Discussion
okay, my last couple of cars have been RWD, and especially with the 911, I have gotten used to setting the car up before the corner, and then balancing it through the bend on the steering and throttle before accelerating out.
Now, being a pro-active type of driver, i'd be interested to know if there is any difference with 4WD, as im getting my first all wheel drive car shortly, and while having driven, but never owned, them, i've never had the opportunity to try and discover the best balance, and thought this was the place to look for tips.
Now, being a pro-active type of driver, i'd be interested to know if there is any difference with 4WD, as im getting my first all wheel drive car shortly, and while having driven, but never owned, them, i've never had the opportunity to try and discover the best balance, and thought this was the place to look for tips.
Fidgits said:
okay, my last couple of cars have been RWD, and especially with the 911, I have gotten used to setting the car up before the corner, and then balancing it through the bend on the steering and throttle before accelerating out.
Now, being a pro-active type of driver, i'd be interested to know if there is any difference with 4WD, as im getting my first all wheel drive car shortly, and while having driven, but never owned, them, i've never had the opportunity to try and discover the best balance, and thought this was the place to look for tips.
Now, being a pro-active type of driver, i'd be interested to know if there is any difference with 4WD, as im getting my first all wheel drive car shortly, and while having driven, but never owned, them, i've never had the opportunity to try and discover the best balance, and thought this was the place to look for tips.
What sort of 4WD car are you getting - it'll make it easier to answer your question, as the techniques for off-road type cars are different from 4WD sports type cars.
R_U_LOCAL said:
Fidgits said:
okay, my last couple of cars have been RWD, and especially with the 911, I have gotten used to setting the car up before the corner, and then balancing it through the bend on the steering and throttle before accelerating out.
Now, being a pro-active type of driver, i'd be interested to know if there is any difference with 4WD, as im getting my first all wheel drive car shortly, and while having driven, but never owned, them, i've never had the opportunity to try and discover the best balance, and thought this was the place to look for tips.
Now, being a pro-active type of driver, i'd be interested to know if there is any difference with 4WD, as im getting my first all wheel drive car shortly, and while having driven, but never owned, them, i've never had the opportunity to try and discover the best balance, and thought this was the place to look for tips.
What sort of 4WD car are you getting - it'll make it easier to answer your question, as the techniques for off-road type cars are different from 4WD sports type cars.
Just a S3 - front engine, quattro system - no elastic trickery.
I dont imagine it takes any special approach, i was just curious if you should approach corners more like a FWD or RWD, or something different?
Fidgits said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
Fidgits said:
okay, my last couple of cars have been RWD, and especially with the 911, I have gotten used to setting the car up before the corner, and then balancing it through the bend on the steering and throttle before accelerating out.
Now, being a pro-active type of driver, i'd be interested to know if there is any difference with 4WD, as im getting my first all wheel drive car shortly, and while having driven, but never owned, them, i've never had the opportunity to try and discover the best balance, and thought this was the place to look for tips.
Now, being a pro-active type of driver, i'd be interested to know if there is any difference with 4WD, as im getting my first all wheel drive car shortly, and while having driven, but never owned, them, i've never had the opportunity to try and discover the best balance, and thought this was the place to look for tips.
What sort of 4WD car are you getting - it'll make it easier to answer your question, as the techniques for off-road type cars are different from 4WD sports type cars.
Just a S3 - front engine, quattro system - no elastic trickery.
I dont imagine it takes any special approach, i was just curious if you should approach corners more like a FWD or RWD, or something different?
As a general rule, 4WD versions of cars which are based on a 2WD platform tend to handle in a similar way as the 2WD version at their limits. So, the old 4X4 Sierras had a tendency to oversteer at the limit, and your S3, being based on a FWD platform, will have a tendency to understeer at the limit. Having said that, manufacturers can give uneven torque split between front and rear which can alter the cars on-limit tendencies. A quick google shows that the S3 has more torque going to the rear wheels than to the front, so if you're as rough as a bears arse with it, it'll be possible to induce oversteer, but I suspect you'd need some psychiatric help if you did that on the road.
The most noticeable differences with 4WD sports cars is their traction from a standing start, and their ability to accelerate out of corners. You'll have to be careful on roundabouts, as it's very easy to drive around them at a higher speed than you're familiar with - and more importantly, a higher speed than other drivers are familiar with. When I bought my first Impreza, I noticed that a lot more people seemed to pull out in front of me on roundabouts. After giving it some thought, I realised that it was because I was driving at a higher speed around the roundabouts than they were expecting.
There is very little wheelspin in 4WD cars, so a fast start will be a very fast start, with little fuss or drama - just a huge shove forwards. You have to be mechanically sympathetic towards the driveline though, as any excess power is usually spun away through the clutch rather than the tyres, which can get expensive if you have a leaning towards traffic light grands prix.
As for approaching corners, just go for the slow-in-quick-out approach. Your new car will have excellent accelerative grip through a corner, so you can afford to lose a little more speed going in to the corner because it will have more ability to put the power down through and out of the corner.
As for any other techniques - well, a friend of mine has just bought one and he loves it. He's bugging me for a days lesson, so I'll be having a go in it over the next few weeks and I'll be able to report back then.
Other than that, as with any other car, take your time, build up your experience with it, and enjoy!
When in doubt, power out! generally if you get it sideways with 4wd stay fairly hard on the gas and keep the front wheels pointed where you want to go and they just pull themselves out again.
Audis have more of a reputation for understeer when pushed as the engine is quite far forward so you may find braking later and deeper into corners to keep the front tyres loaded up helps you drive around this.
4wd cars are at their most stable under power, so a brief lift or dab on the brakes is usually a better way to get past understeer than putting the boot in like you might with RWD. That said, you can still provoke 4-wheel drifts under power if its a bit slippy, if you set the car up for the corner and get your timing right.
ETA: the other way to get around understeer is the scandinavian flick, but you tend to et some funny looks doing that on public roads
Audis have more of a reputation for understeer when pushed as the engine is quite far forward so you may find braking later and deeper into corners to keep the front tyres loaded up helps you drive around this.
4wd cars are at their most stable under power, so a brief lift or dab on the brakes is usually a better way to get past understeer than putting the boot in like you might with RWD. That said, you can still provoke 4-wheel drifts under power if its a bit slippy, if you set the car up for the corner and get your timing right.
ETA: the other way to get around understeer is the scandinavian flick, but you tend to et some funny looks doing that on public roads
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 1st May 00:03
R_U_LOCAL said:
You'll have to be careful on roundabouts, as it's very easy to drive around them at a higher speed than you're familiar with - and more importantly, a higher speed than other drivers are familiar with. When I bought my first Impreza, I noticed that a lot more people seemed to pull out in front of me on roundabouts. After giving it some thought, I realised that it was because I was driving at a higher speed around the roundabouts than they were expecting.
I'll echo that! I found that even when not pushing on, every time I came away from a roundabout, traffic that had previously been keeping me company was now far behind (excepting one Maserati that was clearly unimpressed with an Impreza!). Conversely, when following traffic, I found myself wondering why they were so slow. I had consciously to allow for the fact that vehicles joining roundabouts where I had right of way were quite liable to underestimate my speed and pull out in front of me. Unless visibility was particularly good, I learned to slow down on the approach more than I would otherwise have done.
As evil as generalisations are, generally 4wd dulls a sharp chassis. The amount of time 4wd has an advantage over 2wd traction you can count on the fingers of one hand, per annum.
One of the great unexplained myths surrounding Porsche for me, is why on earth they have ever bothered with 4wd for models with less than 300 bhp. Their 2wd cars don't have a traction problem.
Having said that, their 4wd drive system is so very good now, largely because it reverts to 2wd a lot of the time.
Take any 4wd on a circuit and it's relatively witless.
Which is why there are no 4wd drive race cars.
IMHO 4wd is not a driver's tool, till you go on loose surfaces or over 600 bhp maybe.
Rather like left foot braking, a complete red herring.
Again IMHO.
One of the great unexplained myths surrounding Porsche for me, is why on earth they have ever bothered with 4wd for models with less than 300 bhp. Their 2wd cars don't have a traction problem.
Having said that, their 4wd drive system is so very good now, largely because it reverts to 2wd a lot of the time.
Take any 4wd on a circuit and it's relatively witless.
Which is why there are no 4wd drive race cars.
IMHO 4wd is not a driver's tool, till you go on loose surfaces or over 600 bhp maybe.
Rather like left foot braking, a complete red herring.
Again IMHO.
ph123 said:
As evil as generalisations are, generally 4wd dulls a sharp chassis. The amount of time 4wd has an advantage over 2wd traction you can count on the fingers of one hand, per annum.
One of the great unexplained myths surrounding Porsche for me, is why on earth they have ever bothered with 4wd for models with less than 300 bhp. Their 2wd cars don't have a traction problem.
Having said that, their 4wd drive system is so very good now, largely because it reverts to 2wd a lot of the time.
Take any 4wd on a circuit and it's relatively witless.
Which is why there are no 4wd drive race cars.
IMHO 4wd is not a driver's tool, till you go on loose surfaces or over 600 bhp maybe.
Rather like left foot braking, a complete red herring.
Again IMHO.
One of the great unexplained myths surrounding Porsche for me, is why on earth they have ever bothered with 4wd for models with less than 300 bhp. Their 2wd cars don't have a traction problem.
Having said that, their 4wd drive system is so very good now, largely because it reverts to 2wd a lot of the time.
Take any 4wd on a circuit and it's relatively witless.
Which is why there are no 4wd drive race cars.
IMHO 4wd is not a driver's tool, till you go on loose surfaces or over 600 bhp maybe.
Rather like left foot braking, a complete red herring.
Again IMHO.
Sorry mate, but IMO thats utter b0ll0cks.
4wd may dull a sharp RWD chassis, but given the OP is talking about an Audi S3, I don't think 4wd dulling the fwd A3 chassis is very likely.
The amount of time 4wd has an advantage over 2wd traction I can count one one hand, some days. A lot of days I need more hands. It depends what sort of roads you drive on, how you drive, and what the weathers like.
Fair point about 4wd Porsches with sub-300 bhp (if there are any), the rear-engine layout gives plenty of traction anyway, but I guess 4wd is more idiot-proof for those who buy them for the badge rather than the drive.
Have you ever tried driving a 4wd on a circuit? It requires a different driving style, but it would have to be a pretty poor system to be 'witless'
There are 4wd race cars, and they do pretty well when they're allowed to race against 2wds - remember the Audi A4 quattros having to carry ballast in BTCC, or the Skyline GTRs which were banned from ATCC/Bathurst? 4wd wasn't the only issue with banning the Skylines, but they did piss on everything in the wet.
4wd is a drivers tool (eg in the same way an lsd is), it has its biggest advantage over 2wd in loose/wet/slippy conditions for sure, and may not be as entertaining as a good RWD when you're in the mood for it, but for all-round competence in any conditions it wins hands-down.
Left-foot braking? Not necessary on the road for sure, but you try telling Walter Rohrl that its a red herring...
Edited by GravelBen on Wednesday 2nd May 08:06
Okay, i didnt really want to get into the 4WD argurment - i preffered it to FWD and the S3 was the right car at the right time.
The 911 is a 2WD, and yes, i prefer RWD for a 'driving experience', but for an all rounder I see nothing wrong with 4WD, and im not interested in driving dynamics, just what to expect when I press on and any tricks to avoid ending up in a hedge.
The 911 is a 2WD, and yes, i prefer RWD for a 'driving experience', but for an all rounder I see nothing wrong with 4WD, and im not interested in driving dynamics, just what to expect when I press on and any tricks to avoid ending up in a hedge.
'Expect' dull understeer.
Go too fast, more dull understeer.
Unless slippery or serious power, dull understeer.
The only benefit I can recall was better stability in very heavy wet conditions at high speed.
(All those 4 wheel drive racers were engineered to sell 4wd. Bet 2wd versions would have been better. Loose surfaces or 300 + bhp as I said, changes everything. Interesting though.)
Go too fast, more dull understeer.
Unless slippery or serious power, dull understeer.
The only benefit I can recall was better stability in very heavy wet conditions at high speed.
(All those 4 wheel drive racers were engineered to sell 4wd. Bet 2wd versions would have been better. Loose surfaces or 300 + bhp as I said, changes everything. Interesting though.)
ph123 said:
'Expect' dull understeer.
Go too fast, more dull understeer.
Unless slippery or serious power, dull understeer.
The only benefit I can recall was better stability in very heavy wet conditions at high speed.
(All those 4 wheel drive racers were engineered to sell 4wd. Bet 2wd versions would have been better. Loose surfaces or 300 + bhp as I said, changes everything. Interesting though.)
Go too fast, more dull understeer.
Unless slippery or serious power, dull understeer.
The only benefit I can recall was better stability in very heavy wet conditions at high speed.
(All those 4 wheel drive racers were engineered to sell 4wd. Bet 2wd versions would have been better. Loose surfaces or 300 + bhp as I said, changes everything. Interesting though.)
the thing is, when someone is pretty much a dull scratched record, and just spouting the same unhelpful crap time and time again, no-one pays attention to what they were saying
no matter how accurate it might actually be 
Fidgits said:
ph123 said:
'Expect' dull understeer.
Go too fast, more dull understeer.
Unless slippery or serious power, dull understeer.
The only benefit I can recall was better stability in very heavy wet conditions at high speed.
(All those 4 wheel drive racers were engineered to sell 4wd. Bet 2wd versions would have been better. Loose surfaces or 300 + bhp as I said, changes everything. Interesting though.)
Go too fast, more dull understeer.
Unless slippery or serious power, dull understeer.
The only benefit I can recall was better stability in very heavy wet conditions at high speed.
(All those 4 wheel drive racers were engineered to sell 4wd. Bet 2wd versions would have been better. Loose surfaces or 300 + bhp as I said, changes everything. Interesting though.)
the thing is, when someone is pretty much a dull scratched record, and just spouting the same unhelpful crap time and time again, no-one pays attention to what they were saying
no matter how accurate it might actually be 911 C4 with PSM isn't dull
ph123 said:
'Expect' dull understeer.
Go too fast, more dull understeer.
Unless slippery or serious power, dull understeer.
The only benefit I can recall was better stability in very heavy wet conditions at high speed.
Go too fast, more dull understeer.
Unless slippery or serious power, dull understeer.
The only benefit I can recall was better stability in very heavy wet conditions at high speed.
Well my car is significantly less than 300 bhp (155), and has much less dull understeer than fwd equivalents. Yes there is designed-in understeer, just like any modern 'normal' car. You drive around it, its not that hard. And yes, if driven right (ie too fast and quite committed) you can get oversteer happening even when its not slippery. Generally its fairly neutral though.
ph123 said:
(All those 4 wheel drive racers were engineered to sell 4wd. Bet 2wd versions would have been better. Loose surfaces or 300 + bhp as I said, changes everything. Interesting though.)
4wd racecars engineered to sell 4wd?
the R31 Skyline was RWD, they started racing the R32 GTR (4wd) because it was a better racecar, and to sell Nissans yes but not just 4wd (it was above 300 bhp yes, but not above the 600 you said before 
.) And iirc when the switched to 2wd Audi A4 touring cars because the quattros were getting penalised too much the BMWs started beating them. :yawn: Going back to OP, if its a haldex system in the S3 it may reward giving some pretty heavy right foot through corners to make it transfer power to the rear. Feels a bit weird when you first feel the torque transfer with systems like that but its effective. One technique with the adaptive systems is instead of late/trailbraking, get off the brakes and hard on the gas at turn-in instead of apex. If your entry speed isn't too fast they just tuck themselves in and go round like they're on rails.
Edited by GravelBen on Wednesday 2nd May 13:27
Failing that, ask angryS3owner how his car handles.
I had a similiar discussion with him ages ago about torsen (which I have in my S2) and haldex (which he has in his S3). I asked him if the car becomes unsettled when stamps his right foot down when the car understeers slightly so that power transfers to the back and his answer was a pretty plain and simple no.
I figured that he maybe wasnt that brutal with the controls which is why the car never felt unsettled but I can report that he is far from gentle with the car!
I have to say I love my car and its characteristics, especially when driving along country lanes as I have alot of grip through corners, I can put the power on very early and I can correct the line I take without dying.
I had a similiar discussion with him ages ago about torsen (which I have in my S2) and haldex (which he has in his S3). I asked him if the car becomes unsettled when stamps his right foot down when the car understeers slightly so that power transfers to the back and his answer was a pretty plain and simple no.
I figured that he maybe wasnt that brutal with the controls which is why the car never felt unsettled but I can report that he is far from gentle with the car!
I have to say I love my car and its characteristics, especially when driving along country lanes as I have alot of grip through corners, I can put the power on very early and I can correct the line I take without dying.
GravelBen said:
ph123 said:
As evil as generalisations are, generally 4wd dulls a sharp chassis. The amount of time 4wd has an advantage over 2wd traction you can count on the fingers of one hand, per annum.
One of the great unexplained myths surrounding Porsche for me, is why on earth they have ever bothered with 4wd for models with less than 300 bhp. Their 2wd cars don't have a traction problem.
Having said that, their 4wd drive system is so very good now, largely because it reverts to 2wd a lot of the time.
Take any 4wd on a circuit and it's relatively witless.
Which is why there are no 4wd drive race cars.
IMHO 4wd is not a driver's tool, till you go on loose surfaces or over 600 bhp maybe.
Rather like left foot braking, a complete red herring.
Again IMHO.
One of the great unexplained myths surrounding Porsche for me, is why on earth they have ever bothered with 4wd for models with less than 300 bhp. Their 2wd cars don't have a traction problem.
Having said that, their 4wd drive system is so very good now, largely because it reverts to 2wd a lot of the time.
Take any 4wd on a circuit and it's relatively witless.
Which is why there are no 4wd drive race cars.
IMHO 4wd is not a driver's tool, till you go on loose surfaces or over 600 bhp maybe.
Rather like left foot braking, a complete red herring.
Again IMHO.
Sorry mate, but IMO thats utter b0ll0cks.
4wd may dull a sharp RWD chassis, but given the OP is talking about an Audi S3, I don't think 4wd dulling the fwd A3 chassis is very likely.
The amount of time 4wd has an advantage over 2wd traction I can count one one hand, some days. A lot of days I need more hands. It depends what sort of roads you drive on, how you drive, and what the weathers like.
Fair point about 4wd Porsches with sub-300 bhp (if there are any), the rear-engine layout gives plenty of traction anyway, but I guess 4wd is more idiot-proof for those who buy them for the badge rather than the drive.
Have you ever tried driving a 4wd on a circuit? It requires a different driving style, but it would have to be a pretty poor system to be 'witless'
There are 4wd race cars, and they do pretty well when they're allowed to race against 2wds - remember the Audi A4 quattros having to carry ballast in BTCC, or the Skyline GTRs which were banned from ATCC/Bathurst? 4wd wasn't the only issue with banning the Skylines, but they did piss on everything in the wet.
4wd is a drivers tool (eg in the same way an lsd is), it has its biggest advantage over 2wd in loose/wet/slippy conditions for sure, and may not be as entertaining as a good RWD when you're in the mood for it, but for all-round competence in any conditions it wins hands-down.
Left-foot braking? Not necessary on the road for sure, but you try telling Walter Rohrl that its a red herring...
Edited by GravelBen on Wednesday 2nd May 08:06
Agree
4WD - The ultimate for safe rapid road progress in all road conditions
Predictable progressive understear on the limits of grip makes for good progress
Left-foot braking? Not necessary on the road for sure, but you try telling Walter Rohrl that its a red herring...
Well said LOL
I do really like Audis - haldex is a part time 4wd system.
The older haldex systems are reactive - the wheels have to slip by a certain % (somewhere between 10-20%) in order for the system to kick in.
Newer systems as found on modern Porkers (It all originates from Audi at the end of the day) are proactive and kick in before the slide. However I dont like cars driving themselves!
Despite all that I have a big thing for RS2s
I personaly prefer the 50-50 PERMANENT front rear split of a classic scooby with plain old viscous diffs. (simple but effective) Your brain is the computer - not the car.
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