Discussion
scoobman said:
I personaly prefer the 50-50 PERMANENT front rear split of a classic scooby with plain old viscous diffs. (simple but effective) Your brain is the computer - not the car.
The best car AWD system I've ever driven/experienced is the 64r/36f DCCD setup in the type-R and RA Imprezas - it pretty much removes the understeer from the equation, just leaving you with excellent chassis balance and traction. And if you're on very slippy stuff and finding it a bit sideways and not enough traction, just use the little dial beside the handbrake to lock up the centre diff
GravelBen said:
When in doubt, power out! generally if you get it sideways with 4wd stay fairly hard on the gas and keep the front wheels pointed where you want to go and they just pull themselves out again.
Audis have more of a reputation for understeer when pushed as the engine is quite far forward so you may find braking later and deeper into corners to keep the front tyres loaded up helps you drive around this.
4wd cars are at their most stable under power, so a brief lift or dab on the brakes is usually a better way to get past understeer than putting the boot in like you might with RWD. That said, you can still provoke 4-wheel drifts under power if its a bit slippy, if you set the car up for the corner and get your timing right.
ETA: the other way to get around understeer is the scandinavian flick, but you tend to et some funny looks doing that on public roads
Audis have more of a reputation for understeer when pushed as the engine is quite far forward so you may find braking later and deeper into corners to keep the front tyres loaded up helps you drive around this.
4wd cars are at their most stable under power, so a brief lift or dab on the brakes is usually a better way to get past understeer than putting the boot in like you might with RWD. That said, you can still provoke 4-wheel drifts under power if its a bit slippy, if you set the car up for the corner and get your timing right.
ETA: the other way to get around understeer is the scandinavian flick, but you tend to et some funny looks doing that on public roads
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 1st May 00:03
Hadn't come across Scandinavian Flick before. Must require balls of steel to turn the opposite way to the corner first! I found this old Top Gear vid on it:
here
Time was, when the original Audis with 4WD came on the motoring scene, folks were saying this was the way forward.
What happened?
Cost, manufacturing and therefore user, fuel consumption penalties, who knows?
Me, I love my Scooby.
Laws of physics still apply though.
Oh and sheet ice defeats all.
What happened?
Cost, manufacturing and therefore user, fuel consumption penalties, who knows?
Me, I love my Scooby.
Laws of physics still apply though.
Oh and sheet ice defeats all.
The problem ith 4wd is that it is very difficult to generalise and you will have to learn the limit characteristics (in the appropriate environment). I have lived with 2 4wd sports cars, the impreza P1 and Evo VIII. I have also driven several other imprezas of different generations.
So P1 - generally good, always prone to understeer, removed by lifting off, no tank slappers, hard to provoke oversteer. That only seemed to happen on way too high entry speed to corners (track-only).
Evo - really rather uncharacterizable (is that a word). It never really managed to under- or over-steer, just point and press and it sorts itself out.
Spec C Impreza - as described elsewhere - razor sharp turn-in and provoked smoothly to oversteer, rather like a sorted rwd car.
Current model Impreza WRX - worst of all worlds, understeer-city until it decides it's had enough then snap oversteer. Horrid.
Interestingly almost all of these exploits are track based, so not related to road-style driving apart from the P1. In the wet, that would understeer in roundabouts at what would be considered (relatively) low speeds.
Best to learn how the S3 works on a track or airfield first!
Bert
So P1 - generally good, always prone to understeer, removed by lifting off, no tank slappers, hard to provoke oversteer. That only seemed to happen on way too high entry speed to corners (track-only).
Evo - really rather uncharacterizable (is that a word). It never really managed to under- or over-steer, just point and press and it sorts itself out.
Spec C Impreza - as described elsewhere - razor sharp turn-in and provoked smoothly to oversteer, rather like a sorted rwd car.
Current model Impreza WRX - worst of all worlds, understeer-city until it decides it's had enough then snap oversteer. Horrid.
Interestingly almost all of these exploits are track based, so not related to road-style driving apart from the P1. In the wet, that would understeer in roundabouts at what would be considered (relatively) low speeds.
Best to learn how the S3 works on a track or airfield first!
Bert
bertbert said:
Evo - really rather uncharacterizable (is that a word). It never really managed to under- or over-steer, just point and press and it sorts itself out.
So, by that do you mean neutral?
Therefore balanced and sorted.
I mean why would anyone want under or oversteer?
The car goes where you want.
Give it praise.
On road or track.
WhoseGeneration said:
bertbert said:
Evo - really rather uncharacterizable (is that a word). It never really managed to under- or over-steer, just point and press and it sorts itself out.
So, by that do you mean neutral?
Therefore balanced and sorted.
I mean why would anyone want under or oversteer?
The car goes where you want.
Give it praise.
On road or track.
Quite possibly, but it wasn't particularly possible to predict what was going to happen (slip front or back) and when it did there was always a simple answer point it and press the loud pedal more. It was an insanely capable car which is why it was hopeless as a road car.
Bert
bertbert said:
It was an insanely capable car which is why it was hopeless as a road car.
Bert
Now I am confused.
Surely that is what we would want from a road car?
That it's capabilities were such that we knew that anything "bad" would be a result of total Muppetry on our part.
Leaving us to concentrate on dealing with the other "drivers" we might meet.
I seem to remember that in 1996 the A4 quattros walked all over the opposition in the British Touring Car championship, despite heavy weight penalties for 4wd cars. Particularly memorable was at one of the starts when the Audis (near the back) simply drove on to the grass and accelerated past the rest of the field.
WhoseGeneration said:
bertbert said:
It was an insanely capable car which is why it was hopeless as a road car.
Bert
Now I am confused.
Surely that is what we would want from a road car?
That it's capabilities were such that we knew that anything "bad" would be a result of total Muppetry on our part.
Leaving us to concentrate on dealing with the other "drivers" we might meet.
Perhaps he means that it just does everything for you, taking too much involvement out of driving? Its also harder to feel fully in control of a car if you don't know how its computers are going to react to your inputs.
Just to put my 2p worth in.
The 8P S3 is pretty neutral in the corners and doesn't tend to understeer much in the dry. Actually, in the dry the back end is more inclined to come out if you boot it mid-corner. Strangely it does understeer in the wet, but obviously way past the speed a FWD car would have understeered.
Generally speaking I think quattro slightly dulls the chassis and feel, it's not as much fun to drive as the MKV GTI for example. However, it makes up for this with superior cornering speed.
As RUL said, the main difference you'll spot initially is the ability to boot it off the line with no wheel spin, even in the wet
The 8P S3 is pretty neutral in the corners and doesn't tend to understeer much in the dry. Actually, in the dry the back end is more inclined to come out if you boot it mid-corner. Strangely it does understeer in the wet, but obviously way past the speed a FWD car would have understeered.
Generally speaking I think quattro slightly dulls the chassis and feel, it's not as much fun to drive as the MKV GTI for example. However, it makes up for this with superior cornering speed.
As RUL said, the main difference you'll spot initially is the ability to boot it off the line with no wheel spin, even in the wet
Hi Steve,
Yes that is what I observed - obviously whoever said 'dull understeer' about 20 times hasnt driven one, my 911 was more prone to understeer than the Audi.
I took it out in the wet yesterday, and was amazed at the stability, yes its not the most communicative or exciting handling car, but very, very competent!
Yes that is what I observed - obviously whoever said 'dull understeer' about 20 times hasnt driven one, my 911 was more prone to understeer than the Audi.
I took it out in the wet yesterday, and was amazed at the stability, yes its not the most communicative or exciting handling car, but very, very competent!
GravelBen said:
WhoseGeneration said:
bertbert said:
It was an insanely capable car which is why it was hopeless as a road car.
Bert
Now I am confused.
Surely that is what we would want from a road car?
That it's capabilities were such that we knew that anything "bad" would be a result of total Muppetry on our part.
Leaving us to concentrate on dealing with the other "drivers" we might meet.
Perhaps he means that it just does everything for you, taking too much involvement out of driving? Its also harder to feel fully in control of a car if you don't know how its computers are going to react to your inputs.
To try to qualify my comment, it is quite hard to get enjoyment out of driving in the south-east in the burbs(!). One of the enjoyable things is playing with the balance of the car and getting it smooth and feeling right in corners with the weight transfer.
The Evo was pretty much immune to wiehgt transfer. However you did a bend, there was little feel, little feedback and it just sorted it out.
All the other cars I drive on the road (TVR, Caterham, Galaxy, Rover 25) all need to be properly balanced to feel good in bends. Get the deceleration, steering and throttle control right and they all feel good. The Evo just felt the same and was thus not very rewarding.
Hope that makes sense!
Bert
GravelBen said:
WhoseGeneration said:
bertbert said:
It was an insanely capable car which is why it was hopeless as a road car.
Bert
Now I am confused.
Surely that is what we would want from a road car?
That it's capabilities were such that we knew that anything "bad" would be a result of total Muppetry on our part.
Leaving us to concentrate on dealing with the other "drivers" we might meet.
Perhaps he means that it just does everything for you, taking too much involvement out of driving? Its also harder to feel fully in control of a car if you don't know how its computers are going to react to your inputs.
Totaly agree.
Perhaps you need to drive a more primative 4WD system such as the old UR quattro or a well set up S2 with a stiff Rear anti roll bar. You can tell exactly what is going on with car and there is no computer messing you around when you are going through bends / mid corner and it really is great fun.
diff lock said:
I suppose it depends on what type of 4wd you go for. I had the use of a TT the other night. Whilst it was a very nice car, for me the 4wd made it all so clinical. No grin factor for me. I like to enjoy my driving and feel like I am making some contribution.
"Testing" the partex stock again?
See, I told you this new occupation would have it's benefits.
Build a new Ethel, Mk?, you know you want to!
WhoseGeneration said:
diff lock said:
I suppose it depends on what type of 4wd you go for. I had the use of a TT the other night. Whilst it was a very nice car, for me the 4wd made it all so clinical. No grin factor for me. I like to enjoy my driving and feel like I am making some contribution.
"Testing" the partex stock again?
See, I told you this new occupation would have it's benefits.
Build a new Ethel, Mk?, you know you want to!
Yes good idea. But would an evo / scoob engine and running gear fit into a chevette bodyshell!!!!
diff lock said:
I suppose it depends on what type of 4wd you go for. I had the use of a TT the other night. Whilst it was a very nice car, for me the 4wd made it all so clinical. No grin factor for me. I like to enjoy my driving and feel like I am making some contribution.
See Fidgits, boring.
Boring I know, but boring.
Low powered 4wd, particularly in my experience imho, with ref the miles I've done in Audis, b.....
Another man's joy could be, and as evil as generalisations are, ......
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