Cornering basics 2 Assessing a bend without the limit point
Discussion
I disagree because;
I first see a horse type bit of fencing,
sunlight through an apparently open section of hedge nearby & with marks on Road
so likely access to Fields.
Then theres the path on the other side of the road which would most certainly
be likely route to & from the Field
That together with not knowing this Road, and the fact,
as pointed out above the view is less than perfect.
I'd be looking hard down the Road for both Horse muck at that crossing,
and animals being led to it
if your lucky,
In which case the only part of the animal showing above low hedge
would be its head.
I first see a horse type bit of fencing,
sunlight through an apparently open section of hedge nearby & with marks on Road
so likely access to Fields.
Then theres the path on the other side of the road which would most certainly
be likely route to & from the Field
That together with not knowing this Road, and the fact,
as pointed out above the view is less than perfect.
I'd be looking hard down the Road for both Horse muck at that crossing,
and animals being led to it
if your lucky,
In which case the only part of the animal showing above low hedge
would be its head.
Edited by rich 36 on Wednesday 4th April 16:24
flemke said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
acceleration sense is a very important skill in road driving, and adjusting your speed for corners just by using the throttle is a difficult and delicate skill.
My instructor used to say (when I was on speaking terms with him) that, as a rule, you should accelerate in the first 1/3 of the typical straight and then lift in order to arrive at the next bend at the right speed to avoid the need to brake.
At first I thought that he was being much too conservative, but over time I have come to appreciate that that guideline is a pretty good one.
You're not on speaking terms with your instructor? That should make for some interesting lessons!
I've heard this 1/3 acceleration theory before, and although I haven't actually been taught it, I have tried it out and it does work on certain roads, but the bends have to be similar and consistent (i.e. not opening / tightening). I've no objection to accelerating further down a straight and getting entry speed correct with the brakes, as long as the braking is smooth and done with enough time to get a gear for the bend if necessary, before turning in and accelerating. Having said that, on the right road, getting your speed correct for corners just by lifting or pressing the accelerator is a lovely smooth way to progress if you're in the mood for loping along, rather than really pressing on.
rich 36 said:
Right about the time I see that fence,
[pic]picture of road[/pic]
Im thinking Horses (especially)
using the road and maybee heading towards the Elbow of the road & ME,
And the last place I want to have to slow and avoid them on the O/S verge
would be, (as I think you are saying)
....On the wrong side of the carriageway,
where I would now look slightly stupid as a failed boy racer
But lets discuss
[pic]picture of road[/pic]
Im thinking Horses (especially)
using the road and maybee heading towards the Elbow of the road & ME,
And the last place I want to have to slow and avoid them on the O/S verge
would be, (as I think you are saying)
....On the wrong side of the carriageway,
where I would now look slightly stupid as a failed boy racer
But lets discuss
There's no right or wrong side of the road - just the nearside and offside. You pay for all of the road, so why just use half of it?
I can see where you're coming from, but you're basing your assumption on a single static photograph. In reality, in a moving car, the view alters and improves on the way into the bend, and any horses would be visible long before you decided whether or not to go offside. As I've said before, you should base your plans on what you can see and what you can't see, and on any rural roads, accompanied horses and ponies are a possibility. That's why, as I mentioned before, you should always have a secondary plan, which, in this case, would be to lose more speed on the way in to the corner, turn in later, and remain to the left of the centre-lines.
R_U_LOCAL said:
If the bend were completely visible, i.e. there were no trees or hedge to the offside, then I'd be happy to approach this bend towards the nearside, take a line which cuts towards the offside kerb and then back to the nearside on the exit, and continue accelerating throughout.
As this isn't the case, and the view, although good, isn't perfect, then yes, I'd be holding a nearside position until I were closer to the bend and the view was better. As you can see from the later picture, the view does open up nicely, but as we've held the nearside position a little longer to confirm the view, then my position wouldn't be completely offside through the bend - it'd more than likely be straddling the centre line.
As this isn't the case, and the view, although good, isn't perfect, then yes, I'd be holding a nearside position until I were closer to the bend and the view was better. As you can see from the later picture, the view does open up nicely, but as we've held the nearside position a little longer to confirm the view, then my position wouldn't be completely offside through the bend - it'd more than likely be straddling the centre line.
That sums it up nicely. I was originally thrown by your comment to approach planning to offside at picture 4, when in reality you are commiting to offsiding at picture 5 (better view of both sides of the road).
And this is just one bend!
'Accompanied horses and ponies are a possibility. That's why, as I mentioned before, you should always have a secondary plan, which, in this case, would be to lose more speed on the way in to the corner, turn in later, and remain to the left of the centre-lines.'
I'm not an overly defencive driver, but I'm very aware of the outcome
of people with less observation, pointlessly speeding in a rural area,
where as your pictures illustrate, numerous variables.
A bend
A fence
An opening, with the sun streaming through it
A path. on the side nearest that fence,
Further,
I would offer that beside the road bearing off out of sight
untill well through that bend, It appears to raise
as it reaches that paddock fencing as well,
which in my case makes me think,
'am I seeing the road climb beyond the hazard, or the hedge line?
I'm all for roadcraft but I would rather see the onus on caution
rather than misplaced optimism given this particular instance.
I'm not an overly defencive driver, but I'm very aware of the outcome
of people with less observation, pointlessly speeding in a rural area,
where as your pictures illustrate, numerous variables.
A bend
A fence
An opening, with the sun streaming through it
A path. on the side nearest that fence,
Further,
I would offer that beside the road bearing off out of sight
untill well through that bend, It appears to raise
as it reaches that paddock fencing as well,
which in my case makes me think,
'am I seeing the road climb beyond the hazard, or the hedge line?
I'm all for roadcraft but I would rather see the onus on caution
rather than misplaced optimism given this particular instance.
R_U_LOCAL said:
You're not on speaking terms with your instructor? That should make for some interesting lessons!
I've heard this 1/3 acceleration theory before, and although I haven't actually been taught it, I have tried it out and it does work on certain roads, but the bends have to be similar and consistent (i.e. not opening / tightening). I've no objection to accelerating further down a straight and getting entry speed correct with the brakes, as long as the braking is smooth and done with enough time to get a gear for the bend if necessary, before turning in and accelerating. Having said that, on the right road, getting your speed correct for corners just by lifting or pressing the accelerator is a lovely smooth way to progress if you're in the mood for loping along, rather than really pressing on.
I've heard this 1/3 acceleration theory before, and although I haven't actually been taught it, I have tried it out and it does work on certain roads, but the bends have to be similar and consistent (i.e. not opening / tightening). I've no objection to accelerating further down a straight and getting entry speed correct with the brakes, as long as the braking is smooth and done with enough time to get a gear for the bend if necessary, before turning in and accelerating. Having said that, on the right road, getting your speed correct for corners just by lifting or pressing the accelerator is a lovely smooth way to progress if you're in the mood for loping along, rather than really pressing on.
I should have said "former instructor", and I can assure you that I am not alone amongst his ex-students who do not speak with him.
As for pressing on, for sure you need to use your brakes more as your average rate of progress rises, but I have seen some truly skillful and...extremely...progressive driving done using this 1/3 general guideline.
Cheers.
Why do you post in sonnets Rich? Very peculiar!
I think you are taking caution to excess here, that's a pretty open bend with good visibility due to the gradient. If you really think a bogeyman (or bogeyhorse) is going to jump out from behind every tree I'm surprised you even bother turning the key. Remember there WAS an approaching vehicle which has already passed - did Reg see him slow and move out to clear any such obstacle? If he had he would have used appropriate speed and positioning having been alerted to the hazard. The road has been proved to be clear, Reg has good visibility of any approach to the road from the field (just in case a showjumper makes an escape attempt) so he knows it has remained clear, and good visibility of the road itself so he can see it is (surprisingly) still clear. There is no reason for the degree of caution you counsel.
I think you are taking caution to excess here, that's a pretty open bend with good visibility due to the gradient. If you really think a bogeyman (or bogeyhorse) is going to jump out from behind every tree I'm surprised you even bother turning the key. Remember there WAS an approaching vehicle which has already passed - did Reg see him slow and move out to clear any such obstacle? If he had he would have used appropriate speed and positioning having been alerted to the hazard. The road has been proved to be clear, Reg has good visibility of any approach to the road from the field (just in case a showjumper makes an escape attempt) so he knows it has remained clear, and good visibility of the road itself so he can see it is (surprisingly) still clear. There is no reason for the degree of caution you counsel.
rich 36 said:
'Accompanied horses and ponies are a possibility. That's why, as I mentioned before, you should always have a secondary plan, which, in this case, would be to lose more speed on the way in to the corner, turn in later, and remain to the left of the centre-lines.'
I'm not an overly defencive driver, but I'm very aware of the outcome
of people with less observation, pointlessly speeding in a rural area,
where as your pictures illustrate, numerous variables.
A bend
A fence
An opening, with the sun streaming through it
A path. on the side nearest that fence,
Further,
I would offer that beside the road bearing off out of sight
untill well through that bend, It appears to raise
as it reaches that paddock fencing as well,
which in my case makes me think,
'am I seeing the road climb beyond the hazard, or the hedge line?
I'm all for roadcraft but I would rather see the onus on caution
rather than misplaced optimism given this particular instance.
I'm not an overly defencive driver, but I'm very aware of the outcome
of people with less observation, pointlessly speeding in a rural area,
where as your pictures illustrate, numerous variables.
A bend
A fence
An opening, with the sun streaming through it
A path. on the side nearest that fence,
Further,
I would offer that beside the road bearing off out of sight
untill well through that bend, It appears to raise
as it reaches that paddock fencing as well,
which in my case makes me think,
'am I seeing the road climb beyond the hazard, or the hedge line?
I'm all for roadcraft but I would rather see the onus on caution
rather than misplaced optimism given this particular instance.
It's great to be cautious, but where do you draw the line? Yes, there could be horses around the corner, and your plan should take that into account, but what else could be there? And which of those possibilities should we include in our plan?
There could be a herd of sheep in the road, or a pheasant, or a cyclist who's fallen off, or a Japanese sniper, or a French couple making love, or an escaped lunatic, or a downed WWII Spitfire.
If you start considering too many "what ifs", then you'd never get above 20 MPH, and as my area of expertise is in performance road driving, then that's what my posts will be angled towards.
I'm not going to criticise you for driving with more caution than I do, but there are plenty of drivers out there who do enjoy driving at speed on country roads, and planning for an offside position through this particular road certainly isn't "misplaced optimism".
Vaux said:
Major Bloodnok said:
Surely that would earn you a big, fat "fail" on an IAM test, though. Especially given that the road is marked with a hazard line, not a plain centre line.
Why would you fail?
If it's safe and legal?
Possibly because, on our "meet the examiner" nights, the examiners always say "don't cross the centre line to straighten out bends and corners".
Major Bloodnok said:
Vaux said:
Major Bloodnok said:
Surely that would earn you a big, fat "fail" on an IAM test, though. Especially given that the road is marked with a hazard line, not a plain centre line.
Why would you fail?
If it's safe and legal?
Possibly because, on our "meet the examiner" nights, the examiners always say "don't cross the centre line to straighten out bends and corners".
Sorry this is off topic and will be my last post on this thread!
Get your examiners to contact HQ and check. There's strong information from IAM forum that straightening roundabouts and offsiding is acceptable - "if safe and legal". And something about not misleading to others.
Point taken I'm sure,
although I think a Sptfire downed in the road a bit unlikely,
Not seen this discussed here abouts in What, Three years coming here,
and as I pointed out,
I am certainly not given to over cautious motoring as
'Oboes' will testify on the Northants outings,
I am, merely sensitive to Car/horse scenario as I've seen the aftermath
of a speeding car, recklessly taking a horses legs from beneath it, and rider
with predictable results at the outcome of the animal.
(Teenage rider survived)
Its a pity more drivers took an amount of care, and a considered approach
discussed in this thread instead of the utterly stupid behaviour
we see around horses,
anyway keep up the good work you lot
Two pennyworth spent
although I think a Sptfire downed in the road a bit unlikely,
Not seen this discussed here abouts in What, Three years coming here,
and as I pointed out,
I am certainly not given to over cautious motoring as
'Oboes' will testify on the Northants outings,
I am, merely sensitive to Car/horse scenario as I've seen the aftermath
of a speeding car, recklessly taking a horses legs from beneath it, and rider
with predictable results at the outcome of the animal.
(Teenage rider survived)
Its a pity more drivers took an amount of care, and a considered approach
discussed in this thread instead of the utterly stupid behaviour
we see around horses,
anyway keep up the good work you lot
Two pennyworth spent
R_U_LOCAL said:
flemke said:
No disagreement with any of the above.
This is a pretty interesting bend, however.
The interplay of the adverse camber on the nearside and the fairly blind junction on the left suggests to me that one would want to approach the bend from hard on the nearside to get the view ahead and fatten the radius, hope to cut the corner but be prepared for something unsighted behind the cluster of offside trees, and seek to cut the corner in order to allow more space away from that blind junction.
That would lead to a bigger lift off the throttle prior to the bend than would otherwise be the case, wouldn't it?
This is a pretty interesting bend, however.
The interplay of the adverse camber on the nearside and the fairly blind junction on the left suggests to me that one would want to approach the bend from hard on the nearside to get the view ahead and fatten the radius, hope to cut the corner but be prepared for something unsighted behind the cluster of offside trees, and seek to cut the corner in order to allow more space away from that blind junction.
That would lead to a bigger lift off the throttle prior to the bend than would otherwise be the case, wouldn't it?
If the bend were completely visible, i.e. there were no trees or hedge to the offside, then I'd be happy to approach this bend towards the nearside, take a line which cuts towards the offside kerb and then back to the nearside on the exit, and continue accelerating throughout.
As this isn't the case, and the view, although good, isn't perfect, then yes, I'd be holding a nearside position until I were closer to the bend and the view was better. As you can see from the later picture, the view does open up nicely, but as we've held the nearside position a little longer to confirm the view, then my position wouldn't be completely offside through the bend - it'd more than likely be straddling the centre line.
As you've identified, it'd probably entail holding back on the acceleration until that view opens up too, but acceleration sense is a very important skill in road driving, and adjusting your speed for corners just by using the throttle is a difficult and delicate skill.
With a bend like this one I would probably use a good deal of the offside lane if I'm in press-on mode, for the sake of increasing the radius of the turn to make things smoother and reduce the lateral force. In any case the speed would be such that if an oncomer appeared I could confine myself to my own side of the road and the speed would not be a problem. What we should not be doing IMHO is using all the road because we need it due to our speed, and then find it isn't all available for us to use!
In pottering mode I probably would not go offside much, if at all, unless I had concern about the turning on the left.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
flemke said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
acceleration sense is a very important skill in road driving, and adjusting your speed for corners just by using the throttle is a difficult and delicate skill.
My instructor used to say (when I was on speaking terms with him) that, as a rule, you should accelerate in the first 1/3 of the typical straight and then lift in order to arrive at the next bend at the right speed to avoid the need to brake.
At first I thought that he was being much too conservative, but over time I have come to appreciate that that guideline is a pretty good one.
Yes I think we've heard that sort of recommendation previously, but does it not depend on the length of the straight, the nature of the second bend, the power of the car etc., and who knows what else?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
R_U_LOCAL said:
....the view, although good, isn't perfect, then yes, I'd be holding a nearside position until I were closer to the bend and the view was better. As you can see from the later picture, the view does open up nicely, but as we've held the nearside position a little longer to confirm the view, then my position wouldn't be completely offside through the bend - it'd more than likely be straddling the centre line.
Other factors to discourage a full offside position would be the approach of the white car - you don't want to discomfort him - and the lack of need, given that your speed has been moderated because of the lack of complete view and the curve is relatively gentle.
Do you agree?
flemke said:
My instructor used to say (when I was on speaking terms with him) that, as a rule, you should accelerate in the first 1/3 of the typical straight and then lift in order to arrive at the next bend at the right speed to avoid the need to brake.
At first I thought that he was being much too conservative, but over time I have come to appreciate that that guideline is a pretty good one.
It varies greatly depending on the characteristics of the car. And what I remember him suggesting to me was to accelerate for the first third of a straight, maintain speed for the middle third, and slow in the last third. Our instructor was not always consistent about his Golden Rules! At first I thought that he was being much too conservative, but over time I have come to appreciate that that guideline is a pretty good one.
BTW, our same instructor was latterly more cautious about offsiding - on my most recent drive with him he argued that you should never be seen offside by an oncoming vehicle. In spite of my comment about consistency, I don't think he would have approved of offsiding in the face of the oncoming white car.
TripleS said:
Yes I think we've heard that sort of recommendation previously, but does it not depend on the length of the straight, the nature of the second bend, the power of the car etc., and who knows what else?
This is indeed the case.
I've just been surprised at the frequency with which the advice seemed to suit a wide range of circumstances.
It can be an illuminating yet benign driving exercise to try to get entry speed right with only a brake-less lift whilst nonetheless making good progress.
flemke said:
TripleS said:
Yes I think we've heard that sort of recommendation previously, but does it not depend on the length of the straight, the nature of the second bend, the power of the car etc., and who knows what else?
This is indeed the case.
I've just been surprised at the frequency with which the advice seemed to suit a wide range of circumstances.
It can be an illuminating yet benign driving exercise to try to get entry speed right with only a brake-less lift whilst nonetheless making good progress.
I actually say on 2 way roads it's more like 1/2 way & 1/3 for single track roads.
flemke said:
TripleS said:
Yes I think we've heard that sort of recommendation previously, but does it not depend on the length of the straight, the nature of the second bend, the power of the car etc., and who knows what else?
This is indeed the case.
I've just been surprised at the frequency with which the advice seemed to suit a wide range of circumstances.
It can be an illuminating yet benign driving exercise to try to get entry speed right with only a brake-less lift whilst nonetheless making good progress.
Indeed so. One driving style that I very much enjoy is making rapid progress without the use of brakes, merely lifting off early, perhaps with a downchange in a few cases before a bend or a downhill section. Yes, I know about 'brakes to slow, gears to go' but it's not completely mandatory yet - is it?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
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