Question about overtaking.
Discussion
GreenV8S said:
vonhosen said:
As I said, if we do it on the basis of what the masses each interpret it as, we can re-write lane discipline, remove indicators, have rather more commonly used hand gestures that aren't just applicable to driving etc.
Is the English language defined by the grammar books, or the people who speak it? If I send you a signal it means whatever we agree it means.
When you give a signal, it is not a matter of consulting the 'code book' and picking the signal that fits your message, it's a matter of considering what interpretation the person/people receiving the signal are likely to place on it.
In my experience a headlamp flash is widely accepted to have specific meanings in certain circumstances. A very common one is to tell somebody in conflict with you that you are prepared to give them precedence. If you are approaching somebody waiting to turn across in front of you and you flash your headlamps, it should come as no surprise at all if they took that as an invitation to pull out in front of you. According to the HC that flash should only be interpreted as "I'm here" but in practice it means something very different. Given that it does mean that, regardless of what the HC says to the contrary, shouldn't the HC be changed to reflect this?
What's best for clarity is that we should all speak the same language.
The highway code is clear on that with rule 91 & it's advice is sound.
Highway Code Rule 91 said:
If another driver flashes his headlights never assume that it is a signal to go. Use your own judgement and proceed carefully.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 21st April 20:02
GreenV8S said:
vonhosen said:
What's best for clarity is that we should all speak the same language.
We do. Just not the language described in the HC.
We don't all speak the same language then. Because I don't use the headlamp flash to afford people precedence & I certainly don't use it as a rebuke as some people are advocating as fine here.
Well said.
Unfortunately the language of the thoughtful motorist is becoming more and more restricted, because too many motorists are prone to misinterpret well documented signals.
If headlight use is widely perceived to be an invitation, instead of a warning of presence, then the correct usage will fall out of use...
WilliBetz
Unfortunately the language of the thoughtful motorist is becoming more and more restricted, because too many motorists are prone to misinterpret well documented signals.
If headlight use is widely perceived to be an invitation, instead of a warning of presence, then the correct usage will fall out of use...
WilliBetz
willibetz said:
Well said.
Unfortunately the language of the thoughtful motorist is becoming more and more restricted, because too many motorists are prone to misinterpret well documented signals.
If headlight use is widely perceived to be an invitation, instead of a warning of presence, then the correct usage will fall out of use...
WilliBetz
Unfortunately the language of the thoughtful motorist is becoming more and more restricted, because too many motorists are prone to misinterpret well documented signals.
If headlight use is widely perceived to be an invitation, instead of a warning of presence, then the correct usage will fall out of use...
WilliBetz
Try using hand signals in a car and see how many people have even half a clue what they mean.
Then you'll see what I mean about driving being a constantly evolving art.
vonhosen said:
We don't all speak the same language then. Because I don't use the headlamp flash to afford people precedence & I certainly don't use it as a rebuke as some people are advocating as fine here.
This is my point. What you described is exactly as per HC (no surprise), but ime the vast majority of the motoring public interpret a headlamp flash differently.
Not all uses of a headlamp flash are fine and I didn't mean to suggest that it was OK to use it as a rebuke. However, there are several conventional uses which are in contradiction to the HC but which are fine imo. In particular, the meaning of "I'm happy for you to have precedence over me" is so widespread that it is almost universal. I would say that somebody using a headlamp flash to mean "I am here" in a situation where it might be reasonable to give precedence is being misleading; it's extremely likely that a typical driver would interpret this as giving precedence. The fact that this meaning is contrary to the HC is imo no defence at all.
GreenV8S said:
vonhosen said:
We don't all speak the same language then. Because I don't use the headlamp flash to afford people precedence & I certainly don't use it as a rebuke as some people are advocating as fine here.
This is my point. What you described is exactly as per HC (no surprise), but ime the vast majority of the motoring public interpret a headlamp flash differently.
Not all uses of a headlamp flash are fine and I didn't mean to suggest that it was OK to use it as a rebuke. However, there are several conventional uses which are in contradiction to the HC but which are fine imo. In particular, the meaning of "I'm happy for you to have precedence over me" is so widespread that it is almost universal. I would say that somebody using a headlamp flash to mean "I am here" in a situation where it might be reasonable to give precedence is being misleading; it's extremely likely that a typical driver would interpret this as giving precedence. The fact that this meaning is contrary to the HC is imo no defence at all.
Your last sentence has me confused, because It sounds at odds with the rest of your post
If you interpret it as someone allowing you precedence when in close proximity to them, where they infact are giving it as per the HC for fear that your actions lead them to believe you may not have seen them. Then the likely outcome may be a fault collision for you.
If I were dealing with such a collision, there would be a strong possibility of you being reported for without due care.
GreenV8S said:
Not all uses of a headlamp flash are fine and I didn't mean to suggest that it was OK to use it as a rebuke. However, there are several conventional uses which are in contradiction to the HC but which are fine imo. In particular, the meaning of "I'm happy for you to have precedence over me" is so widespread that it is almost universal. I would say that somebody using a headlamp flash to mean "I am here" in a situation where it might be reasonable to give precedence is being misleading; it's extremely likely that a typical driver would interpret this as giving precedence. The fact that this meaning is contrary to the HC is imo no defence at all.
If the driver is showing no signs of slowing and flashes for two or more seconds it is unlikely that they will be misinterpreted, even by the terminally dim.
R_U_LOCAL said:
willibetz said:
Well said.
Unfortunately the language of the thoughtful motorist is becoming more and more restricted, because too many motorists are prone to misinterpret well documented signals.
If headlight use is widely perceived to be an invitation, instead of a warning of presence, then the correct usage will fall out of use...
WilliBetz
Unfortunately the language of the thoughtful motorist is becoming more and more restricted, because too many motorists are prone to misinterpret well documented signals.
If headlight use is widely perceived to be an invitation, instead of a warning of presence, then the correct usage will fall out of use...
WilliBetz
Try using hand signals in a car and see how many people have even half a clue what they mean.
Then you'll see what I mean about driving being a constantly evolving art.
How many people can accurately tell you what road signs or markings mean, let alone hand signals ?
It never ceases to amaze me how many trafpol are not well versed in common signs/markings.
Driving is an evolving art yes, but that sad state of affairs is not what I'd be describing in such a fashion.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 21st April 23:03
vonhosen said:
How many people can accurately tell you what road signs or markings mean,let alone hand signals ?
It never ceases to amaze me how many trafpol are not well versed in common signs/markings.
Evolving art is not how I'd describe it.
It never ceases to amaze me how many trafpol are not well versed in common signs/markings.
Evolving art is not how I'd describe it.
True story...
I was giving a day 1 lecture to some advanced students and we were discussing motorway signs, and in particular, matrix signs. I drew a rough sketch of this on the board...
One of the students - obviously keen to make an impression - stuck their hand straight up and gave me an answer...
"No vehicles over 11 tons".
They certainly made an impression, that's for sure.
tommundy said:
Can you really say that most people will see a flash of the headlights as "hello, I'm here and I'm going to overtake you" ? I really doubt it, and as R_U_LOCAL has said as I did, if you plan the overtake safely and with high awareness then there is no need for flashes or honks.
Well, if R_U_Local said the same as you, it's game over then!
PS - I didn't say I used a headlamp flash either - just that I can't comprehend an aggressive action from someone closing on me on a SC and indicating thus.
tommundy said:
An example of when a flash is 100% understood by both parties would be something like an instance that happened to me last night. I was progressing along a 3 laned section of motorway, moving into lanes 1,2 and 3 when appropriate and there had been a car behind me making similar progress, I passed some cars that were in lane 2 and pulled back into lane 2 after the manouevre. The car behind didnt pull in but maintained a steady pace in lane 3, and as we approached some slower traffic in lane 2, I checked my mirrors, he maintained his speed, I pulled out and gave a hand up of appreciation and he gave a double flash. Perfect!
Huh? Now I have witnessed people in your position indicating in lane 2 and receiving an "invitation" to get into lane 3 from the following car by means of an inappropriate headlight flash. But flashing you for waving at them?
R_U_LOCAL said:
vonhosen said:
How many people can accurately tell you what road signs or markings mean,let alone hand signals ?
It never ceases to amaze me how many trafpol are not well versed in common signs/markings.
Evolving art is not how I'd describe it.
It never ceases to amaze me how many trafpol are not well versed in common signs/markings.
Evolving art is not how I'd describe it.
True story...
I was giving a day 1 lecture to some advanced students and we were discussing motorway signs, and in particular, matrix signs. I drew a rough sketch of this on the board...
One of the students - obviously keen to make an impression - stuck their hand straight up and gave me an answer...
"No vehicles over 11 tons".
They certainly made an impression, that's for sure.
Well that's put me right on something. In these metricated days I thought it meant tonnes.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
R_U_LOCAL said:
willibetz said:
Well said.
Unfortunately the language of the thoughtful motorist is becoming more and more restricted, because too many motorists are prone to misinterpret well documented signals.
If headlight use is widely perceived to be an invitation, instead of a warning of presence, then the correct usage will fall out of use...
WilliBetz
Unfortunately the language of the thoughtful motorist is becoming more and more restricted, because too many motorists are prone to misinterpret well documented signals.
If headlight use is widely perceived to be an invitation, instead of a warning of presence, then the correct usage will fall out of use...
WilliBetz
Try using hand signals in a car and see how many people have even half a clue what they mean.
Then you'll see what I mean about driving being a constantly evolving art.
Driving is definitely an evolving art, but this is a poor example to prove the point. Evolution suggests progression. What we are talking about here is the loss (through widespread abuse) of some very fine and valuable facets of roadcraft.
As to hand signals, I do (very) occasionally use them. Mainly to reinforce a signal to turn left, if it might give more confidence to a motorist waiting to emerge from the junction. Sometimes to reinforce an indication that I'm going to stop or slow dramatically. Even if the signal isn't understood, my experience is that an arm signal seems to get other road users to pay attention and think.
On the topic of hand signals, when did the courtesy hand signal drop off the Police Advanced course?
WilliBetz
R_U_LOCAL said:
I never give a signal to allow people presidence. That's not to say I never let people out - I'll always leave junctions clear in traffic and I'll regularly allow people out of junctions when its busy. What I don't do is signal them to pull out. It's also something I teach Police Officers not to do. People will blindly pull out of a junction if someone signals them to do so, and if a Police Officer waves them out and they have a bump, they can claim they were following Police directions. Much better just to leave them the space and allow them to make the decision themselves.
OK, the policy within your training regime is not to use the headlight flash to accord precedence to another driver, and you are also not happy to do it in your private motoring either, which is fair enough. We do indeed need to recognise the dangers in flashing (if you know what I mean!) so it should certainly not be done in a spirit of telling another driver what to do. My meaning in using a headlight flash is "I understand what you wish to do, and I'm ready to co-operate; please go ahead if you're happy it is safe to do so.' At the same time we should contrive to have adequate space and time in which the other driver can make his final check before making his move. On that basis I don't feel it is my responsibility either legally or morally if they then make a hash of it. We can't be driving somebody else's car for them, that has to remain their task.
Anyhow, I am mindful of another aspect to this. In the process of giving this type of signal to another driver, we are not only showing that we are aware of them, as of course we should be in any event, we are going beyond this and indicating that we are looking to their interests and wishes, and trying to accommodate and help them. IMHO it therefore promotes a better climate of goodwill and mutual support in our driving environment, and while this is hard to measure and evaluate, it does seem to me to be a useful benefit.
I still therefore feel that attempts should be made to legitimise this form of signal in the HC if we can overcome the concerns about the potential dangers. Whatever our personal views on it, the fact remains that it is now very widely understood and used, and what I feel to be the 'good attitude' aspect of it leads me to conclude that it is doing more good than harm.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
tommundy said:
An example of when a flash is 100% understood by both parties would be something like an instance that happened to me last night. I was progressing along a 3 laned section of motorway, moving into lanes 1,2 and 3 when appropriate and there had been a car behind me making similar progress, I passed some cars that were in lane 2 and pulled back into lane 2 after the manouevre. The car behind didnt pull in but maintained a steady pace in lane 3, and as we approached some slower traffic in lane 2, I checked my mirrors, he maintained his speed, I pulled out and gave a hand up of appreciation and he gave a double flash. Perfect!
Sorry that story went on a bit, just wanted to show the difference between an understandable use of a flash and a very very grey area style of flash.
Cheers
Tom
Sorry that story went on a bit, just wanted to show the difference between an understandable use of a flash and a very very grey area style of flash.
Cheers
Tom
No need to apologise for going on a bit; you should see some of my waffles sometimes!
Anyhow that's a nice little story and it's just the sort of thing that makes my motoring enjoyable. You were both watching out for each other, reaching an understanding and working together splendidly. A bit more of that and and a good deal less of the nonsense from some of the busybody rule makers and we'd do a lot better all round.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Vaux said:
tommundy said:
An example of when a flash is 100% understood by both parties would be something like an instance that happened to me last night. I was progressing along a 3 laned section of motorway, moving into lanes 1,2 and 3 when appropriate and there had been a car behind me making similar progress, I passed some cars that were in lane 2 and pulled back into lane 2 after the manouevre. The car behind didnt pull in but maintained a steady pace in lane 3, and as we approached some slower traffic in lane 2, I checked my mirrors, he maintained his speed, I pulled out and gave a hand up of appreciation and he gave a double flash. Perfect!
Huh? Now I have witnessed people in your position indicating in lane 2 and receiving an "invitation" to get into lane 3 from the following car by means of an inappropriate headlight flash. But flashing you for waving at them?
I think what Tom was describing was all rather nice. He wanted to move back into lane 3 to do further overtaking and the guy behind anticipated that and left room for him. Tom waves to say 'Thanks for your help' and the guy behind gives the double flash to say 'You're welcome.'
In this case AIUI the following driver didn't flash Tom to invite him back into lane 3. He merely held back and left space for Tom to move out.
Anyhow, they both then go on their way with a better feeling as a result of that, which increases the likelihood that they'll be in a mood to offer the same sort of courtesies to other drivers they meeet, and so it can spread from there. It seems good to me.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Edited by TripleS on Sunday 22 April 10:11
TripleS said:
7db said:
vonhosen said:
We use it appropriately where we are looking to make safe legal progress past others, as a means to make them aware of our presence & other people who wish to drive at similar progress levels to us (all be it illegally) may seek to use it for the same reasons/benefits that we did.
But if you happen to be one of those people who drive with headlights on dipped beam all the time, does this not reduce the effectiveness of a headlight flash in daylight conditions?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Possibly. But then I don't care how they see me, as long as they do.
TripleS said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
I never give a signal to allow people presidence. That's not to say I never let people out - I'll always leave junctions clear in traffic and I'll regularly allow people out of junctions when its busy. What I don't do is signal them to pull out. It's also something I teach Police Officers not to do. People will blindly pull out of a junction if someone signals them to do so, and if a Police Officer waves them out and they have a bump, they can claim they were following Police directions. Much better just to leave them the space and allow them to make the decision themselves.
OK, the policy within your training regime is not to use the headlight flash to accord precedence to another driver, and you are also not happy to do it in your private motoring either, which is fair enough. We do indeed need to recognise the dangers in flashing (if you know what I mean!) so it should certainly not be done in a spirit of telling another driver what to do. My meaning in using a headlight flash is "I understand what you wish to do, and I'm ready to co-operate; please go ahead if you're happy it is safe to do so.' At the same time we should contrive to have adequate space and time in which the other driver can make his final check before making his move. On that basis I don't feel it is my responsibility either legally or morally if they then make a hash of it. We can't be driving somebody else's car for them, that has to remain their task.
Anyhow, I am mindful of another aspect to this. In the process of giving this type of signal to another driver, we are not only showing that we are aware of them, as of course we should be in any event, we are going beyond this and indicating that we are looking to their interests and wishes, and trying to accommodate and help them. IMHO it therefore promotes a better climate of goodwill and mutual support in our driving environment, and while this is hard to measure and evaluate, it does seem to me to be a useful benefit.
I still therefore feel that attempts should be made to legitimise this form of signal in the HC if we can overcome the concerns about the potential dangers. Whatever our personal views on it, the fact remains that it is now very widely understood and used, and what I feel to be the 'good attitude' aspect of it leads me to conclude that it is doing more good than harm.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
The difficulty in that, is that the two uses (official sanctioned one & what you are suggesting) are almost diametrically opposed. That can only breed confusion & greater risk. The highway code mentions both those uses specifically in rules 90 & 91.
Signals are far more about caution rather than it being good to go.
Even a green light has a rider attached of "if clear"
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