Is this Forum wrongly titled?
Discussion
WhoseGeneration said:
Yet, in competition, we want to get the last ounce (or gramme!) of performance capability out of the vehicle.
Or should do.
On the road, driving at sensible speeds for the conditions, even allowing for some "stretching" of limits, do you not think most modern vehicles are well within their performance envelope?
Which may be the problem for some drivers, in that modern vehicles are so capable that many drivers can proceed at a speed beyond their own road skills, till a problem situation presents itself.
Certainly it's rare that you would find yourself anywhere near the performance limits of a vehicle on public roads in good conditions, but surely one aim of advanced driving is to minimise the demands placed on the vehicle for a given level of progress, which is basically the same problem as maximising progress within the performance capability of the vehicle. The same issues of smoothness, balance etc apply in both cases.
There is something wrong here, whether it’s the title or not, I’m not sure.
Certainly, the superiority of attitude of those organisations representing ‘advanced driving’, turning simple stuff into ‘black art’ is pretty damned stuffy.
Perhaps ‘High Performance Driving’ would be a better title and leave the ‘advanced drivers’ to their own black arts and other self-glorifying issues.
I’m sorry so many will see fast driving on the public road as automatically dangerous or irresponsible. In order that our civilisation doesn’t harm its self, laws are created using pretty low thresholds to keep things safe at critical times.
But they are low thresholds and there are plenty of the times when perfectly good roads are empty.
Driving fast cars fast is a real modern art as far as I’m concerned, and it’s still entirely possible to fully enjoy practising it and be encouraged to do so. The law as it stands covers the illegality of racing on the public roads, careless and dangerous extreme stuff. The difficulty comes it would appear from low performance people in low performance cars – completely entitled to be there and have their say of course. But likely, rather ignorant or unappreciative. And that is the majority of people who use the road that drive.
I don’t think driving safely at peak times is particularly ‘advanced’; driving hard and fast and WELL is a performance issue.
Certainly, the superiority of attitude of those organisations representing ‘advanced driving’, turning simple stuff into ‘black art’ is pretty damned stuffy.
Perhaps ‘High Performance Driving’ would be a better title and leave the ‘advanced drivers’ to their own black arts and other self-glorifying issues.
I’m sorry so many will see fast driving on the public road as automatically dangerous or irresponsible. In order that our civilisation doesn’t harm its self, laws are created using pretty low thresholds to keep things safe at critical times.
But they are low thresholds and there are plenty of the times when perfectly good roads are empty.
Driving fast cars fast is a real modern art as far as I’m concerned, and it’s still entirely possible to fully enjoy practising it and be encouraged to do so. The law as it stands covers the illegality of racing on the public roads, careless and dangerous extreme stuff. The difficulty comes it would appear from low performance people in low performance cars – completely entitled to be there and have their say of course. But likely, rather ignorant or unappreciative. And that is the majority of people who use the road that drive.
I don’t think driving safely at peak times is particularly ‘advanced’; driving hard and fast and WELL is a performance issue.
scoobmeister said:
I am also amazed by how few posts appear in this forum compared to the others... I guess it just goes to show how most are consumed with the vroom vroom, and shiney things than the skills required to keep it all in one piece.
There maybe a lot of lurkers, like me. I don't have much to offer in the way of input, but I read many of the posts with interest. It's even prompted me to buy "ROADCRAFT: the essential police driver's handbook". Maybe once I've read and digested that I'll have more to say.
GreenV8S said:
WhoseGeneration said:
Yet, in competition, we want to get the last ounce (or gramme!) of performance capability out of the vehicle.
Or should do.
On the road, driving at sensible speeds for the conditions, even allowing for some "stretching" of limits, do you not think most modern vehicles are well within their performance envelope?
Which may be the problem for some drivers, in that modern vehicles are so capable that many drivers can proceed at a speed beyond their own road skills, till a problem situation presents itself.
Certainly it's rare that you would find yourself anywhere near the performance limits of a vehicle on public roads in good conditions, but surely one aim of advanced driving is to minimise the demands placed on the vehicle for a given level of progress, which is basically the same problem as maximising progress within the performance capability of the vehicle. The same issues of smoothness, balance etc apply in both cases.
You are, of course, correct.
Perhaps the problem is that modern vehicles driven in this way provide little, and here I'm struggling for a phrase, but perhaps, feeling of involvement.
You see, I drive my Scooby in the IAM way most of the time and it's so easy.
I use the wife's Micra 160SR, a Supermini! and again, so easy.
Yet I am surrounded, on the roads, by Muppets who, in the main, seem not to have a clue about driving smoothly.
Perhaps this Forum might be better titled "How to survive on our roads".
Or, from that commercial course, "Drive And Survive".
2 seconds, observation and anticipation is all I ask from others on the roads.
It would seem I ask too much.
WhoseGeneration said:
GreenV8S said:
WhoseGeneration said:
...On the road, driving at sensible speeds for the conditions, even allowing for some "stretching" of limits, do you not think most modern vehicles are well within their performance envelope?...
Certainly it's rare that you would find yourself anywhere near the performance limits of a vehicle on public roads in good conditions....
You are, of course, correct.
It may be so obvious as to be universally ignored, but if you ever use wide open throttle you're asking for more performance than is available.
WilliBetz
I'm not a regular reader of this forum but I am quite involved in some of the "advanced driving" organisations and clubs in the UK from both the coaching and learning perspectives.
I very much agree with those who think that the forum could do with a new title - the term Advanced Driving carries with it a lot of negative associations. Some of these are deserved and some aren't but to my mind there would be few driving enthusiasts who would not readily embrace the methods, attitudes and outputs (safety, smoothness, progress, vehicle sympathy and so on) of the skillset that can be brought to bear on road driving.
If that involves a change of title, then I for one am willing to make that small compromise.
H.
I very much agree with those who think that the forum could do with a new title - the term Advanced Driving carries with it a lot of negative associations. Some of these are deserved and some aren't but to my mind there would be few driving enthusiasts who would not readily embrace the methods, attitudes and outputs (safety, smoothness, progress, vehicle sympathy and so on) of the skillset that can be brought to bear on road driving.
If that involves a change of title, then I for one am willing to make that small compromise.
H.
WhoseGeneration said:
willibetz said:
,
It may be so obvious as to be universally ignored, but if you ever use wide open throttle you're asking for more performance than is available.
WilliBetz
It may be so obvious as to be universally ignored, but if you ever use wide open throttle you're asking for more performance than is available.
WilliBetz
Here I'm now lost.
Or is this sarcasm, meaning those who do this are in the, "I've got it totally wrong zone"?
Not at all. Apologies if it came across that way.
When people talk about the dangers of exploring a car's limits on the road, they often ignore acceleration. However, if you use wide open throttle then you are operating at the limit of the car's performance envelope. Doing so can be safe, and many drivers do it routinely. The thinking doesn't extrapolate to braking or cornering, and doesn't mean that people who avoid using WOT are unsafe.
WilliBetz
LordGrover said:
It's even prompted me to buy "ROADCRAFT: the essential police driver's handbook". Maybe once I've read and digested that I'll have more to say.
You'll enjoy reading it for sure. I always produce my copy at the end of each Observed drive and ask the Associates if they have read it. If they haven't, I point out the benefits of doing so and draw their attention to the superb illustrations and explanations.
) willibetz said:
WhoseGeneration said:
willibetz said:
,
It may be so obvious as to be universally ignored, but if you ever use wide open throttle you're asking for more performance than is available.
WilliBetz
It may be so obvious as to be universally ignored, but if you ever use wide open throttle you're asking for more performance than is available.
WilliBetz
Here I'm now lost.
Or is this sarcasm, meaning those who do this are in the, "I've got it totally wrong zone"?
Not at all. Apologies if it came across that way.
When people talk about the dangers of exploring a car's limits on the road, they often ignore acceleration. However, if you use wide open throttle then you are operating at the limit of the car's performance envelope. Doing so can be safe, and many drivers do it routinely. The thinking doesn't extrapolate to braking or cornering, and doesn't mean that people who avoid using WOT are unsafe.
WilliBetz
Ah, I understand now and take your point.
A relevant point.
I think the forum, probably does tend to attract more Lurkers than posters. I'm generally more of a lurker, cause I'm mainly on here to learn more. I'm still very much a beginner.
It has prompted me to get a copy of roadcraft and think a lot more about my driving, which can only be a good thing.
WhoseGeneration - you are utterly right, I learnt to drive in a 11 year old Micra, no powersteering or ABS. I've just gotten a new Citroen C4 and while it isn't as powerful as some of the cars people on here have, it is very comforting and cosseting. Good in a way, as I found hanging on to the micra very painful (I have bad joints).
It has prompted me to get a copy of roadcraft and think a lot more about my driving, which can only be a good thing.
WhoseGeneration - you are utterly right, I learnt to drive in a 11 year old Micra, no powersteering or ABS. I've just gotten a new Citroen C4 and while it isn't as powerful as some of the cars people on here have, it is very comforting and cosseting. Good in a way, as I found hanging on to the micra very painful (I have bad joints).
I too am predominantly a lurker looking to learn. About the only times I have posted are precisely because competition driving does have relevance to safe road driving, e.g balance. Although your priorities are very different, many of the techniques are appropriate to both track and road. After all if your skills are such as to allow you to corner on a track 10mph faster than a numpty, if you drive at the same speed as a numpty on the road, you have more margin for the unexpected (over-simplistic I know but hopefully you get the point)
Which is long way of saying I agree with Reg that it could be good to bring together both sets of expertise
Which is long way of saying I agree with Reg that it could be good to bring together both sets of expertise
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