Fast road driving and how you hold the wheel...
Discussion
Hi All,
What's the recommended view on this? I know on the track you're supposed to have your hands at quarter to three and keep them in the same place on the wheel through cornering. Presumeably this is also good practice when on the road, but what's the best thing to do when you're on a tight bend where you need to put on more than the half turn or so of opposite lock that you can put on without moving your hands on the wheel?
What's the recommended view on this? I know on the track you're supposed to have your hands at quarter to three and keep them in the same place on the wheel through cornering. Presumeably this is also good practice when on the road, but what's the best thing to do when you're on a tight bend where you need to put on more than the half turn or so of opposite lock that you can put on without moving your hands on the wheel?
Interested to hear what people think.
Road cars unfortunately generally have lower geared steering.
So opposite lock stuff normally means you're going to have to get busy.
Good road cars actually have a lot of self-correction (strong caster) built in which opposite-locks for you automatically, 2 wd in particular.
But you need to get it off again, before the car goes in that direction!
But I'd suggest lots of arms and elbows, and bruised thumbs. Much less tidy in general than circuit cars and driving where you'd be so much more accurate.
Road cars unfortunately generally have lower geared steering.
So opposite lock stuff normally means you're going to have to get busy.
Good road cars actually have a lot of self-correction (strong caster) built in which opposite-locks for you automatically, 2 wd in particular.
But you need to get it off again, before the car goes in that direction!
But I'd suggest lots of arms and elbows, and bruised thumbs. Much less tidy in general than circuit cars and driving where you'd be so much more accurate.
What I do is keep my hands at a quarter to three most of the time but if I am coming upto a sharper bend, then in preparation I do the following:
Left Hander:
Move left hand clockwise around the wheel (say, 11 o'clock) and right hand to 5 o'clock, then as you go around the bend you dont have to feed the wheel as you have already prepared your hands and once going around the corner you're more within your normal limits of movement. (quarter to 3 style)
Right Hander:
Same as above but right hand at 1 o'clock and left hand at 7 o'clock.
The 'times' can be adjusted for each specific corner obviously and once out of the corner either go back to quarter to 3 with a straight wheel or prepare hands for the next corner.
I think I remember reading this was the way to do it also, so I guess I taught myself
Let me know what you think.
Cheers
Tom
Left Hander:
Move left hand clockwise around the wheel (say, 11 o'clock) and right hand to 5 o'clock, then as you go around the bend you dont have to feed the wheel as you have already prepared your hands and once going around the corner you're more within your normal limits of movement. (quarter to 3 style)
Right Hander:
Same as above but right hand at 1 o'clock and left hand at 7 o'clock.
The 'times' can be adjusted for each specific corner obviously and once out of the corner either go back to quarter to 3 with a straight wheel or prepare hands for the next corner.
I think I remember reading this was the way to do it also, so I guess I taught myself
Let me know what you think.
Cheers
Tom
Hi Tom
I think in most realworld situations that your technique would be fine. However at higher speeds and on slippery surfaces it's important that you know where "straight ahead" is. This is one reason why racing drivers keep the quarter past nine positioning, in the event of the car sliding then it's very easy to judge where the neutral or zero steering postion is and you can react naturally and very quickly to either straighten the wheel or apply opposite lock. Your method in this sort of situation is sort of the worst of both worlds. You'd still have to lift either left or right hand to apply more than a quarter turn of lock and you wouldn't really know how much lock is on the wheel and how far it is from straight ahead without looking at the wheel - something you don't have time to do when you need it.
There is one limit handling instructor that I've been to that suggests keeping quarter past nine up until the point where you are about to run out of crossed arms, at which point you lift the hand that is behind your arm and put it back on top so to speak, ready to give another lot of lock. It's a strange technique and obviously not one advocated by most advanced driving organisations but it allows quick and full movement of the wheel and as importantly a reversal of the technique allows you to quickly take off lock and get back to a neutral steer situation. Having seen the instructor use this technique to set sprint records in a V8 Caterham style car it sure does work!
I think in most realworld situations that your technique would be fine. However at higher speeds and on slippery surfaces it's important that you know where "straight ahead" is. This is one reason why racing drivers keep the quarter past nine positioning, in the event of the car sliding then it's very easy to judge where the neutral or zero steering postion is and you can react naturally and very quickly to either straighten the wheel or apply opposite lock. Your method in this sort of situation is sort of the worst of both worlds. You'd still have to lift either left or right hand to apply more than a quarter turn of lock and you wouldn't really know how much lock is on the wheel and how far it is from straight ahead without looking at the wheel - something you don't have time to do when you need it.
There is one limit handling instructor that I've been to that suggests keeping quarter past nine up until the point where you are about to run out of crossed arms, at which point you lift the hand that is behind your arm and put it back on top so to speak, ready to give another lot of lock. It's a strange technique and obviously not one advocated by most advanced driving organisations but it allows quick and full movement of the wheel and as importantly a reversal of the technique allows you to quickly take off lock and get back to a neutral steer situation. Having seen the instructor use this technique to set sprint records in a V8 Caterham style car it sure does work!
In the rwd car I'll try to ensure that I'm in a position to take lock off very quickly to cope with sudden oversteer, in the fwd car I'll be more concerned about the possibility of understeer.
Hence in the rwd case I'm more likely to use rotational steering and allow my arms to cross rather than shuffle steer, but reposition my hands if necessary to let me get through the corner without running out of lock. It helps that there's no airbag in this car.
In the fwd case I'll shuffle steer as necessary to get enough lock on without crossing arms, that means I can get another half turn or so as quickly as I can think about it.
Once the sh!t/fan thing happens this becomes academic and you just turn the wheel any way that works, the point of the normal cornering position is to keep yourself in a position where you can do that.
As a matter of curiosity, I've found that once things get really exciting I steer almost exclusively with my right hand, with the left hand reaching under/over it (depending on direction) to uncross my arms when I run out of elbows.
Hence in the rwd case I'm more likely to use rotational steering and allow my arms to cross rather than shuffle steer, but reposition my hands if necessary to let me get through the corner without running out of lock. It helps that there's no airbag in this car.
In the fwd case I'll shuffle steer as necessary to get enough lock on without crossing arms, that means I can get another half turn or so as quickly as I can think about it.
Once the sh!t/fan thing happens this becomes academic and you just turn the wheel any way that works, the point of the normal cornering position is to keep yourself in a position where you can do that.
As a matter of curiosity, I've found that once things get really exciting I steer almost exclusively with my right hand, with the left hand reaching under/over it (depending on direction) to uncross my arms when I run out of elbows.
[quote=Platinum]But using the crossed arms method mean that you are obstructing the 'path' of the airbag (if fitted) should it go off.
That's just one of the choices you make when steering though. Do you do more upfront to mean you're less likely to crash OR not make adequate inputs, crash but you're not worried because you didn't cross your arms and therefore you're not going to hit yourself in the face when the airbag goes off.
I've seen experts drift cars beautifully using only push-pull but for most of us mere mortals we tend to use other methods. Only way of finding out what works for you is to get out on an airfield and have a play!
That's just one of the choices you make when steering though. Do you do more upfront to mean you're less likely to crash OR not make adequate inputs, crash but you're not worried because you didn't cross your arms and therefore you're not going to hit yourself in the face when the airbag goes off.
I've seen experts drift cars beautifully using only push-pull but for most of us mere mortals we tend to use other methods. Only way of finding out what works for you is to get out on an airfield and have a play!
tommundy said:
What I do is keep my hands at a quarter to three most of the time but if I am coming upto a sharper bend, then in preparation I do the following:
Left Hander:
Move left hand clockwise around the wheel (say, 11 o'clock) and right hand to 5 o'clock, then as you go around the bend you dont have to feed the wheel as you have already prepared your hands and once going around the corner you're more within your normal limits of movement. (quarter to 3 style)
Right Hander:
Same as above but right hand at 1 o'clock and left hand at 7 o'clock.
The 'times' can be adjusted for each specific corner obviously and once out of the corner either go back to quarter to 3 with a straight wheel or prepare hands for the next corner.
I think I remember reading this was the way to do it also, so I guess I taught myself
Let me know what you think.
Cheers
Tom
Left Hander:
Move left hand clockwise around the wheel (say, 11 o'clock) and right hand to 5 o'clock, then as you go around the bend you dont have to feed the wheel as you have already prepared your hands and once going around the corner you're more within your normal limits of movement. (quarter to 3 style)
Right Hander:
Same as above but right hand at 1 o'clock and left hand at 7 o'clock.
The 'times' can be adjusted for each specific corner obviously and once out of the corner either go back to quarter to 3 with a straight wheel or prepare hands for the next corner.
I think I remember reading this was the way to do it also, so I guess I taught myself
Let me know what you think.
Cheers
Tom
One of the things I have seen go wrong with this techniques is that you have to movbe two hands before turning, with the "shuffle" you only move one. I have seen some people get into the habit of moving both hands at once leaving the wheel temporarily "unheld". Not saying you are doing it of course, just seen it done!
Bert
I tend to use fixed grip for up to 90 degrees of rotation - the question mentioned fast road driving, and interestingly this tends to cope with most fast road driving. It provides smoothness with sensitivity, and leaves a good amount of wheel travel available in either direction.
I have a question for users of two handed fixed grip. Do you find that both hands do the same amount of work and sensing, or is one hand doing more? If so, is it the pull or the push hand which does more, or is it always one particular hand with the other just having a steadying role?
I have a question for users of two handed fixed grip. Do you find that both hands do the same amount of work and sensing, or is one hand doing more? If so, is it the pull or the push hand which does more, or is it always one particular hand with the other just having a steadying role?
bertbert said:
One of the things I have seen go wrong with this techniques is that you have to movbe two hands before turning, with the "shuffle" you only move one. I have seen some people get into the habit of moving both hands at once leaving the wheel temporarily "unheld". Not saying you are doing it of course, just seen it done!
Bert
No need to move both hands at once with this technique, well in my style, not anyway (simply move left hand first then right hand or vice versa, I make it a point of NEVER leaving the wheel without a hand attached to it). I agree with the 'unheld' steering wheel, this is probably one of the most frustrating things I see with drivers, especially coming out of corners and letting the steering wheel 'auto-correct' itself. Its so dangerous in my eyes because not only are you not holding the wheel but if something happens you have to suddenly grab the wheel, then car is going to be massively off balance and that will lead to further problems.
Cheers
Tom
waremark said:
I have a question for users of two handed fixed grip. Do you find that both hands do the same amount of work and sensing, or is one hand doing more?
If I'm using a fixed grip both hands apply equal force while they're both on the wheel, but if I'm twirling the wheel I find that my right hand holds on to the wheel more or less the whole time but my left hand is taken off to pass under/over the right. Sometimes I spend several seconds steering one-handed if my opposite-lockery ends up with the wheel in that awkward position mid grip change and it's not clear whether I'm going to need a lot more lock or a lot less. I guess I have got used to the right hand doing most of the steering because my left hand often has to do other things like changing gear. It looks messy on camera but it's effective and happens now without any conscious thought.
tommundy said:
I agree with the 'unheld' steering wheel, this is probably one of the most frustrating things I see with drivers, especially coming out of corners and letting the steering wheel 'auto-correct' itself. Its so dangerous in my eyes because not only are you not holding the wheel but if something happens you have to suddenly grab the wheel, then car is going to be massively off balance and that will lead to further problems.
Whilst I also hate to see "one handed driving at speed" it's a common technique in limit handling style driving to let the front wheels correct themselves in a skid. Strangely the wheels will often do a better job of pointing themselves in the right direction than the driver will be able to manage!
Experimenting with steering techniques is endlessly fascinating, probably because there are so many different options. Which of course means that it's hard to give definitive advice.
I think it's really a question of doing what works. And recognising that what works varies according to the vehicle, its steering geometry, speed, tyres, steering wheel size and position, clearance between the rim and your legs, the severity and nature of the bend and probably a dozen or so other factors that may be more important still.
To illustrate, here's a clip of somebody who's obviously enjoying themselves experimenting with different techniques for different situations...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUbO3-jdGsk
WilliBetz
PS. Having said all that, I worry at the o/p's mention of opposite lock on the road. It's not appropriate.
PPS. Waremark... at the moment, I definitely favour pushing with the outside hand for connectivity.
I think it's really a question of doing what works. And recognising that what works varies according to the vehicle, its steering geometry, speed, tyres, steering wheel size and position, clearance between the rim and your legs, the severity and nature of the bend and probably a dozen or so other factors that may be more important still.
To illustrate, here's a clip of somebody who's obviously enjoying themselves experimenting with different techniques for different situations...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUbO3-jdGsk
WilliBetz
PS. Having said all that, I worry at the o/p's mention of opposite lock on the road. It's not appropriate.
PPS. Waremark... at the moment, I definitely favour pushing with the outside hand for connectivity.
Edited by willibetz on Monday 2nd April 17:26
I like to "get the back end out" and always make sure I have one hand at quarter to three (either the left is on the 9 or the right is on the 3). And it may or may not be the hand that is doing the steering (if it is then the grip is firm, otherwise it's light). If it's light then the other hand can be anywhere convenient, doing the steering. This means that I always know which way is "up".
shadowninja said:
I like to "get the back end out"
On the road? If so, why? I presume you are confident that you can do it without diminishing your own safety or causing concern to other road users, but is there any benefit?
I guess most of us here would disapprove, though some of us would do it on track or proving ground. Personally, I don't have the skill to drift with confidence that I can remain under control on the correct part of the road.
Do you feel we are being 'priggish' if we disapprove of this sort of antic on the road?
So far as your steering technique is concerned, I don't quite understand what you are saying.
Kermit power said:
Hi All,
What's the recommended view on this? I know on the track you're supposed to have your hands at quarter to three and keep them in the same place on the wheel through cornering. Presumably this is also good practice when on the road, but what's the best thing to do when you're on a tight bend where you need to put on more than the half turn or so of opposite lock that you can put on without moving your hands on the wheel?
What's the recommended view on this? I know on the track you're supposed to have your hands at quarter to three and keep them in the same place on the wheel through cornering. Presumably this is also good practice when on the road, but what's the best thing to do when you're on a tight bend where you need to put on more than the half turn or so of opposite lock that you can put on without moving your hands on the wheel?
According to the IAM and RoSPA, pull-push is the recommended method. But IMHO if you run over an unseen slick on a wet day, or any other accidental slippage, it will probably be irrecoverable unless you switch to another steering technique.
My preferred method only - it's not for everyone:
Keep the 9-3 grip and just turn naturally. If the bend is too sharp, go hand-over-hand.
Steering should be a natural affair, not a technical one.
I studied a lot about human-machine interactions and machine usability at university, and have read no scientific literature or objective analysis of how the steering wheel should be manipulated (being interested in cars and driving, I searched a fair bit for such information).
It is better to have crap steering-wheel technique, but otherwise excellent driving and car control, than to absorb yourself so much with steering-wheel technique that other aspects of your driving and car control suffer.
waremark said:
I have a question for users of two handed fixed grip. Do you find that both hands do the same amount of work and sensing, or is one hand doing more? If so, is it the pull or the push hand which does more, or is it always one particular hand with the other just having a steadying role?
I find that the initial input in done mostly with the inside-hand - or the "pulling hand". But after that initial input, as my outside hand - or "pushing hand" - begins to reach 12 o'clock, I will steer with the outside hand. From karting, I know that for tighter bends I'm more anchored to my seat and better able to sense balance and traction of the car, when steering with the outside hand (some call it the "power posture" ). But for mild bends, I prefer to keep the load evenly on both hands. Only when the bends are sharp enough to have my hands going close to, or over the 12 and 6 o'clock areas, do I bias the workload toward the outside/pushing hand.
My inside/pulling hand is used for fine adjustments, and the outside/pulling hand is used for gross movement of the steering wheel.
Edited by Jungles on Saturday 7th April 17:24
Jungles said:
It is better to have crap steering-wheel technique, but otherwise excellent driving and car control, than to absorb yourself so much with steering-wheel technique that other aspects of your driving and car control suffer.
Yippee!
Best wishes all,
Dave - a very informal steerer.
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