Dr Local's driving clinic
Discussion
leon_t said:
Only problem is, I'm going to make mistakes learning to drive a different way. I just hope that they don't cost as much as this one did!
Hey, we all make mistakes. There is no such thing as the perfect drive or driver for that matter. As I said, the important thing is that you learn from any error made. Over analysis can be a bad thing too. I suffered a real crisis of confidence last year when I was over analising every aspect of my driving.
I drove along the A35 today that runs through the New Forest. I pulled onto this road behind an old boy in a Jag XJ who was cruising along fine at about 55. Then we both came upon a Golf that was going a tad slower. The speed of the Golf then began to vary from 40 to 55 (something which really gets on my tits) and brake unnecessarily on straights and coast around corners. This always rings alarm bells with me for someone who has probably expired at the wheel and I consider it best for my sanity to get past them. Anyone who knows the road will know that it is quite wide and sweepy with quite a few straights, but you've got to have something pretty punchy or a lot of luck to actually overtake on the straights because they have dips and trees obstructing the view etc.
It became clear after a couple of clear straights that the Jag had no intention of overtaking, so I despatched him and then began the excruciating task of accelerating from a way back to carry some speed onto a straight, taking a look, seeing a line of cars, and slowing down again. The Golf soon brakes again, which I ignore based on my previous experience of him braking for a second and then carrying on again. But then he moves left and finally, indicates. There's no junction so I don't know what the hell he's doing, but as I look in my mirror to move out around him I see an ambulance two cars behind, lights going. I carry on along the straight and see a line of cars in the opposite carriageway with a overtakee halfway through a manoeuvre, so I decide for the ambulance to pass I should dive into a layby on me left, which I do. The reason being that I didn't fancy the ambulances chances of getting past me with traffic on the opposite side, but in hindsight it seems like a silly thing to have done, when I could have just booted it up to 70 or so and he probably wouldn't have been held up.
Was the Golf in the wrong for stopping in the road and bringing an entire carriageway to a near standstill, or was I in the wrong for going round him? It made me realise that in my endeavour to overtake and not drive into the back of Mr Oscillation, I had been looking forward far too much and had lost some of my situational awareness. The most galling thing was that now that I was in a layby, the entire queue crawled past me and I was left to pull in at the back
It became clear after a couple of clear straights that the Jag had no intention of overtaking, so I despatched him and then began the excruciating task of accelerating from a way back to carry some speed onto a straight, taking a look, seeing a line of cars, and slowing down again. The Golf soon brakes again, which I ignore based on my previous experience of him braking for a second and then carrying on again. But then he moves left and finally, indicates. There's no junction so I don't know what the hell he's doing, but as I look in my mirror to move out around him I see an ambulance two cars behind, lights going. I carry on along the straight and see a line of cars in the opposite carriageway with a overtakee halfway through a manoeuvre, so I decide for the ambulance to pass I should dive into a layby on me left, which I do. The reason being that I didn't fancy the ambulances chances of getting past me with traffic on the opposite side, but in hindsight it seems like a silly thing to have done, when I could have just booted it up to 70 or so and he probably wouldn't have been held up.
Was the Golf in the wrong for stopping in the road and bringing an entire carriageway to a near standstill, or was I in the wrong for going round him? It made me realise that in my endeavour to overtake and not drive into the back of Mr Oscillation, I had been looking forward far too much and had lost some of my situational awareness. The most galling thing was that now that I was in a layby, the entire queue crawled past me and I was left to pull in at the back
Edited by RDE on Tuesday 24th April 17:40
Edited by RDE on Tuesday 24th April 17:42
RDE said:
Stuff about an ambulance and a Golf
You've made a coouple of common errors. You've underestimated the Golf driver - they saw the ambulance in their mirrors before you did, so for all their poor use of speed, they were at least carrying out regular mirror checks. You've also been sucked into a common habit when looking for an overtake - you've become so engrossed with looking forward for an opportunity to go that you've neglected your mirror checks, particularly the one you should do before you commit to the overtake.
Don't forget, though, that emergency service vehicle drivers have recieved training in blue-light driving and the situation you described (vehicle at the front sees you, vehicle behind it doesn't and overtakes first car) is a situation that is encountered by emergency drivers on almost every response run. They won't have given it a second thought - I've lost count of the number of sheepish looks I've recieved in similar situations, but I honestly couldn't care less - my attention is too far up the road to be bothered with what mistakes other people have made. As long as I've realised what's happening and dealt with it correctly, that's all that matters.
I think you've already realise what combination of errors led up to this situation - it sounds as though the Golf stopped in a poor location, and that you were looking too hard for the overtake to have noticed the ambulance behind, but ending up stuck in the lay-by as a line of vehicles comes past you is a good lesson I think.
Thanks for the reply - as soon as I saw the blue lights I knew i'd wrongly written the Golf driver off as an idiot and now felt/feel like one myself. I'm normally really aware of what's going on behind me, so i'm really annoyed that I let it slip just due to impatience.
Cheers Reg
Cheers Reg
Edited by RDE on Tuesday 24th April 18:22
This happened this morning on my daily commute. Was my actions correct or should I have taken a different course of action.
Leaving a twisty section of SC with double white lines, there follows a longish straight down trough a dip. Vision is good all the way into the dip and out (i.e. no chance of a car being hidden) halfway along the staight is an access road leading to farm and some houses. Its a nice bellmouth entrance but is obscured by trees after the first 5mtrs so you can't see whether it wil become active or not until your almost at it.
Anyway, out of twisty bit behind van doing around 40-45 ish, I'm keeping, well back in following position (around 3seconds) looking for early vision down the straight. There's one vehicle towards which we pass oposite the entrance, I have already dismissed the overtake seeing the vehicle towards as this would not give me enough time to complete an overtake on the slight uphill on the remaining half of the straight. Once the one towards is past, the van in front indicates left, (usually taken in this part of the world as an invitation to pass). I maintain my following position of around 3s, however the driver then begings to brake gradually wanting me to pass, I increase my gap slightly as I'm not in an appropriate gear to respond and overtake. He slows even more, down to nearly 20mph, by this time an overtake is out of the question and would put me into danger by being out on the offside in a dip, approaching a white line system and out of balance accelerating hard. He eventually gets the message and moves back off.
Further down the raod after a 30 limit through a village there is a tight RH bend with a very long straight after it. I postion myself for an early vision off the bend and get ready to offside immediately if clear (no accelaration) to prepare to overtake. I only move up to a position 1.5 -2s behind him as we begin to turn out of the bend. I am also thinking he will jam on the brakes as soon as he sees the straight to be clear. Sure enough, as soon as I see no cars towards and no danger ahead, I begin to move offside. Just as I begin, i can see his brakes coming on and he brakes hard to let me past. If I hadn't moved prepared to overtake and begun to move offside he would have forced me to jump on my brakes! Once past and seeing him in both nearside and rearview mirrors I pull back in smoothly. He the gives me 3 or 4 quick flashes, either for not passing him sooner or to tell me its safe to pull back in!!
Anything different I could have done?
Gordon
Leaving a twisty section of SC with double white lines, there follows a longish straight down trough a dip. Vision is good all the way into the dip and out (i.e. no chance of a car being hidden) halfway along the staight is an access road leading to farm and some houses. Its a nice bellmouth entrance but is obscured by trees after the first 5mtrs so you can't see whether it wil become active or not until your almost at it.
Anyway, out of twisty bit behind van doing around 40-45 ish, I'm keeping, well back in following position (around 3seconds) looking for early vision down the straight. There's one vehicle towards which we pass oposite the entrance, I have already dismissed the overtake seeing the vehicle towards as this would not give me enough time to complete an overtake on the slight uphill on the remaining half of the straight. Once the one towards is past, the van in front indicates left, (usually taken in this part of the world as an invitation to pass). I maintain my following position of around 3s, however the driver then begings to brake gradually wanting me to pass, I increase my gap slightly as I'm not in an appropriate gear to respond and overtake. He slows even more, down to nearly 20mph, by this time an overtake is out of the question and would put me into danger by being out on the offside in a dip, approaching a white line system and out of balance accelerating hard. He eventually gets the message and moves back off.
Further down the raod after a 30 limit through a village there is a tight RH bend with a very long straight after it. I postion myself for an early vision off the bend and get ready to offside immediately if clear (no accelaration) to prepare to overtake. I only move up to a position 1.5 -2s behind him as we begin to turn out of the bend. I am also thinking he will jam on the brakes as soon as he sees the straight to be clear. Sure enough, as soon as I see no cars towards and no danger ahead, I begin to move offside. Just as I begin, i can see his brakes coming on and he brakes hard to let me past. If I hadn't moved prepared to overtake and begun to move offside he would have forced me to jump on my brakes! Once past and seeing him in both nearside and rearview mirrors I pull back in smoothly. He the gives me 3 or 4 quick flashes, either for not passing him sooner or to tell me its safe to pull back in!!
Anything different I could have done?
Gordon
Where is this mythical place you speak of where drivers allow you to overtake? 
Your description of events sounds like you've handled things appropriately. The main thing is that you haven't just blindly accepted the other driver's invitation to overtake and you've preferred to make your own judgement as to whether it's safe to go or not.
It's very easy to accept an invitation such as that one without fully considering the safety implications, and you were quite right not to take the first opportunity.
Your description of events sounds like you've handled things appropriately. The main thing is that you haven't just blindly accepted the other driver's invitation to overtake and you've preferred to make your own judgement as to whether it's safe to go or not.
It's very easy to accept an invitation such as that one without fully considering the safety implications, and you were quite right not to take the first opportunity.
You can't win sometimes can you?, you hang back not wanting to appear too pushy then when an observant (maybe) van driver wants to help you, you are'nt close enough to dispatch him in what you consider enough time, If you had been right up his chuff you could have got round him.
If you try driving that close next time you can bet you will get the fingers or worse.
Better safe than sorry, 8/10
If you try driving that close next time you can bet you will get the fingers or worse.
Better safe than sorry, 8/10
Had an - um, interesting - incident today.
Background: I was travelling north on the A4048. It's a typical South Wales Valleys road - single carriageway, down near the valley bottom, with lots of twisties (both vertical and horizontal). This particular section was NSL. In front were a battered old Volvo estate (car A), closely followed by a an anonymous Eurobox (car B). Car B had formated (is that a word? - like planes flying in formation) on car A (invisible tow rope), and both were maintaining an unsteady speed of 30 - 40 mph.
The incident: Using local knowledge, I know that there is a good overtaking opportunity just around the next bend - a long, slightly uphill straight, with good visibility. Move into the contact position as we round the bend; wait for an approaching car to clear; all clear ahead; check behind; the overtake is on! I'm pretty sure that car B isn't going to overtake (having observed him since he trundled out of a side road and into my path a few miles back), but give him a quick flash as I'm indicating and moving right. Accelerate briskly (no need for full throttle, plenty of room to complete the manouevre). And then, car A (the lead car) is indicating right and pulls right across the road in front of me! I brake sharply; check behind (fortunately, still clear) and slot back behind car B. In my mirror, I can see car A has stopped on the gravel verge on the "other" side of the road next to what appears to be a (farm) field gate.
It could have been a lot worse; nothing damaged but my pride. Still, I reckon there must be something to learn from this - so over to you!
p.s. there is nothing obvious on the road (paint, kerbs, etc) to indicate the presence of the gate - it's a good 6 - 8 ft back from the road behind the uniform gravel verge. In all the times I've travelled that road before, I have never even noticed it.
Background: I was travelling north on the A4048. It's a typical South Wales Valleys road - single carriageway, down near the valley bottom, with lots of twisties (both vertical and horizontal). This particular section was NSL. In front were a battered old Volvo estate (car A), closely followed by a an anonymous Eurobox (car B). Car B had formated (is that a word? - like planes flying in formation) on car A (invisible tow rope), and both were maintaining an unsteady speed of 30 - 40 mph.
The incident: Using local knowledge, I know that there is a good overtaking opportunity just around the next bend - a long, slightly uphill straight, with good visibility. Move into the contact position as we round the bend; wait for an approaching car to clear; all clear ahead; check behind; the overtake is on! I'm pretty sure that car B isn't going to overtake (having observed him since he trundled out of a side road and into my path a few miles back), but give him a quick flash as I'm indicating and moving right. Accelerate briskly (no need for full throttle, plenty of room to complete the manouevre). And then, car A (the lead car) is indicating right and pulls right across the road in front of me! I brake sharply; check behind (fortunately, still clear) and slot back behind car B. In my mirror, I can see car A has stopped on the gravel verge on the "other" side of the road next to what appears to be a (farm) field gate.
It could have been a lot worse; nothing damaged but my pride. Still, I reckon there must be something to learn from this - so over to you!
p.s. there is nothing obvious on the road (paint, kerbs, etc) to indicate the presence of the gate - it's a good 6 - 8 ft back from the road behind the uniform gravel verge. In all the times I've travelled that road before, I have never even noticed it.
I was driving along a flat , straight dual carridgeway in the left hand lane at a constant 70, around midday on a beautiful summers day and the roads were extremely quiet. In the right hand land lane behind me there was a VW passat towing a motorbike on a trailer (I knew this from when I passed him because he was slower up the hills) who I saw was gradually catching me up from a long way back- he was in the right hand lane for a good few miles with no need to be as there was no other traffic, I guess from a long way back he had decided to pass me.
Anyway, a while later there is a roundabout, with the dual carridgeway continuing on the other side. There is no left exit so staight ahead is the first exit, the second exit is a minor road on the right. I could see over the roundabout, no other traffic, I knew I could continue (I'm going to go straight on, still in the left hand lane). I had realised a little while back that due to the VW approach speeds that he would be along side or just behind me in the right head lane by the time we entered the roundabout.
The reason this sticks in my head is because of what happens next, he overtakes me on the roundabout and by the exit the front of his car is 4-5 metres ahead of mine. Then without indication he trys to pull into my lane, in quite a natural kind of drift from the right hand lane. I brake heavily, sound horn, avoid contact with his rear quarter and he swerves back into the correct lane. He doesn't complete the overtake, pulls in behind and slows - he looked quite shaken up. I assume that he had a momentary lack of concentration, kind of like he somehow felt he had definitely made the overtake a long time earlier, that his exit speed was much greater than he thought it was or that after passing me I no longer existed, he would not have been able to pull into the left hand lane in front of me like that even if he had not had a trailer, he was just not far enough ahead of me.
I wasn't too happy when we approached the roundabout about the possibility of us going through it side by side, especially as I knew he was towing, in a situation like that should I have slowed more, letting him to pass before we entered the roundabout? Any other advice for the above scenario? (sorry it is so long winded, just wanted to make sure it was clear)
Anyway, a while later there is a roundabout, with the dual carridgeway continuing on the other side. There is no left exit so staight ahead is the first exit, the second exit is a minor road on the right. I could see over the roundabout, no other traffic, I knew I could continue (I'm going to go straight on, still in the left hand lane). I had realised a little while back that due to the VW approach speeds that he would be along side or just behind me in the right head lane by the time we entered the roundabout.
The reason this sticks in my head is because of what happens next, he overtakes me on the roundabout and by the exit the front of his car is 4-5 metres ahead of mine. Then without indication he trys to pull into my lane, in quite a natural kind of drift from the right hand lane. I brake heavily, sound horn, avoid contact with his rear quarter and he swerves back into the correct lane. He doesn't complete the overtake, pulls in behind and slows - he looked quite shaken up. I assume that he had a momentary lack of concentration, kind of like he somehow felt he had definitely made the overtake a long time earlier, that his exit speed was much greater than he thought it was or that after passing me I no longer existed, he would not have been able to pull into the left hand lane in front of me like that even if he had not had a trailer, he was just not far enough ahead of me.
I wasn't too happy when we approached the roundabout about the possibility of us going through it side by side, especially as I knew he was towing, in a situation like that should I have slowed more, letting him to pass before we entered the roundabout? Any other advice for the above scenario? (sorry it is so long winded, just wanted to make sure it was clear)
lazy_b said:
Story about an overtake gone bad.
This is one of the reasons I don't advocate the "overtaking" or "contact" position. There are, of course, many on here who will disagree with me, including VH, but there are also many Police driving schools who agree with me.
The contact position, as you call it, momentarily reduces your view too much in my opinion, and can lead to situations such as yours. One element was missing from your story - you didn't say whether the overtake was off a left-hander or a right-hander. Off a right-hander, I will momentarily close the following position up to about 1 1/2 seconds to get an early view off the bend, but any closer than that and you risk missing something vital, such as an indicator on a vehicle 2 cars in front.
Now, it's difficult to say whether your positioning made the situation worse without actually being there - I had a very similar experience a couple of months ago when someone suddenly decided to stop on the offside without any prior warning whatsoever, just as I was about to pass them. Sometimes, even if you're very experienced and well practised, the numptys can catch you out, but in your case, you managed to salvage the situation without having an accident, so you've dealt with it well.
I just wonder if your close position contributed to it at all?
beyond rational said:
Story about some roundabout woes.
The other driver sounds as though they were primarily to blame for the incident, but one thing you should always consider when you're approaching a roundabout side-by-side with anything articulated is that you really don't want to be along side it on the roundabout. It's usually the other way round - driver in car trying to make progress gets stuffed when alongside the offside of HGV on roundabout - but the principle is the same.
On the approach to a roundabout with two lanes, if there's something articulated (lorry, car with trailer, weekend Gypsy, etc) then you should be planning to go on to the roundabout either in front of it or behind it - never alongside it.
Now, I accept that the other driver in your case, was the one making the progress and should have compensated for your position, but I've said it loads of times before - it doesn't really matter who is at fault if you've had a bump, so you're always better avoiding them. Taking off a little extra speed to allow the other driver on to the roundabout first would have avoided the situation arising. Granted, you'd be compensating for someone else's error, but that's a big part of advanced driving.
There are a couple of situations I've come across recently on several occasions that I'd appreciate comments on (not entirely sure if this is the right thread as it's not a specific event). Firstly, and ISTR Reg commenting on this elsewhere, people who make assumptions about the speed at which you're travelling around a roundabout. It seems quite a lot of people assume that you will be travelling around the roundabout at a speed at which they would and feel they have plenty of time to pull onto the roundabout right in front of you. I presume all you can do is reduce speed around the roundabout and there isn't really anything else such as better positioning to alleviate this?
The other seems to be becoming more common - cars on rural roads at night on dipped beam headlights. On coming up behind a vehicle like this and wanting to pass them it's often impossible to get a clear enough view past them to see if the overtake is on or not. The choice often seems to be between sitting behind them, or risking dazzling them with the use of full beam from behind.
The other seems to be becoming more common - cars on rural roads at night on dipped beam headlights. On coming up behind a vehicle like this and wanting to pass them it's often impossible to get a clear enough view past them to see if the overtake is on or not. The choice often seems to be between sitting behind them, or risking dazzling them with the use of full beam from behind.
LexSport said:
On coming up behind a vehicle like this and wanting to pass them it's often impossible to get a clear enough view past them to see if the overtake is on or not. The choice often seems to be between sitting behind them, or risking dazzling them with the use of full beam from behind.
Being a night truck driver I'm usually the the one that people catch up to so I always where possible put my main beam on to give the guy behind a good long view, thats very good of me isn't it, do I get a wave of thanks, er never.
But I'll keep doing it, I live in hope.
R_U_LOCAL said:
lazy_b said:
Story about an overtake gone bad.
This is one of the reasons I don't advocate the "overtaking" or "contact" position. There are, of course, many on here who will disagree with me, including VH, but there are also many Police driving schools who agree with me.
The contact position, as you call it, momentarily reduces your view too much in my opinion, and can lead to situations such as yours. One element was missing from your story - you didn't say whether the overtake was off a left-hander or a right-hander. Off a right-hander, I will momentarily close the following position up to about 1 1/2 seconds to get an early view off the bend, but any closer than that and you risk missing something vital, such as an indicator on a vehicle 2 cars in front.
Now, it's difficult to say whether your positioning made the situation worse without actually being there - I had a very similar experience a couple of months ago when someone suddenly decided to stop on the offside without any prior warning whatsoever, just as I was about to pass them. Sometimes, even if you're very experienced and well practised, the numptys can catch you out, but in your case, you managed to salvage the situation without having an accident, so you've dealt with it well.
I just wonder if your close position contributed to it at all?
Sounds to me from the description, that the decision was a little too pre-determined because of prior knowledge of the road (as per your "familiarity breeds complacency" thread Reg), rather than to do with contact position per se.
You go from "contact" to "holding" offside where you should be scanning for n/s & o/s hazards (options) ahead, before committing. You have to give yourself time to perform the scans & if the delay in doing that means the overtaking opportunity is lost, so be it. Drop in & back.
Any doubt = don't go.
As I say, sounds more like relying too much on previous knowledge of the road & insufficient scans than anything else.
Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 1st May 21:09
I was driving south on the M6 in a 16 tonner quite a few years ago, as I got 50 yards from one of the service stations with a short sharp off ramp a Rover car shot past me in lane 2 realised he wanted the off ramp, braked heavy while moving into my lane, there was a bigger truck right up behind me so I didn't brake at 100%, I hit the car this is the result.
I didn't brake 100% because the guy behind would, I am convinced rammed me and made a bad situation worse. Sometimes IMO you have to take the lesser of 2 evils, do you agree with this or do you think I should have tried harder to miss the car but put the other trucker in the morgue.
PS I didn't get charged with anything by the police.
I didn't brake 100% because the guy behind would, I am convinced rammed me and made a bad situation worse. Sometimes IMO you have to take the lesser of 2 evils, do you agree with this or do you think I should have tried harder to miss the car but put the other trucker in the morgue.
PS I didn't get charged with anything by the police.
Edited by slowly slowly on Tuesday 1st May 20:59
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