driver I have passed - perhaps in forlorn hope that if we all do this then people might begin to feel better about being passed.
There is a straight of almost a mile between Bishops Castle and Bridgnorth... I have approached a batch of 4 cars all traveling at usual spacings... Because i was pushing on a bit I had dipped lights on, and indicated a good 5 seconds before moving out... by the time I passed them all, they had all closed up to about 10 yards apart.
I'm sure they all saw me coming due to the lights... I couldn't have projected a more dominant posture... and I think in this case they challenged the psychological gambit.
I think the psychologicl side of all this is very interesting indeed.
Incidentally, when it's safe to take my left hand off the wheel I always give a good thank you wave to the driver I have passed - perhaps in forlorn hope that if we all do this then people might begin to feel better about being passed.
There is a road near me which is a 40mph limit, for about 1.5 miles.
I travel at 40mph, as there are several junctions where there is low-visibility, although the road itself would be suitable for 60 if it were not for the junctions.
I often get tailgated all the way through this 40mph limit, only to have the car behind attempt to overtake when I reach the NSL zone (long straight piece of road) just after I have started to accelerate from 40 > 60mph as the speed limit dictates (not aggressively, just an increase to match the limit whether a car is behind me or not).
Often the car behind who tries to overtake is a small Fiesta or some such, and even a gentle squeeze of my accelerator unleashing a few of my 475NM of torque is enough to leave them standing causing them to flash their lights and get angry with me.
Bearing in mind I have been doing the limit, and have started to accelerate from 40 > 60 when they start to try to overtake me... should I back off to let them past? Or continue to accelerate up to the 60 limit and carry on my journey (usually leaving them doing 50mph!).
I travel at 40mph, as there are several junctions where there is low-visibility, although the road itself would be suitable for 60 if it were not for the junctions.
I often get tailgated all the way through this 40mph limit, only to have the car behind attempt to overtake when I reach the NSL zone (long straight piece of road) just after I have started to accelerate from 40 > 60mph as the speed limit dictates (not aggressively, just an increase to match the limit whether a car is behind me or not).
Often the car behind who tries to overtake is a small Fiesta or some such, and even a gentle squeeze of my accelerator unleashing a few of my 475NM of torque is enough to leave them standing causing them to flash their lights and get angry with me.
Bearing in mind I have been doing the limit, and have started to accelerate from 40 > 60 when they start to try to overtake me... should I back off to let them past? Or continue to accelerate up to the 60 limit and carry on my journey (usually leaving them doing 50mph!).
LOL... I guess it depends if you put them in danger or not. If you accelerate before he is even committed to the move then more fool him - you're doing nothing wrong in my view... If however, you tease him into pulling out and pulling parallel to you before rubbing his nose in it then that's reprehensible... and dangerous.
Personally unless I was in a hurry I'd let him past just for being balsy... and then see what he did with the empty road ahead. Obviously if you really wanted to pass him later on you could, but hey - give him a moment's glory. You were once that guy (well, I was anyway)...
Mind you - when driving a fiesta popular and passing WRX/Evo or similar you have to remember the phrase "if you want to dance with the devil, you had better be prepared to ****"
Personally unless I was in a hurry I'd let him past just for being balsy... and then see what he did with the empty road ahead. Obviously if you really wanted to pass him later on you could, but hey - give him a moment's glory. You were once that guy (well, I was anyway)...
Mind you - when driving a fiesta popular and passing WRX/Evo or similar you have to remember the phrase "if you want to dance with the devil, you had better be prepared to ****"
Edited by scoobmeister on Tuesday 20th March 00:11
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