Advanced Driving - Can you get rid of the nerdy image?
Discussion
jeremyc said:
I think to make "Advanced Driving" courses attractive they have to offer something tangible that is impossible (or difficult) for young people to obtain otherwise. Things like:
- opportunities to drive powerful sports cars in a safe (off road) environment at a young age.
- demonstration high performance drives (on and off road).
- skid pan training.
- guaranteed insurance discount for a successful pass.
So the elevator pitch then becomes nothing about the boring things like advanced driving courses, learning, how to save lives etc. , but rather "Would you like to drive a Ferrari around Bruntingthorpe? How about a lap beside The Stig in a Caterham? Fancy drifting around a skid pan? Want to be able to insure a Supra rather than your current Saxo 1.0?"
- opportunities to drive powerful sports cars in a safe (off road) environment at a young age.
- demonstration high performance drives (on and off road).
- skid pan training.
- guaranteed insurance discount for a successful pass.
So the elevator pitch then becomes nothing about the boring things like advanced driving courses, learning, how to save lives etc. , but rather "Would you like to drive a Ferrari around Bruntingthorpe? How about a lap beside The Stig in a Caterham? Fancy drifting around a skid pan? Want to be able to insure a Supra rather than your current Saxo 1.0?"
Edited by jeremyc on Wednesday 28th March 17:58
So to quote from the u17 cc webby (referring to grade X - the highest achievement in the club)
"Further skid pan instruction, written tests on mechanical knowledge and the Highway Code are included along with a number of drives and skill tests in a variety of vehicles.
A 2-part advanced driving test is the final barrier to Grade X. To mark success at this level the Member is presented with a cheque for £100 and their name is added to the Club's Grade X Shield.
There are also additional one-off events held throughout the year giving Members the opportunity to drive rally cars, go off-road in 4X4 vehicles, drive trucks and single seater racing cars as well as "occasional" Factory Visits. These events usually attract additional cost. In 1996 Club Members were driven around the MIRA proving circuit in a McLaren F1, and in 1997, in an Aston Martin Vantage. In 2002 a group of Club Members were invited to test out Ford's new Rallye Sport Trainer vehicle the day following its official press launch."
I have had club members driving my Radical the last 2 years...not bad for fun for a 16yr old! The absolute main point though is to turn out "advanced" young drivers.
Bert
Interesting discussion. I think I'm with R U Local on this - It's difficult to get rid of the image without approaching it in more of a "fun"/"cool" way (limit handling etc) and also making instructors/observers aware how they come across when giving tuition. One of the main complaints I've heard is people being put off by the observer, who was either patronising, came across as a safety nazi, or who "judged" the pupil's approach to driving.
The direction I'm coming from on this is that it worries me that, at least if this forum is anything to go by, advanced driving has alienated a substantial chunk of the people that would be expected to subscribe to it i.e. people with a love of performance cars and driving.
The direction I'm coming from on this is that it worries me that, at least if this forum is anything to go by, advanced driving has alienated a substantial chunk of the people that would be expected to subscribe to it i.e. people with a love of performance cars and driving.
The reason I have been put off joining the IAM up until now (and I know this sounds stupid) is fear of failure and the whole thought of someone ASSESSING your driving in a test again. Sounds stupid, and it is, but thats the way I am.
Maybe I would find it easier if the whole thing didn't have a "practice and then pass a test" style to it. More an 'improve your driving by help from more experienced drivers' approach would help me. And knowing that IAM examiners etc drive performance cars rather than Rovers would encourage me to think of them more like me and less like Rover-owning driving instructors.
I probably will join the IAM soon, although the other drawback is time. I know I'll probably get an earbashing for saying that ("this learning could save your life, make you a better driver, etc" and you have got the time blah blah), but I'm being honest. I found it hard enough finding time for my original lessons, so getting the time for more will be hard.
I'm not going to go into the whole 'speed limit' debate either, as I'm sure it has been played out too many times before on here.
Maybe I would find it easier if the whole thing didn't have a "practice and then pass a test" style to it. More an 'improve your driving by help from more experienced drivers' approach would help me. And knowing that IAM examiners etc drive performance cars rather than Rovers would encourage me to think of them more like me and less like Rover-owning driving instructors.
I probably will join the IAM soon, although the other drawback is time. I know I'll probably get an earbashing for saying that ("this learning could save your life, make you a better driver, etc" and you have got the time blah blah), but I'm being honest. I found it hard enough finding time for my original lessons, so getting the time for more will be hard.
I'm not going to go into the whole 'speed limit' debate either, as I'm sure it has been played out too many times before on here.
Edited by leon_t on Friday 6th April 18:20
Edited by leon_t on Friday 6th April 18:21
That's interesting Leon - so if the advanced driving clubs were going to gear themseves up to attract younger and more enthusiastic members, how would they have to pitch themselves? And what attracted you to this forum yourself - I read your introductory post, and you sound like you have a very similar enthusiasm about motoring to me at your age (and the propensity for getting things wrong, too 
)
I'd also be interested in which particular subjects on here interest you - what would you be looking to improve, which particular posts have caught your interest and what would you like to see more of?
) I'd also be interested in which particular subjects on here interest you - what would you be looking to improve, which particular posts have caught your interest and what would you like to see more of?
Hi Leon!
I'm a very busy person too and I am so glad that I made the time for the IAM course. It really has enriched my life and made me enjoy driving so much more.
On going out with Associates for the first time (we only go out with each one once during the course as we work on a rota basis) I always reassure them that I felt as though I was learning to drive again whilst following the Advanced driving programme. In a way you are as you are learning a new approach to driving and working towards irradicating some bad habits (sometimes) that have been adopted since passing the basic test. I also reassure them that I found the exam completely stress free and the examiner a really pleasant and interesting man who put me totally at ease from the word go. I also tell them that I was disappointed when the test came to an end as I enjoyed it so much.
It really is worth doing and you'll be pleasantly suprised by the attitude of many of the Observers.
I'm a very busy person too and I am so glad that I made the time for the IAM course. It really has enriched my life and made me enjoy driving so much more.
On going out with Associates for the first time (we only go out with each one once during the course as we work on a rota basis) I always reassure them that I felt as though I was learning to drive again whilst following the Advanced driving programme. In a way you are as you are learning a new approach to driving and working towards irradicating some bad habits (sometimes) that have been adopted since passing the basic test. I also reassure them that I found the exam completely stress free and the examiner a really pleasant and interesting man who put me totally at ease from the word go. I also tell them that I was disappointed when the test came to an end as I enjoyed it so much.
It really is worth doing and you'll be pleasantly suprised by the attitude of many of the Observers.
R U Local:
As far as being attracted to this forum, my main reason would be to learn how to enjoy myself driving while at the same time putting other people at risk less.
I was actually attracted by your posts!- its good to find extra guidance on driving properly and in an enjoyable way.
There's no denying that driving a car on its limit is addictive and enjoyable, and I think thats why most young lads push their cars so hard. The thing is that although the road isn't the right place to do this, track driving is just to expensive, so many tend to do it on road, usually in suburban roundabouts/ macdonalds carparks/ short dual-carriageways.
One thing I feel must push many people away is if I was to put up a topic explaining one of my mistakes and asking what I should have done differently, I would get many responses calling me irresponsible (or more likely a reckless ****!) There needs to be more understanding by those who have a high standard of driving that the people who ask these questions are looking for help and advice. Tearing everything they have done to pieces won't help. There needs to be CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and guidance, otherwise people will feel pushed away.
I don't think combining track and road training would work to draw younger drivers, because they won't pay attention to the road elements and the diffferences.
To attract younger people, it needs to be shown that making good, swift progress can be enjoyed. Sadly I haven't got all the answers to how to attract more. I've just discovered that my county council (Hampshire) offer a discount on doing PassPlus within the first 12 months post-test, though its too late for me. Sadly its just not publicised enough.
Personally, I would like to see everyone have to retake their test every 5 years, but that'll never happen. I'm sure I'd probably fail it first time if I had to, but I think it would probably help me, the same as I expect the IAM will do.
Is there anyone from Southampton area that is in the local IAM group on here btw?
As far as being attracted to this forum, my main reason would be to learn how to enjoy myself driving while at the same time putting other people at risk less.
I was actually attracted by your posts!- its good to find extra guidance on driving properly and in an enjoyable way.
There's no denying that driving a car on its limit is addictive and enjoyable, and I think thats why most young lads push their cars so hard. The thing is that although the road isn't the right place to do this, track driving is just to expensive, so many tend to do it on road, usually in suburban roundabouts/ macdonalds carparks/ short dual-carriageways.
One thing I feel must push many people away is if I was to put up a topic explaining one of my mistakes and asking what I should have done differently, I would get many responses calling me irresponsible (or more likely a reckless ****!) There needs to be more understanding by those who have a high standard of driving that the people who ask these questions are looking for help and advice. Tearing everything they have done to pieces won't help. There needs to be CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and guidance, otherwise people will feel pushed away.
I don't think combining track and road training would work to draw younger drivers, because they won't pay attention to the road elements and the diffferences.
To attract younger people, it needs to be shown that making good, swift progress can be enjoyed. Sadly I haven't got all the answers to how to attract more. I've just discovered that my county council (Hampshire) offer a discount on doing PassPlus within the first 12 months post-test, though its too late for me. Sadly its just not publicised enough.
Personally, I would like to see everyone have to retake their test every 5 years, but that'll never happen. I'm sure I'd probably fail it first time if I had to, but I think it would probably help me, the same as I expect the IAM will do.
Is there anyone from Southampton area that is in the local IAM group on here btw?
Thanks Leon. I was particularly interested in this part of your post...
I couldn't agree more. I posted up a little example of something that had gone wrong for me a few weeks ago - it was a minor thing and the error was mainly on the part of the other driver, but I'd mis-read the situation, and I was only using it as an example that, no matter how careful you are, sometimes other drivers can do unexpected things. I ended up getting a real slating for not indicating my intention to overtake, despite the fact that I knew it wouldn't have made any difference to the situation.
Obviously, I've got the nous and experience to fend off criticism like that, but I can see how a less experienced driver could be put off by other people's criticism.
With that in mind, I'll open a thread for people to post up situations where things have gone wrong, asking for, as you say, constructive criticism.
I'll make it clear that it's not an opportunity for calling or putting people down, but somewhere were people can ask for genuine advice.
leon_t said:
One thing I feel must push many people away is if I was to put up a topic explaining one of my mistakes and asking what I should have done differently, I would get many responses calling me irresponsible (or more likely a reckless ****!) There needs to be more understanding by those who have a high standard of driving that the people who ask these questions are looking for help and advice. Tearing everything they have done to pieces won't help. There needs to be CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and guidance, otherwise people will feel pushed away.
I couldn't agree more. I posted up a little example of something that had gone wrong for me a few weeks ago - it was a minor thing and the error was mainly on the part of the other driver, but I'd mis-read the situation, and I was only using it as an example that, no matter how careful you are, sometimes other drivers can do unexpected things. I ended up getting a real slating for not indicating my intention to overtake, despite the fact that I knew it wouldn't have made any difference to the situation.
Obviously, I've got the nous and experience to fend off criticism like that, but I can see how a less experienced driver could be put off by other people's criticism.
With that in mind, I'll open a thread for people to post up situations where things have gone wrong, asking for, as you say, constructive criticism.
I'll make it clear that it's not an opportunity for calling or putting people down, but somewhere were people can ask for genuine advice.
Another point. I've attached a link to the Southampton branch of the IAM (below). Now I don't wish to criticise too much, but the site was last updated on the 2nd of January. Has nothing happened worth posting on the site since then? As most younger people will more than likely use the Internet as a main source of information on these kind of things, this is hardly helpful.
www.sotonadvancedmotorists.org.uk/advancetest.htm
It also seems very formal. I mean, to quote the site: "Observed drives are conducted on the first Sunday in each month."
Does this mean they would only do one Observer/Associate drive a month? And only on the first Sunday in a month (incidentally, I couldn't do it then)?
I'll obviously need to find out more first, but it hardly cries out "come and join us, we'll help you to drive more safely and enjoy it at the same time".
Was interesting with several experiences I had out driving country roads last night. At one point I pulled over because a lad was tailing me too close (I'll admit I was exceeding the National Speed limit a little at the time on a fairly straight and open road, too), and that didn't suprise me, though I the past I probably would have put my foot down instead.
But I also came across a guy on a Ducati Multistrada who road in a very smooth, safe way on a well known road (A32) and impressed me with the way he was riding, while a bloke in a Subaru I followed didn't slow much from high sped when we entered a 30 limit before passing a car just before traffic lights for a crossroads and then jumping a red light when it changed right in front of him.
Just reminded me you shouldn't judge or categorise people just by what they're riding/driving.
www.sotonadvancedmotorists.org.uk/advancetest.htm
It also seems very formal. I mean, to quote the site: "Observed drives are conducted on the first Sunday in each month."
Does this mean they would only do one Observer/Associate drive a month? And only on the first Sunday in a month (incidentally, I couldn't do it then)?
I'll obviously need to find out more first, but it hardly cries out "come and join us, we'll help you to drive more safely and enjoy it at the same time".
Was interesting with several experiences I had out driving country roads last night. At one point I pulled over because a lad was tailing me too close (I'll admit I was exceeding the National Speed limit a little at the time on a fairly straight and open road, too), and that didn't suprise me, though I the past I probably would have put my foot down instead.
But I also came across a guy on a Ducati Multistrada who road in a very smooth, safe way on a well known road (A32) and impressed me with the way he was riding, while a bloke in a Subaru I followed didn't slow much from high sped when we entered a 30 limit before passing a car just before traffic lights for a crossroads and then jumping a red light when it changed right in front of him.
Just reminded me you shouldn't judge or categorise people just by what they're riding/driving.
Right Leon, after your previous post, Dr Local's driving clinic is now open and accepting new patients!
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=376716&f=154&h=0
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=376716&f=154&h=0
R_U_LOCAL said:
Thanks Leon. I was particularly interested in this part of your post...
I couldn't agree more. I posted up a little example of something that had gone wrong for me a few weeks ago - it was a minor thing and the error was mainly on the part of the other driver, but I'd mis-read the situation, and I was only using it as an example that, no matter how careful you are, sometimes other drivers can do unexpected things. I ended up getting a real slating for not indicating my intention to overtake, despite the fact that I knew it wouldn't have made any difference to the situation.
Obviously, I've got the nous and experience to fend off criticism like that, but I can see how a less experienced driver could be put off by other people's criticism.
With that in mind, I'll open a thread for people to post up situations where things have gone wrong, asking for, as you say, constructive criticism.
I'll make it clear that it's not an opportunity for calling or putting people down, but somewhere were people can ask for genuine advice.
leon_t said:
One thing I feel must push many people away is if I was to put up a topic explaining one of my mistakes and asking what I should have done differently, I would get many responses calling me irresponsible (or more likely a reckless ****!) There needs to be more understanding by those who have a high standard of driving that the people who ask these questions are looking for help and advice. Tearing everything they have done to pieces won't help. There needs to be CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and guidance, otherwise people will feel pushed away.
I couldn't agree more. I posted up a little example of something that had gone wrong for me a few weeks ago - it was a minor thing and the error was mainly on the part of the other driver, but I'd mis-read the situation, and I was only using it as an example that, no matter how careful you are, sometimes other drivers can do unexpected things. I ended up getting a real slating for not indicating my intention to overtake, despite the fact that I knew it wouldn't have made any difference to the situation.
Obviously, I've got the nous and experience to fend off criticism like that, but I can see how a less experienced driver could be put off by other people's criticism.
With that in mind, I'll open a thread for people to post up situations where things have gone wrong, asking for, as you say, constructive criticism.
I'll make it clear that it's not an opportunity for calling or putting people down, but somewhere were people can ask for genuine advice.
A point I'll make here:
Criticism when coaching anything needs to be accurate. It helps to be told exactly what you are doing wrong and exactly what to do to make it right. Its nice to be able to couch the criticism in a constructive manner - (i.e. try doing this the right way - does that feel better? etc) but what really makes it useful is that it is direct, to the point, and above all accurate.
Someone providing the coaching will do their level best (I'm sure) to be positive and encouraging. In return the student needs to respect their coach and accept that at least at this particular thing "coach" knows more than they do about the subject.
Some people may feel "pushed away" by criticism of any kind constructive or otherwise when its being offered if its something they think they should be good at. An example of such a something is driving. It takes real strength of character to take criticism about something you've been doing for twenty years...
A comparison would be if your wife said after twenty years of marriage "Dear. You know - you could be sooo much better in bed with a little training. Why don't we go and see a sex therapist?"
If you think you could take that on the chin and not feel uncomfortable then you aren't HUMAN!
So... all I am saying is ... people need to come to the IAM/ROSPA/HPC/RideDrive etc etc after a little personal reflection and ready to take some pretty tough truths they'd really prefer not to hear - in some ways. Opening yourself up to learning WILL provide the reward. But it isn't easy. Its probably as hard as going to Alcholics Anonymous for the first time... (not that I have!).
Don said:
So... all I am saying is ... people need to come to the IAM/ROSPA/HPC/RideDrive etc etc after a little personal reflection and ready to take some pretty tough truths they'd really prefer not to hear - in some ways. Opening yourself up to learning WILL provide the reward. But it isn't easy. Its probably as hard as going to Alcholics Anonymous for the first time... (not that I have!).
People need to be encouraged to think about their own driving, and to reflect a little. Only then will they actually recognise that they need extra training. Its only because recently I've been thinking about my own driving and how to improve it that I'm on this forum, asking questions. The reason I have to ask questions is because I don't know, I've only been driving a little under two years and there's a lot to learn and improve on. So yes, criticism is a vital point of learning, but the way it is given can have a subconscious effect. If given in too strong a manner, it requires a lot of humility to accept.
For example, I'll never forget my driving instructor screaming at me because I accelerated had past a stopped bus, without knowing if anyone was about to walk out behind it. Yes, I remember it to this day, and I don't think I've ever done it again, but at the time I was left shaking and very white, in fact I just couldn't carry on my lesson. OK, so I'm a pansy,
but you get the point.leon_t said:
And knowing that IAM examiners etc drive performance cars rather than Rovers would encourage me to think of them more like me and less like Rover-owning driving instructors.
Hi Leon. Would it help to know that our local IAM examiner has a 911 C4s and used to race bikes?
I was also enormously enthusiastic and rather accident prone in my early driving years. I was lucky enough to be able to afford what was then the High Performance Course - great image, but in fact you started by learning just the same stuff you would be taught by the IAM.
Sadly, you won't get the IAM course free unless your local group runs a special promotion - standard price for under 25's is £75 - but it is amazing value, because coaching is given by volunteer 'observers'. It is cheaper than Pass Plus, and takes you way beyond that. Absurdly, though, unlike Pass Plus it will not necessarily make your insurance any cheaper, other than by improving your chances of building up a maximum No Claims bonus.
Hi everyone,
I'd like to add a few thoughts ...
Move away from the focus one testing. Most people dread their driving test, let alone the thought of doing an advanced test. It's a wonder we have so many people who are advanced drivers in the first place. I would shift the focus onto learning and development.
Solve people's problems. Adults learn best when solving a problem of immediate relevance to them. For example, new riders aren't bad at taking post-test tuition, even if it's just a BikeSafe day. This is because machine control is an immediate problem of direct relevance to many inexperienced riders. Likewise, a performance-minded driver might be more interested in a 'Cornering & Overtaking' course, compared to a generic "advanced" course (whatever that is).
Be very clear about what advanced driving is. What are the learning objectives? "Be a better driver" is too vague a concept to interest most people. "Be more confident driving country lanes at a night," for example, would be a specific course the IAM/RoADAR could offer.
Drop the moralising tone! For example, the two Skills for Life books are apallingly patronising and moralising in sections. They are also incredibly out of date (e.g. the motorcycle one still recommends wax jackets
!)
Frankly, as a marketing professional, I think we're lucky to have any advanced drivers and riders at all. The IAM and RoADAR need to wake up and move with the times of both modern marketing and adult learning. (To be fair, the new IAM strategy is moving in the right direction, but RoSPA is wide of the mark.)
I'd like to add a few thoughts ...
Move away from the focus one testing. Most people dread their driving test, let alone the thought of doing an advanced test. It's a wonder we have so many people who are advanced drivers in the first place. I would shift the focus onto learning and development.
Solve people's problems. Adults learn best when solving a problem of immediate relevance to them. For example, new riders aren't bad at taking post-test tuition, even if it's just a BikeSafe day. This is because machine control is an immediate problem of direct relevance to many inexperienced riders. Likewise, a performance-minded driver might be more interested in a 'Cornering & Overtaking' course, compared to a generic "advanced" course (whatever that is).
Be very clear about what advanced driving is. What are the learning objectives? "Be a better driver" is too vague a concept to interest most people. "Be more confident driving country lanes at a night," for example, would be a specific course the IAM/RoADAR could offer.
Drop the moralising tone! For example, the two Skills for Life books are apallingly patronising and moralising in sections. They are also incredibly out of date (e.g. the motorcycle one still recommends wax jackets
!) Frankly, as a marketing professional, I think we're lucky to have any advanced drivers and riders at all. The IAM and RoADAR need to wake up and move with the times of both modern marketing and adult learning. (To be fair, the new IAM strategy is moving in the right direction, but RoSPA is wide of the mark.)
waremark said:
leon_t said:
And knowing that IAM examiners etc drive performance cars rather than Rovers would encourage me to think of them more like me and less like Rover-owning driving instructors.
Hi Leon. Would it help to know that our local IAM examiner has a 911 C4s and used to race bikes?
I was also enormously enthusiastic and rather accident prone in my early driving years. I was lucky enough to be able to afford what was then the High Performance Course - great image, but in fact you started by learning just the same stuff you would be taught by the IAM.
I drive a Porsche. And a TVR. Do track days as often as I can. At My IAM group there are loads of Performance Car enthusiasts. From what I can tell its the same all over the IAM. It tends to be at least fifty percent petrolheads who stick with the Group and remain Observers.
Which makes them all the more likely to be pretty hard when it comes to critiquing driving...they hold themselves to high standards (higher than necessary to pass an IAM test - that's for sure)...and want Associates to achieve the same.
If someone joins our Group and tells me they're a petrolhead...I'm going to positively expect them to work doubly hard to achieve the highest standard they possibly can...and to be fair this is my experience as well - petrolheads do tend to put in the practice and be ambitious in improving their driving.
This is quite different to the many other sorts of driver who come to the IAM - e.g. Widows suddenly needing to drive again after forty years, school run Mums who feel the weight of responsibility driving their own and others kids around, new Dads feeling the same etc etc
Sat watching cars on the motorway near me yesterday, thinking about speed limits and rules and those kind of things.
I think for the first time in my life I actually am starting to see the faster 'performance cars' as being irrelevant and unnecessary. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have one (everyone has the right to choose what car they want), but I started thinking that if everyone really should be applying speed limits in ALL circumstances, I don't need a quick car. My little Punto will easily pull fairly quickly to the NSL and beyond in third gear, so of what benefit would having more power be? Overtaking would be quicker, yes, but only from low speed up to 60 or 70. Beyond that?!?
Its a bit confusing as I've always loved performance cars and the like, but I just feel a little disillusioned with driving for pleasure altogether. Many of the local country roads have been downgraded from NSL to 50 or 40, and it just feels like if I'm going to conform to laws at every moment of driving, I'm losing the opportunity to make fair, safe and valid decisions for myself. To go further, why not restrict all cars (bar emergency vehicles) to 70 or 80?
I don't think it'll put me off learning more about becoming an advanced driver, (my copy of Roadcraft has just been ordered) but its just depressed me a little.
I think for the first time in my life I actually am starting to see the faster 'performance cars' as being irrelevant and unnecessary. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have one (everyone has the right to choose what car they want), but I started thinking that if everyone really should be applying speed limits in ALL circumstances, I don't need a quick car. My little Punto will easily pull fairly quickly to the NSL and beyond in third gear, so of what benefit would having more power be? Overtaking would be quicker, yes, but only from low speed up to 60 or 70. Beyond that?!?
Its a bit confusing as I've always loved performance cars and the like, but I just feel a little disillusioned with driving for pleasure altogether. Many of the local country roads have been downgraded from NSL to 50 or 40, and it just feels like if I'm going to conform to laws at every moment of driving, I'm losing the opportunity to make fair, safe and valid decisions for myself. To go further, why not restrict all cars (bar emergency vehicles) to 70 or 80?
I don't think it'll put me off learning more about becoming an advanced driver, (my copy of Roadcraft has just been ordered) but its just depressed me a little.
leon_t said:
Sat watching cars on the motorway near me yesterday, thinking about speed limits and rules and those kind of things.
I think for the first time in my life I actually am starting to see the faster 'performance cars' as being irrelevant and unnecessary. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have one (everyone has the right to choose what car they want), but I started thinking that if everyone really should be applying speed limits in ALL circumstances, I don't need a quick car. My little Punto will easily pull fairly quickly to the NSL and beyond in third gear, so of what benefit would having more power be? Overtaking would be quicker, yes, but only from low speed up to 60 or 70. Beyond that?!?
Its a bit confusing as I've always loved performance cars and the like, but I just feel a little disillusioned with driving for pleasure altogether. Many of the local country roads have been downgraded from NSL to 50 or 40, and it just feels like if I'm going to conform to laws at every moment of driving, I'm losing the opportunity to make fair, safe and valid decisions for myself. To go further, why not restrict all cars (bar emergency vehicles) to 70 or 80?
I don't think it'll put me off learning more about becoming an advanced driver, (my copy of Roadcraft has just been ordered) but its just depressed me a little.
I think for the first time in my life I actually am starting to see the faster 'performance cars' as being irrelevant and unnecessary. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have one (everyone has the right to choose what car they want), but I started thinking that if everyone really should be applying speed limits in ALL circumstances, I don't need a quick car. My little Punto will easily pull fairly quickly to the NSL and beyond in third gear, so of what benefit would having more power be? Overtaking would be quicker, yes, but only from low speed up to 60 or 70. Beyond that?!?
Its a bit confusing as I've always loved performance cars and the like, but I just feel a little disillusioned with driving for pleasure altogether. Many of the local country roads have been downgraded from NSL to 50 or 40, and it just feels like if I'm going to conform to laws at every moment of driving, I'm losing the opportunity to make fair, safe and valid decisions for myself. To go further, why not restrict all cars (bar emergency vehicles) to 70 or 80?
I don't think it'll put me off learning more about becoming an advanced driver, (my copy of Roadcraft has just been ordered) but its just depressed me a little.
Two comments on the fun in driving:
1) Taking satisfaction from excellent roadcraft can put back some of the enjoyment in driving that low speed limits and congestion take away.
2) The same satisfaction from excellent roadcraft can be obtained driving a Porsche, TVR, Vauxhall Vectra, Fiat Punto, etc. The "High Performance" in the "High Performance Club" refers famously to the performance of the driver - not the car.
A comment on a performance car:
Yes speed limits and congestion mean that the full performance envelope of the vehicle can rarely be exploited safely. Remember, though, that a modern diesel Astra performs significantly better in both handling and sheer power than many supercars of yesteryear. So its not just the "performance" cars that cannot be exploited to the full. This is why track days have become popular - a chance to use your car to its potential (or your own!).
Despite these things what makes a car nice to drive is that it responds well to the control inputs of the driver. i.e. when the driver wants it to turn - it turns; when the driver wants it to stop - it stops; and when the driver wants it to go - it flies. A responsive car is fun to drive still - even when obeying the speed limits.
So if you want a performance car one day - get one - you'll love it. But whilst you are waiting - remember that a huge amount of satisfaction can be obtained by getting the best out of oneself and one's vehicle...both on the road...and for the hell of it out on the track...
I know that enjoyment is primarily derived from responsiveness... I did own a 205 GTi, and enjoyed it just as much at 5/10th than 8/10th's.
I recognise that even "normal" newer cars have the ability to outperform older performance legends. But it starts to make me wonder: if car limits have improved so much more, why are we seeing reductions in speed limits on counrty roads which have had very little in the way of traffic increase and no increase in buildings or entrances?
There's no denying that a high performance car can be pleasurable, although I think one problem is that it requires a very high degree of self-restraint to drive within specified limits (more than I would trust myself with at this point in life).
As far as track driving goes, I just can't physically afford it. Its costly enough for me trying to keep my current car in a roadworthy condition. If I could fund it, I don't think I would feel tempted to drive as fast on the road, although I fear I would find it hard to keep road and track driving skills separate, as they should be totally different (in so far as that you shouldn't really be on the grip limits of your car on a public road, apparently).
I recognise that even "normal" newer cars have the ability to outperform older performance legends. But it starts to make me wonder: if car limits have improved so much more, why are we seeing reductions in speed limits on counrty roads which have had very little in the way of traffic increase and no increase in buildings or entrances?
There's no denying that a high performance car can be pleasurable, although I think one problem is that it requires a very high degree of self-restraint to drive within specified limits (more than I would trust myself with at this point in life).
As far as track driving goes, I just can't physically afford it. Its costly enough for me trying to keep my current car in a roadworthy condition. If I could fund it, I don't think I would feel tempted to drive as fast on the road, although I fear I would find it hard to keep road and track driving skills separate, as they should be totally different (in so far as that you shouldn't really be on the grip limits of your car on a public road, apparently).
Just a few thoughts on this thread.
When I was observing for my local IAM group the only associates we got were interested in improving their skills so it is preaching to the converted. To change perceptions to us 'wheel shufflers' as Mr Clarkson refers to us one route would be to find out how many advanced drivers of all types compete or have competed in motorsport. I suspect it is quite a few. It would surprise many that the two far from being incompatible actually complement each other, smoothness, observation, forward planning and car sympathy to name a few.
Encourage folk to join local motor clubs running grass autotests or similar, driving against the clock on greasy grass doesn't half sharpen up car control and emphasise smoothness. I nearly always get beaten by Mr Smooth in his Morgan 4/4 because I get too excited and can't keep my +8 in a straight line.
Another way I suspect is to try and shift the emphasis from the mechanics of the system to the notion of using ones intelligence and thinking about what is going on round what you are doing and why. That way you change the mind set and hopefully eliminate the few that pass their advanced test and immediately forget it all.
When I was observing for my local IAM group the only associates we got were interested in improving their skills so it is preaching to the converted. To change perceptions to us 'wheel shufflers' as Mr Clarkson refers to us one route would be to find out how many advanced drivers of all types compete or have competed in motorsport. I suspect it is quite a few. It would surprise many that the two far from being incompatible actually complement each other, smoothness, observation, forward planning and car sympathy to name a few.
Encourage folk to join local motor clubs running grass autotests or similar, driving against the clock on greasy grass doesn't half sharpen up car control and emphasise smoothness. I nearly always get beaten by Mr Smooth in his Morgan 4/4 because I get too excited and can't keep my +8 in a straight line.
Another way I suspect is to try and shift the emphasis from the mechanics of the system to the notion of using ones intelligence and thinking about what is going on round what you are doing and why. That way you change the mind set and hopefully eliminate the few that pass their advanced test and immediately forget it all.
sdws said:
To change perceptions to us 'wheel shufflers' as Mr Clarkson refers to us one route would be to find out how many advanced drivers of all types compete or have competed in motorsport. I suspect it is quite a few.
Including the current President of the IAM, a certain Nigel Mansell ...
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