RE: Driving the green way?
Discussion
A few FACTS about climate change.
1.The Earths climate IS changing.
2.The Earths climate HAS ALLWAYS changed.
3.The Earths Climate WILL ALLWAYS change.
4.The current rate of change IS NOT unprecedented.
5.The entire time frame from the first upright apes to the present day is microscopic in relation to the Earths 4.6 billion year time frame.
6.The time frame covering human use of fossil fuels is submicroscopic in relation to the Earths 4.6 billion year time frame.
7.Humans do not understand the Earths weather systems (working on it at the moment)
8. Humans do NOT control the Earths weather systems.
9. If the submicroscopic time frame covering fossil fuel use HAS been sufficient to damage the planets weather, humans MUST be devastatingly toxic for the Earth. like a dog getting rid of fleas the Earth will shake us off when it has had enough of us.
1.The Earths climate IS changing.
2.The Earths climate HAS ALLWAYS changed.
3.The Earths Climate WILL ALLWAYS change.
4.The current rate of change IS NOT unprecedented.
5.The entire time frame from the first upright apes to the present day is microscopic in relation to the Earths 4.6 billion year time frame.
6.The time frame covering human use of fossil fuels is submicroscopic in relation to the Earths 4.6 billion year time frame.
7.Humans do not understand the Earths weather systems (working on it at the moment)
8. Humans do NOT control the Earths weather systems.
9. If the submicroscopic time frame covering fossil fuel use HAS been sufficient to damage the planets weather, humans MUST be devastatingly toxic for the Earth. like a dog getting rid of fleas the Earth will shake us off when it has had enough of us.
peter pan said:
A few FACTS about climate change.
1.The Earths climate IS changing.
2.The Earths climate HAS ALLWAYS changed.
3.The Earths Climate WILL ALLWAYS change.
4.The current rate of change IS NOT unprecedented.
5.The entire time frame from the first upright apes to the present day is microscopic in relation to the Earths 4.6 billion year time frame.
6.The time frame covering human use of fossil fuels is submicroscopic in relation to the Earths 4.6 billion year time frame.
7.Humans do not understand the Earths weather systems (working on it at the moment)
8. Humans do NOT control the Earths weather systems.
9. If the submicroscopic time frame covering fossil fuel use HAS been sufficient to damage the planets weather, humans MUST be devastatingly toxic for the Earth. like a dog getting rid of fleas the Earth will shake us off when it has had enough of us.
1.The Earths climate IS changing.
2.The Earths climate HAS ALLWAYS changed.
3.The Earths Climate WILL ALLWAYS change.
4.The current rate of change IS NOT unprecedented.
5.The entire time frame from the first upright apes to the present day is microscopic in relation to the Earths 4.6 billion year time frame.
6.The time frame covering human use of fossil fuels is submicroscopic in relation to the Earths 4.6 billion year time frame.
7.Humans do not understand the Earths weather systems (working on it at the moment)
8. Humans do NOT control the Earths weather systems.
9. If the submicroscopic time frame covering fossil fuel use HAS been sufficient to damage the planets weather, humans MUST be devastatingly toxic for the Earth. like a dog getting rid of fleas the Earth will shake us off when it has had enough of us.
#9 is true though, we are earth's worst enemy - we use and abuse it and rarely respect it. But it seems most of the people on this thread are happy with that situation, whether or not it is affecting the climate, which I think is deeply sad, especially when some of the tips in the original article are straightforward and easy, yet some on here seem to be saying "there is no proof yet so I'm not going to do it" or "its not doing as much harm as a cow farting so I'm not going to do it", both of which are a little selfish in my opinion, its not like these tips are doing anyone any harm, but they might well do some good.
"Yes, some of it might well be scaremongering, but you can't escape the basic science and the fact that we need to do something about it, NOW. If you want to not believe that and dismiss any environmental action as rubbish, then it is your children's lives you are screwing once and for all because when we reach a certain point, there won't be any going back. "
UTTER BS
UTTER BS
If humans are responsible in some way for the current warming cycle explain please how adding 77 million of them to the Earths population EVERY YEAR is going to make the situation better. It is the equivalent of pouring petrol onto a fire. To those who have, or want lots of children, I say have them, it is your right as a human being, just dont go round committing the ultimate hypocrisy of believing you are any kind of friend of the Earth and wanting other people to pay the price for what you have inflicted on the world. saying we should save the world for our children is the equivalent of p*ssing through someones letterbox, and then knocking on the door so that you can see har far it went.
peter pan said:
If humans are responsible in some way for the current warming cycle explain please how adding 77 million of them to the Earths population EVERY YEAR is going to make the situation better. It is the equivalent of pouring petrol onto a fire. To those who have, or want lots of children, I say have them, it is your right as a human being, just dont go round committing the ultimate hypocrisy of believing you are any kind of friend of the Earth and wanting other people to pay the price for what you have inflicted on the world. saying we should save the world for our children is the equivalent of p*ssing through someones letterbox, and then knocking on the door so that you can see har far it went.
I don't get why people care so much.
All we are doing is destroying the delicate fabric and sustainability of our way of life, and to a greater extent our favourable habitat.
However you look at it, in 10,000 years the human civilisation will have to adapt, whether we are 100,000 strong and green as we can be, or 10,000,000,000 strong and chucking pollution up everywhere, the climate will change, the seas will rise and fall, and we will have to adapt.
Good point though. Global over population is the biggest worry. Even if we all lived as green as we could TODAY, globally, as we are now, we would *just* be apparently ok. But in another 10 years that won't be viable as the population grows further still.
When do we stop reducing our lifestyles to meet growing populations? In theory more will die as we live less advanced lifestyles with less technology... I think a big war over resources will be what curbs population growth, and man-made biological warfare (but against people, without them knowing, by place like the USA)
Dave
peter pan said:
Zebedee P.s ALL the other points are FACTS . Interesting how you managed to ignore them.
I agree that they are all facts.
However, whilst what is happening now temperature-wise is not unusual, temperature has always followed C02 levels - proved by air samples taken from ice cores. The difference today is that CO2 levels are way, way higher on an unprecedented scale and the fear AND MAYBE IT IS ONLY THAT - JUST A FEAR, that if temperatures follow, well, there could be some very serious consequences, such as the melting of the polar ice caps and raising of sea levels, turning off of the gulf stream etc. It may be just a fear, but if you look back at the original article about how people can save a little bit of emissions by for example taking all the crap out of their boot that they needlessly carry about and taking your roof rack off when you don't need it, I really can't understand why people, however much they believe "it will all be alright and I don't have to do anything about it" will knock such advice.
Anyway, lets try and slow the pace at which the world is heating up, otherwise I'll have to sell my snowboard.
zebedee said:
JUST A FEAR, that if temperatures follow, well, there could be some very serious consequences, such as the melting of the polar ice caps and raising of sea levels, turning off of the gulf stream etc.
That will happen anyway, it's happened before it'll happen again. Why are we fearful of what is inevitable?
Hey ho.
Dave
be nice to postpone it a bit though wouldn't it, if we could, or if we could try to do something that would at least have a chance of postponing it? Like cutting industrial emissions, reducing amount of packaging, recycling efficiently, not using our cars for half mile journeys like a bunch of lazy c...s
zebedee said:
be nice to postpone it a bit though wouldn't it, if we could, or if we could try to do something that would at least have a chance of postponing it? Like cutting industrial emissions, reducing amount of packaging, recycling efficiently, not using our cars for half mile journeys like a bunch of lazy c...s
But postponing it for *maybe* 750 years rather than *maybe* 250 years is still ignoring that it will happen, by spending trillions which would be better spent changing the fundamental way in which we live and use resources, and preparing for the changes that do occur.
Afterall, plenty of land will be flooded, but a HUGE continent (Antartica) will be uncovered, rich in resources, with seas rich with life all around. Vast areas of the higher latitudes will loose their permafrost and again become rich habitats and areas to live.
Do you suggest we spend billions today making punitive attempts to alter the inevitable which we *may* be accelerating, but focussing on carbon emissions which the developing world will offset quickly anyway.
Impact our ability to defend against the changes, by reducing industrial strength and effectiveness.
Quickly, we need to build railways into Northern Russia to bring crops to Northern Africa which is suffering from reduced crop yields.
We need water feeding from the wet North Cape to Southern Europe via large pipelines. Who knows, but if humanity wants to prevail it needs to be serious about it. Taxing a few cars 10% more and pocketing the change for an illegal war WON'T do bugger all for anyone.
The changes will happen, and without change we will be stuck in little corners of a changing world, and fighting will break out when populations try to do what they did naturally in the past as resources and demands changed, which was move around.
Today we have borders and economies and they won't survive the way they are.
Humans are stupid to think we can keep some kind of socio-economic stasis through an ice age or warm period. The whole planets diversity and spread of resources and land will change, we need to work with it, not just wait until it happens then have a huge war to re-affirm new territories and rich resources.
Or maybe that is what will happen in 1000 years?
So no, it wouldn't be nice to postpone it if all it does it impact our ability to fight it when it does happen, by being ill-prepared living like we did 250 years ago, just to hold off the impending issues of global over-population a little longer.
We need strong industry, technology and science to overcome the problems we face, not cowering back into the dark ages.
Yes we need to do something, but I think what we are doing right now is NOT any help whatsoever. If they want to save energy cut the big users, cut the pointless waste, cut the bullshit tax on things that make no bloody difference, and do a proper job!
Give the billions to these developing nations so they can have nuclear power, clean and efficient, rather than simply telling them they can't use coal, tough shit, no electricity for you.
Ultimately I feel thats what it comes down to. The developed nations won't budge for the developing ones, but they will join us the dirty, environmentally un-kind way if we won't help them using our experiences!
Ignorant humans at our best. I don't think I'll be ruining my childrens future, I think our government will do that just fine by being ignorant self-serving popularist cretins who can't see beyond the next election!
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 9th May 16:06
Agree with a lot you say there Mr Whippy, but you do seem to assume, as many seem to, that by making industry more environmentally friendly it will be regressing it in some way. This isn't necessarily so - new technologies, whole new industries would grow in the environmental sector, spawning further developments and advances such that we might be far better placed to adapt in future, whilst slowing the rate of change down.
I doubt that many would disagree with you that there is little point giving extra money to the government to do anything about it, we have to do something ourselves, that is why bodies like the IAM have published some information which many who will read it won't have seen before and which might help them do their little bit.
Returning to the original IAM article, there is nothing on there that we can't do and most of those things would also save us some money too, so I still can't understand why most people on this thread have had a pop at it. Most PHers probably do know all this stuff about driving efficiency anyway but the article is probably a general press release, not one targetted at PHers.
I doubt that many would disagree with you that there is little point giving extra money to the government to do anything about it, we have to do something ourselves, that is why bodies like the IAM have published some information which many who will read it won't have seen before and which might help them do their little bit.
Returning to the original IAM article, there is nothing on there that we can't do and most of those things would also save us some money too, so I still can't understand why most people on this thread have had a pop at it. Most PHers probably do know all this stuff about driving efficiency anyway but the article is probably a general press release, not one targetted at PHers.
zebedee said:
Agree with a lot you say there Mr Whippy, but you do seem to assume, as many seem to, that by making industry more environmentally friendly it will be regressing it in some way. This isn't necessarily so - new technologies, whole new industries would grow in the environmental sector, spawning further developments and advances such that we might be far better placed to adapt in future, whilst slowing the rate of change down.
I doubt that many would disagree with you that there is little point giving extra money to the government to do anything about it, we have to do something ourselves, that is why bodies like the IAM have published some information which many who will read it won't have seen before and which might help them do their little bit.
Returning to the original IAM article, there is nothing on there that we can't do and most of those things would also save us some money too, so I still can't understand why most people on this thread have had a pop at it. Most PHers probably do know all this stuff about driving efficiency anyway but the article is probably a general press release, not one targetted at PHers.
I doubt that many would disagree with you that there is little point giving extra money to the government to do anything about it, we have to do something ourselves, that is why bodies like the IAM have published some information which many who will read it won't have seen before and which might help them do their little bit.
Returning to the original IAM article, there is nothing on there that we can't do and most of those things would also save us some money too, so I still can't understand why most people on this thread have had a pop at it. Most PHers probably do know all this stuff about driving efficiency anyway but the article is probably a general press release, not one targetted at PHers.
Yep, with regards to you first two para's I agree. What I am seeing more of though is almost religious fevour in how policy is chosen and implemented. Logic appears to be lacking and we see things like 4x4's being targetted while cities still use massive amounts of electricity to light shops etc on an evening because it's low demand and needs using. THAT is stupid, we should develop technology to alter output more diversely, or alter our working habits as humans to use our costly infrastructure more efficiently, by working more flexibly at different hours.
Anyway, you get the point. There is tons we can all do, and we can all do something right now. Check tyre pressures is an age old one. Remove roof rack if it's on with nothing to carry etc. Not sure on some of the other stuff.
But I think we need to see more in the news and things about waste at Easter and Christmas. All those cards and wrapping and packaging of food etc. Just so much waste, and industry could make HUGE savings here if they did these things for the right reasons. People would buy into "green" products if they were not all big and flashy to sell, but were considerate to resources and sold that way instead.
Hey ho. I'm just in doubt that those in power are directing their energy in the right direction!
Dave
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