Advanced Driving - Can you get rid of the nerdy image?
Discussion
bertbert said:
So how's about we have a go on a new "pitch" for Advanced Driving for 17-25's?....
Anyone?
Bert
The elevator pitch goes: Did you know that young people have the most fatal accidents of any age group. Shows picture of horrible death. Improve your chances of survival: Do an advanced driving course and live.
Because that's what its about. All that "we like driving club" bit that the oldsters (like ME!) think is so nice is so much bollox when you're 17. What matters is that you could die and kill your girlfriend and your mates - or you can not do that. What did you prefer? etc
willibetz said:
So you're saying that it would be best to play on young people's innate sense of vulnerability...
No idea how you get over their innate sense of invulnerability, willi. But one must try. "Safe" is not "cool" and dressing it up with a pretty bow on the top ain't going to fool the kids.
I reckon you get 'em young (as early as fourteen/fifteen) and you just keep pounding the message in. Act like a fool: you die. Act like a fool and don't die? Better lube up pretty boy...
Don said:
willibetz said:
So you're saying that it would be best to play on young people's innate sense of vulnerability...
No idea how you get over their innate sense of invulnerability, willi. But one must try. "Safe" is not "cool" and dressing it up with a pretty bow on the top ain't going to fool the kids.
I reckon you get 'em young (as early as fourteen/fifteen) and you just keep pounding the message in. Act like a fool: you die. Act like a fool and don't die? Better lube up pretty boy...
that's a good start, but the negative sell is a pretty hard thing. As a parent, I have learnt to my chagrin that it doesn't work.
Say to my 16yr old son, do you want to...have fun/be able to brag to your mates/get more girls/be smarter than your friends etc, he'll say and think "yep". Say to him "act like a fool and you die", he'll saying nothing and think f... you!
Sorry to disagree but no amount of pounding will make that message work.
Having said that, I am struggling to come up with an attraction!
Bert
I know from talking with a couple of young men that ride motorbikes that they do feel invincible. (I say men as it is principally men that are the most vulnerable and because I have never actually had this conversation with young women.) The same is undoubtedly true for young male drivers. They keep on pushing it and pushing it, but remain unscathed so persist in pushing it as far as they can. From what I can gather it is only when they accept the fact that if they continue like this they will die that they decide to slow down and change their attitude. Unfortuantely this acceptance usually comes with age or after a close shave. Having said that I was speaking with a 24 year old friend of mine the other week and he was recounting an incident when he really should have died. I cannot understand how he didn't in fact. He said that for some odd reason, that he was unable to explain, it still wouldn't put him off driving that fast again. I really don't think that there is anything that I could say or do to stop him.
bertbert said:
So how's about we have a go on a new "pitch" for Advanced Driving for 17-25's?....
Anyone?
Bert
Personally, I thought I'd look to see what this forum was about, having never heard of Advanced Driving a year or so ago and now it's one of my most-visited fora, I guess that's just because I was interested in making myself a better driver, but I didn't realise until I started reading about it...
AL666 said:
it's one of my most-visited fora, I guess that's just because I was interested in making myself a better driver, but I didn't realise until I started reading about it...
Great stuff! I find myself reading this forum more than others too because of the interesting debates and discussions. The contributions of vonhosen and R_U_Local are an education.
I think that the problem is that "advanced driving" in the sense of this forum requires a bit of maturity. It needs experience and self-restraint and these are things that can't really be taught.
I've been driving for about 10 years and it's only recently that I've realised how much I still have to learn, and how learing it could benefit me. I didn't care about economy, safe progress, other drivers not thinking that I was a muppet, or even safety for a good few years after passing my test aged 17.
I think that the best steps that could be made are:
1) Show how it can reduce the cost of motoring. Nothing influences like the wallet.
2) Show how it can improve your enjoyment of driving, through less stress and better progress.
3) Show how it's essential for the proper control of powerful cars on public roads.
I think that these can best be shown thorough example. If you had younger "assessors" and they were a bit more in tune with the minds of younger drivers, they'd get a positive response. I think that simply "do this or you'll die" is unlikely to foster a positive or lasting response from the "yoof".
I've been driving for about 10 years and it's only recently that I've realised how much I still have to learn, and how learing it could benefit me. I didn't care about economy, safe progress, other drivers not thinking that I was a muppet, or even safety for a good few years after passing my test aged 17.
I think that the best steps that could be made are:
1) Show how it can reduce the cost of motoring. Nothing influences like the wallet.
2) Show how it can improve your enjoyment of driving, through less stress and better progress.
3) Show how it's essential for the proper control of powerful cars on public roads.
I think that these can best be shown thorough example. If you had younger "assessors" and they were a bit more in tune with the minds of younger drivers, they'd get a positive response. I think that simply "do this or you'll die" is unlikely to foster a positive or lasting response from the "yoof".
I think we're coming to the nub of it.
"Advanced Driving". Does it save lives? I'm afraid I think the answer might be "no". The very act of deciding you want to do an IAM course is probably an indicator that you already have the maturity not to drive like a cock.
Most people who come on IAM courses drive reasonably well when they get there. Some drive in a numpticious manner but that's soon put right - and would their numptyism actually have caused an accident? Probably not.
Everybody leaves the course having enjoyed it, learned something and feels they are a better driver after - and all that's worthwhile. Statistics say they are less likely to have an accident.
But what was the reason they are less likely to have an accident? Maybe simply because they have a mature attitude about driving.
If that's the reason we shouldn't really be bothering about "Advanced Driving" at all. We should just be raising the age you are allowed to pass your driving test and drive by yourself to, say, 28.
"Advanced Driving". Does it save lives? I'm afraid I think the answer might be "no". The very act of deciding you want to do an IAM course is probably an indicator that you already have the maturity not to drive like a cock.
Most people who come on IAM courses drive reasonably well when they get there. Some drive in a numpticious manner but that's soon put right - and would their numptyism actually have caused an accident? Probably not.
Everybody leaves the course having enjoyed it, learned something and feels they are a better driver after - and all that's worthwhile. Statistics say they are less likely to have an accident.
But what was the reason they are less likely to have an accident? Maybe simply because they have a mature attitude about driving.
If that's the reason we shouldn't really be bothering about "Advanced Driving" at all. We should just be raising the age you are allowed to pass your driving test and drive by yourself to, say, 28.
I think it can be done, in fact I know it can be done. The U17 car club shows it. I have been driven by some astonishingly good under 17's as young as 13 who have definitely "got" the concept and a lot of the practice of what we refer to as "Advanced Driving".
I'm a rank amateur, so what do I know? But whenever the club is visitted by IAM/Rospa/Police drivers/examiners they are always amazed at what can be done.
Now of course the club members are still young, so they don't have the safety-net of maturity and fear when they actually get on the road.
However, there is no doubt that my 19 yr old daughter is a great driver (and she was when she passed her test at 17) having done the U17cc.
Sadly when she went along to IAM, she concluded they were a bunch of condescending idiots (of varying ages) as they told her she was "quite good for a young girl, and would make a good driver in time".
Bert
I'm a rank amateur, so what do I know? But whenever the club is visitted by IAM/Rospa/Police drivers/examiners they are always amazed at what can be done.
Now of course the club members are still young, so they don't have the safety-net of maturity and fear when they actually get on the road.
However, there is no doubt that my 19 yr old daughter is a great driver (and she was when she passed her test at 17) having done the U17cc.
Sadly when she went along to IAM, she concluded they were a bunch of condescending idiots (of varying ages) as they told her she was "quite good for a young girl, and would make a good driver in time".
Bert
bertbert said:
they told her she was "quite good for a young girl, and would make a good driver in time".
Wasn't that a compliment?
One of the things I've discovered about becoming an oldster is almost everything you say and virtually anything you do can be taken the "wrong way" if someone wants to... Going along to the IAM/ROSPA/HPC/any AD organisation for "validation" and finding out its not automatically given is often quite a difficult experience for people: and its nowt to do with age, btw, I've seen it happen to all ages and both sexes. The determined ones stay on...
Don said:
If that's the reason we shouldn't really be bothering about "Advanced Driving" at all. We should just be raising the age you are allowed to pass your driving test and drive by yourself to, say, 28.
I think that would be a little extreme really; It'd then just mean that by the time people were 28 they'd have no driving experience, and the older you get the less able you are to learn new things, so there's little chance that raising the driving-age limit would do much good. It'd be better if younger and inexperienced drivers were limited to what they can drive. For instance, maybe you wouldn't be able to drive a car with over 100bhp until you're 21 and had 3 years driving experience; And proper experience, not just having a driving licence for three years and not driving!
AL666 said:
Don said:
If that's the reason we shouldn't really be bothering about "Advanced Driving" at all. We should just be raising the age you are allowed to pass your driving test and drive by yourself to, say, 28.
I think that would be a little extreme really; It'd then just mean that by the time people were 28 they'd have no driving experience, and the older you get the less able you are to learn new things, so there's little chance that raising the driving-age limit would do much good. It'd be better if younger and inexperienced drivers were limited to what they can drive. For instance, maybe you wouldn't be able to drive a car with over 100bhp until you're 21 and had 3 years driving experience; And proper experience, not just having a driving licence for three years and not driving!
My tongue was firmly rammed into my cheek at that point let me assure you.
My point about trying to instil some maturity into drivers before they are allowed out on their own remains, though.
I reckon safety is a combination of maturity and expertise. Wanting to gain the expertise shows maturity, of course. The Under 17s club does sterling work in developing both things...
bertbert said:
Sadly when she went along to IAM, she concluded they were a bunch of condescending idiots (of varying ages) as they told her she was "quite good for a young girl, and would make a good driver in time".
Bert
Bert
Men of all ages makes comments like that about women of all ages. Many men are suprised that women can drive with skill or are indeed interested in cars or the craft of driving. Some members of our committee have had to be put straight by myself and our only other female observer when making sexist remarks. The fact is they don't realise that they are being sexist or making ill informed statements. They perceive women as timid, frightened of driving and intimidated by men.EmmaP said:
bertbert said:
Sadly when she went along to IAM, she concluded they were a bunch of condescending idiots (of varying ages) as they told her she was "quite good for a young girl, and would make a good driver in time".
Bert
Bert
Men of all ages makes comments like that about women of all ages. Many men are suprised that women can drive with skill or are indeed interested in cars or the craft of driving. Some members of our committee have had to be put straight by myself and our only other female observer when making sexist remarks. The fact is they don't realise that they are being sexist or making ill informed statements. They perceive women as timid, frightened of driving and intimidated by men.Luckily we don't get that in our group. Several lady Observers, several lady Committee members and our "Chairman" was a lady until she retired from the post.
A good thing I think.
Don said:
bertbert said:
they told her she was "quite good for a young girl, and would make a good driver in time".
Wasn't that a compliment?
One of the things I've discovered about becoming an oldster is almost everything you say and virtually anything you do can be taken the "wrong way" if someone wants to... Good point indeed, and from the observer's point of view it may well have been. However, that was the only feedback and given in a condescending way. What she wanted and needed (and was used to) was some detailed feeback, a good mix of constructive criticism and praise and a development path. This happened on two occasions and the cause was lost (same happened with me on 3 occasions and the cause was lost too)
As I said though, any problems there might be once there can be resolved (we probably went on a bad day).
The question remains of how to get them in!
Bert
My journey in the lift: Have you ever been the driver of a car in an accident? If Yes then " Was there anything you would have done differently, that could have eliminated or minimised the effects of the accident. Are you sure?"
If No then " If you were the driver of a car about to be involved in your own or someone else's accident are you sure you would know what to do to minimise or elimate the effects of the accident?
Answer: As skids are involved in 80% of accidents,and the ability to control the car in emergencies so important, why not try a skid course and practice using your existing skills, and try some new skills, in a simulated challenging environment.
P.S. Its also fun!
I admit I am biased (as I am a skid instructor) but if you could see, as I do, the way students go pale after they realise that they had crashed because it was primarily something they had done wrong (or not done right)and could not truthfully just be called an "accident"!
Maybe this is a frightener, a challenge to use skills they think they already have, but actually haven't got, a first step to realise how much there is to learn about car control and decision making when driving, as well as the need to take responsibility for their actions. That should be, in combination, some incentive to do something about improving their driving.
If No then " If you were the driver of a car about to be involved in your own or someone else's accident are you sure you would know what to do to minimise or elimate the effects of the accident?
Answer: As skids are involved in 80% of accidents,and the ability to control the car in emergencies so important, why not try a skid course and practice using your existing skills, and try some new skills, in a simulated challenging environment.
P.S. Its also fun!
I admit I am biased (as I am a skid instructor) but if you could see, as I do, the way students go pale after they realise that they had crashed because it was primarily something they had done wrong (or not done right)and could not truthfully just be called an "accident"!
Maybe this is a frightener, a challenge to use skills they think they already have, but actually haven't got, a first step to realise how much there is to learn about car control and decision making when driving, as well as the need to take responsibility for their actions. That should be, in combination, some incentive to do something about improving their driving.
Don said:
Luckily we don't get that in our group. Several lady Observers, several lady Committee members and our "Chairman" was a lady until she retired from the post.
They are all really lovely men actually. Two ladies left the group last year, both were on the Committee and one was an Observer. I guess that we'll have to encourage more women to become Observers.
I think to make "Advanced Driving" courses attractive they have to offer something tangible that is impossible (or difficult) for young people to obtain otherwise. Things like:
- opportunities to drive powerful sports cars in a safe (off road) environment at a young age.
- demonstration high performance drives (on and off road).
- skid pan training.
- guaranteed insurance discount for a successful pass.
So the elevator pitch then becomes nothing about the boring things like advanced driving courses, learning, how to save lives etc. , but rather "Would you like to drive a Ferrari around Bruntingthorpe? How about a lap beside The Stig in a Caterham? Fancy drifting around a skid pan? Want to be able to insure a Supra rather than your current Saxo 1.0?"
- opportunities to drive powerful sports cars in a safe (off road) environment at a young age.
- demonstration high performance drives (on and off road).
- skid pan training.
- guaranteed insurance discount for a successful pass.
So the elevator pitch then becomes nothing about the boring things like advanced driving courses, learning, how to save lives etc. , but rather "Would you like to drive a Ferrari around Bruntingthorpe? How about a lap beside The Stig in a Caterham? Fancy drifting around a skid pan? Want to be able to insure a Supra rather than your current Saxo 1.0?"
Edited by jeremyc on Wednesday 28th March 17:58
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff