Advanced Driving - Can you get rid of the nerdy image?
Discussion
Following on from a couple of posts in another thread, I wanted to explore how advanced driving could shed it's nerdy image. This was triggered by the fact that, on here, opinion regarding advanced driving and "the system" seems polarised, which I thought was strange given the "keen driver" demographic of the site.
In response to an earlier post in this regard, it was suggested that it was the prescriptive nature of the system, and its focus on the minutiae of technique, that puts people off.
This didn't really ring true for me, as I don't think that it's the system that is at fault, as even those applying it can have different driving "styles". It seems to me that there must be right and wrong ways of teaching the system so as not to alienate the person trying to learn it (and all his like-minded mates who he will tell about his bad experiences).
In my view the view of advanced drivers as "nerds" illustrates a big part of the problem with how to market advanced driver training. I guess it's never going to be perceived as actively "cool" (unless it's advanced training in the kind of "how to hold an opposite lock slide whilst lighting a cigarette"
) but I think that the IAM/Rospa have to work really hard on shedding the "nerd driver" image.
I'm just not sure how this can be done though - any thoughts? Obviously, any amount of flashy marketing will be undone if the those teaching "on the ground" can't match up to the image, so the change has to be a fairly fundamental one. I appreciate that this may be unrealistic for various reasons (which I have seen discussed on here before) like the fact that lots of retired people run IAM/Rospa groups as they have more time to do so etc etc, but I think a discussion would be useful.
It'd also be great to hear from people who have been turned off advanced driving as to why that happened, as I'm sure some views on "how not to teach advanced driving" would be very much appreciated by the observers/instructors on here.
Cheers
Neal
In response to an earlier post in this regard, it was suggested that it was the prescriptive nature of the system, and its focus on the minutiae of technique, that puts people off.
This didn't really ring true for me, as I don't think that it's the system that is at fault, as even those applying it can have different driving "styles". It seems to me that there must be right and wrong ways of teaching the system so as not to alienate the person trying to learn it (and all his like-minded mates who he will tell about his bad experiences).
In my view the view of advanced drivers as "nerds" illustrates a big part of the problem with how to market advanced driver training. I guess it's never going to be perceived as actively "cool" (unless it's advanced training in the kind of "how to hold an opposite lock slide whilst lighting a cigarette"
) but I think that the IAM/Rospa have to work really hard on shedding the "nerd driver" image. I'm just not sure how this can be done though - any thoughts? Obviously, any amount of flashy marketing will be undone if the those teaching "on the ground" can't match up to the image, so the change has to be a fairly fundamental one. I appreciate that this may be unrealistic for various reasons (which I have seen discussed on here before) like the fact that lots of retired people run IAM/Rospa groups as they have more time to do so etc etc, but I think a discussion would be useful.
It'd also be great to hear from people who have been turned off advanced driving as to why that happened, as I'm sure some views on "how not to teach advanced driving" would be very much appreciated by the observers/instructors on here.
Cheers
Neal
I'd have a lot more respect if my observer of many years ago would have actually confessed the main reason for all of the strange car control practices being dictated were more about forcing us to slow down than about intrinsically safe car control.
Nobody wants learn how to walk around amsterdam's red light district with a bag over their head - and no amount of lecturing is going to convince them that the bag is the best way... they just want to learn how to enjoy the sights without an embarasing horn!
Nobody wants learn how to walk around amsterdam's red light district with a bag over their head - and no amount of lecturing is going to convince them that the bag is the best way... they just want to learn how to enjoy the sights without an embarasing horn!
There needs to be some capitulation from both sides of the motoring spectrum. The safety nazis need to realise that it's not a capital offence to enjoy driving, and that there are hundreds of thousands of motoring enthusiasts out there. In contrast, the enthusiastic element need to accept that for driving to continue being an enjoyable activity, then they need to take a bit more responsibility and improve their driving skills.
Look at what motoring programmes and magazines are popular. Of course, there is a small market for "practical mechanics" and "practical classics", but the highest selling magazines are those which concentrate on the high performance end of the car market. Top gear isn't popular because they test 1 litre hatchbacks - it's popular because they hoon round in cars most of us can only dream about.
Advanced driving, as a whole, needs to look at how to attract the more performance-minded drivers, without losing any of it's vital safety element.
How about combined track and road courses for those willing to pay a bit more? High speed car handling could be covered on-track, and then observations and planning could be covered on-road.
Just a thought.
Look at what motoring programmes and magazines are popular. Of course, there is a small market for "practical mechanics" and "practical classics", but the highest selling magazines are those which concentrate on the high performance end of the car market. Top gear isn't popular because they test 1 litre hatchbacks - it's popular because they hoon round in cars most of us can only dream about.
Advanced driving, as a whole, needs to look at how to attract the more performance-minded drivers, without losing any of it's vital safety element.
How about combined track and road courses for those willing to pay a bit more? High speed car handling could be covered on-track, and then observations and planning could be covered on-road.
Just a thought.
That would be a great idea... and I think the greatest moments will come when little johnny does a free lap only to find his grey haired system-driving espousing tutor has shaved a good few seconds off his time (but in my mind he overlaps his gear changes and braking to achieve this 
...
Only then might some of the younger drivers sit back and wonder if there is really something in all this technical driving talk...
I never forget a single seater experience I did at silverstone years ago - I had employed my very best efforts only to be lambasted for driving like I was in a forest, and some very stern words for spinning off... Having only driven competitvely on stage events, I was not accustomed to squeezing the best out of tarmac, all this smoothness stuff was new to me, but I managed to end the day with FTD :-) but more importantly, the realisation that people wih experience are usually telling you things for good reasons.
... Only then might some of the younger drivers sit back and wonder if there is really something in all this technical driving talk...
I never forget a single seater experience I did at silverstone years ago - I had employed my very best efforts only to be lambasted for driving like I was in a forest, and some very stern words for spinning off... Having only driven competitvely on stage events, I was not accustomed to squeezing the best out of tarmac, all this smoothness stuff was new to me, but I managed to end the day with FTD :-) but more importantly, the realisation that people wih experience are usually telling you things for good reasons.
Edited by scoobmeister on Friday 23 March 20:44
For years I've promised myself some advanced instruction but my initial enquiries with IAM put me off. On one occasion the conversation started with "You do know this course is not about learning to drive faster don't you?"
Patronising tw@t.
I'm all for encouraging more advanced tuition but I suspect that the spotty herbert who has shaved 'X' seconds off his lap time by listening to grandad will unfortunately transfer his new found skills to the road ie, add 20mph to his normal speeds. If you can get people interested and stop them doing that you're on to a winner.
*starts a book on how long before the pedants hijack this thread. 10-1 on the rustle of anoraks in two pages. 15-1 string backed gloves appear by Wednesday.............
Patronising tw@t.
I'm all for encouraging more advanced tuition but I suspect that the spotty herbert who has shaved 'X' seconds off his lap time by listening to grandad will unfortunately transfer his new found skills to the road ie, add 20mph to his normal speeds. If you can get people interested and stop them doing that you're on to a winner.
*starts a book on how long before the pedants hijack this thread. 10-1 on the rustle of anoraks in two pages. 15-1 string backed gloves appear by Wednesday.............
For what it's worth, I think that the best way to get people to drive more safely is to give them a better appreciation of the dangers. If you only improve people's perception of their own skill I think they are likely to use that extra perceived capability to drive at the same perceived risk level. Make them more aware of the risks and they may drive more safely, still at the same perceived risk level. Defensive driving is more important than skill. Most people ime believe they are reasonably safe - even the ones who do things that terrify me.
R_U_LOCAL said:
Advanced driving, as a whole, needs to look at how to attract the more performance-minded drivers, without losing any of it's vital safety element.
At the moment, advanced driving is a difficult and often costly skill to acquire - and one that most consider to offer no tangible reward. A tiered licencing system could change all that, offering more freedom to drivers who demonstrated a certain level of responsibility and ability?
R_U_LOCAL said:
How about combined track and road courses for those willing to pay a bit more? High speed car handling could be covered on-track, and then observations and planning could be covered on-road.
www.hpc.org.uk, perhaps?
WilliBetz
willibetz said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
How about combined track and road courses for those willing to pay a bit more? High speed car handling could be covered on-track, and then observations and planning could be covered on-road.
www.hpc.org.uk, perhaps?
WilliBetz
Indeed, these things already exist (all be it in limited numbers).
R_U_LOCAL said:
There needs to be some capitulation from both sides of the motoring spectrum. The safety nazis need to realise that it's not a capital offence to enjoy driving, and that there are hundreds of thousands of motoring enthusiasts out there. In contrast, the enthusiastic element need to accept that for driving to continue being an enjoyable activity, then they need to take a bit more responsibility and improve their driving skills.
Advanced driving, as a whole, needs to look at how to attract the more performance-minded drivers, without losing any of it's vital safety element.
Advanced driving, as a whole, needs to look at how to attract the more performance-minded drivers, without losing any of it's vital safety element.
We need some decent TV programmes to raise this a bit more in the public awareness, and if Top Gear can't do it, then another series of programmes needs to be launched. There would be enough room in the schedules if you were to get rid of only a small proportion of the existing rubbish.
At the moment, most people aren't interested in driving as a source of enjoyment. It's merely a useful means of getting about, but it could be an additional form of enjoyment for them - something else they can feel good at.
To begin with it needs to be much more high profile as a topic in the public mind.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Flintstone said:
For years I've promised myself some advanced instruction but my initial enquiries with IAM put me off. On one occasion the conversation started with "You do know this course is not about learning to drive faster don't you?"
Patronising tw@t.
I'm all for encouraging more advanced tuition but I suspect that the spotty herbert who has shaved 'X' seconds off his lap time by listening to grandad will unfortunately transfer his new found skills to the road ie, add 20mph to his normal speeds. If you can get people interested and stop them doing that you're on to a winner.
*starts a book on how long before the pedants hijack this thread. 10-1 on the rustle of anoraks in two pages. 15-1 string backed gloves appear by Wednesday.............
Patronising tw@t.
I'm all for encouraging more advanced tuition but I suspect that the spotty herbert who has shaved 'X' seconds off his lap time by listening to grandad will unfortunately transfer his new found skills to the road ie, add 20mph to his normal speeds. If you can get people interested and stop them doing that you're on to a winner.
*starts a book on how long before the pedants hijack this thread. 10-1 on the rustle of anoraks in two pages. 15-1 string backed gloves appear by Wednesday.............
really I thought from your comments on a certain item that you'd written the book - dig over !!!
anyway I passed iam and ropsa when I was 21, and back in 1988 it was nerdy then. I didn't stay to become an observer and I’d fully agree with your comments and the manner in which you can be treated. I haven’t been a member for 17/18 years. You don’t need to be a member to do something
At times i was made to feel really uncomfortable and nearly gave it up if it wasn't for the spirit of family competition then i might have, I’ve since gone on to do high performance road courses where there was liberal application of GLF and other techniques to which iam and rospa would have kittens
i've no idea how you make it less nerdy, i'm now teaching my kids through the u17 car club and showing them driving on the road, i haven't said how i drive is to a certain way or an “advanced” standard i just want them to think that driving in the style I do, which follows roadcraft as much as I can, is just normal everyday driving nothing flash or special but allows me to get to places quicker, anticipate incidents and predict dangerous situations through cross views and other observation techniques etc etc ohh and overtake
i'm not sure how drive outs are undertaken today, I guess little has changed from the late ‘80’s but i know as a cycling proficiency instructor, we call it something different now, and with my own kids through u17, if you make it fun and less prescriptive more goes in with less resentment, we still follow a syllabus and a certain way of riding/driving they just don’t know they’re doing it and it becomes “normal” and noone feels a nerd for signaling and looking over their shoulder and riding with both hands on the handle bars
perhaps the answer is make it fun and get them at an early age and allow a little freedom of expression/interpretation
and drop the word advanced
willibetz said:
At the moment, advanced driving is a difficult and often costly skill to acquire - and one that most consider to offer no tangible reward.
I think that it is made very easy to acquire the knowledge and skills to be an advanced driver. Our courses last seven weeks, and that includes five theory sessions and seven one or two hour drives. That isn't a great deal of time in the greater scheme of things. I think that making the courses intense makes them very effective. It keeps you focused and makes you practice. I got my £85 pounds course and test fee back the following year through a reduced insurance premium. The fact that it costs me £50 for a tank of petrol makes it seem pretty damn good value for money I think.
I always tell people that doing the advanced driver training has increased my enjoyment of driving enormously, has helped to reduce stress and has also made be a safer, more considerate driver (considerate in every sense of the word).
EmmaP said:
I always tell people that doing the advanced driver training has increased my enjoyment of driving enormously, has helped to reduce stress and has also made be a safer, more considerate driver (considerate in every sense of the word).
I get them to come for a ride. Many of them take a course after that.
Can you get rid of the Nerdy image?
In a word: No.
Not while people wish to percieve others as nerds. Look at the media image of scientists, for example: Men in white coats with brown rimmed spectacles with social skills so poor that they are incapable of speaking next to women. And it's tosh. Scientists come in the full range of humanity - same as "Advanced" drivers.
Do I care about the nerdy image? No. Should we care about the nerdy image? Maybe ... but the truth is that if you hit seventeen and think "Advanced Driving" is a Geek Show you are probably going to think that until something shocks you out of it - or never as the case may be.
If we want to save young lives (and its our youth that are dying for the most part) we need to scare the holy bejasus out of 'em from age fifteen onwards at school.
That's what I'd like to see the IAM /ROSPA doing. School visits, lectures and courses. Personally I'd show 'em hardcore images of the results of prangs - but I'll bet the little dears' parents would get all huffy-puffy about it. Still. That's what I think it will take.
After that the nerdy image doesn't matter. Does it?
In a word: No.
Not while people wish to percieve others as nerds. Look at the media image of scientists, for example: Men in white coats with brown rimmed spectacles with social skills so poor that they are incapable of speaking next to women. And it's tosh. Scientists come in the full range of humanity - same as "Advanced" drivers.
Do I care about the nerdy image? No. Should we care about the nerdy image? Maybe ... but the truth is that if you hit seventeen and think "Advanced Driving" is a Geek Show you are probably going to think that until something shocks you out of it - or never as the case may be.
If we want to save young lives (and its our youth that are dying for the most part) we need to scare the holy bejasus out of 'em from age fifteen onwards at school.
That's what I'd like to see the IAM /ROSPA doing. School visits, lectures and courses. Personally I'd show 'em hardcore images of the results of prangs - but I'll bet the little dears' parents would get all huffy-puffy about it. Still. That's what I think it will take.
After that the nerdy image doesn't matter. Does it?
7db said:
I get them to come for a ride. Many of them take a course after that.
That's a good idea. Our Chief Observer always says that to me. I did offer this to a couple of friends (PHers). A year or so on they still haven't taken up the offer. Nothing to do with me personally of course
EmmaP said:
7db said:
I get them to come for a ride. Many of them take a course after that.
That's a good idea. Our Chief Observer always says that to me. I did offer this to a couple of friends (PHers). A year or so on they still haven't taken up the offer. Nothing to do with me personally of course
Funny that - I often offer rides to lady friends, and they give me an odd look and make their excuses.
Can't work out why.
EmmaP said:
willibetz said:
At the moment, advanced driving is a difficult and often costly skill to acquire - and one that most consider to offer no tangible reward.
I think that it is made very easy to acquire the knowledge and skills to be an advanced driver. Our courses last seven weeks, and that includes five theory sessions and seven one or two hour drives. That isn't a great deal of time in the greater scheme of things. I think that making the courses intense makes them very effective. It keeps you focused and makes you practice. I got my £85 pounds course and test fee back the following year through a reduced insurance premium. The fact that it costs me £50 for a tank of petrol makes it seem pretty damn good value for money I think.
I always tell people that doing the advanced driver training has increased my enjoyment of driving enormously, has helped to reduce stress and has also made be a safer, more considerate driver (considerate in every sense of the word).
Fair points. And I can't really argue, having just done a test (£70 or so, every few years) for the sole purpose of qualifying for an insurance discount (£300 or thereabouts pa).
However, my comments were made in the context of acquiring and demonstrating the skills that might reasonably be expected of a driver looking to be granted limited or full exemption from certain restrictions (I'm thinking of 60 and 70 mph speed limits in particular). In that context, I maintain that the skills are neither cheap or easy to acquire.
I see the point in short, affordable, courses leading to advanced driving qualifications. But if your course takes seven weeks, have you looked at the standard of your candidates seven weeks after they pass the test? I'd be interested to know what proportion of your past passed candidates:
- habitually drive to a passing standard, and continually look to improve
- have the badge and attitude to match, but have reverted to their previous standard of driving...
WilliBetz
Edited by willibetz on Tuesday 27th March 12:07
Me, I'd jump at the chance... willibetz said:
...my comments were made in the context of acquiring and demonstrating the skills that might reasonably be expected of a driver looking to be granted limited or full exemption from certain restrictions (I'm thinking of 60 and 70 mph speed limits in particular). In that context, I maintain that the skills are neither cheap or easy to acquire.
Ah! I thought that you were talking about IAM Advanced Driving alone.
willibetz said:
...if your course takes seven weeks, have you looked at the standard of your candidates seven weeks after they pass the test? I'd be interested to know what proportion of your past passed candidates:
- habitually drive to a passing standard, and continually look to improve
- have the badge and attitude to match, but have reverted to their previous standard of driving...
- habitually drive to a passing standard, and continually look to improve
- have the badge and attitude to match, but have reverted to their previous standard of driving...
That is a really good point that you raise. I tell Associates that one of the main advantages of being an Observer is that it keeps you driving to the system and standard expected [hopefully] of advanced drivers and keeps you up to speed on Roadcraft.
One of my good friends did her advanced driver training about fifteen years ago. She is, at times, what can only be described as a danger and a liability. She ceratinly isn't driving to the system.
Edited by EmmaP on Tuesday 27th March 12:56
you'd have to change the whole external perception of IAM/Advanced driving/Rospa to get more people interested, then perhaps what happens when you get there would matter less (that's easier to change anyway).
So if you look at the image/rationale, what on earth does "advanced driving" do for you? How would you describe it? To use an awful american-ism, what is the "elevator pitch"?
You have 20 seconds in an elevator to convince someone that Advanced Driving is something they want to do.
So take the U17 car club mentioned above...
The pitch to a 13 yr old is "do you want to be able to drive your dad's car?" Easy...almost every 13 yr old will say yes.
Then when they get there they find not only is it great fun, but it is an exclusive club that focusses and prides itself on "be much better than the average driver when you get to 17".
So how's about we have a go on a new "pitch" for Advanced Driving for 17-25's?....
Anyone?
Bert
So if you look at the image/rationale, what on earth does "advanced driving" do for you? How would you describe it? To use an awful american-ism, what is the "elevator pitch"?
You have 20 seconds in an elevator to convince someone that Advanced Driving is something they want to do.
So take the U17 car club mentioned above...
The pitch to a 13 yr old is "do you want to be able to drive your dad's car?" Easy...almost every 13 yr old will say yes.
Then when they get there they find not only is it great fun, but it is an exclusive club that focusses and prides itself on "be much better than the average driver when you get to 17".
So how's about we have a go on a new "pitch" for Advanced Driving for 17-25's?....
Anyone?
Bert
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