Dominating traffic...
Discussion
... or perhaps you could call it bluffing.
Examples:
Examples:
- Making rapid progress, approaching two lorries in lane 1. Rear lorry looks as though it might be considering an overake. Remain in lane 2 to discourage overtake, prepared to have to move to lane 3.
- Single carrigeway road, wide enough for three. Sit in contact position behind target, straddling white line, to encourage oncoming traffic to move over and allow you to overtake down the middle.
- Any situation where priority is unclear (e.g. merge in turns, stationary traffic parked on road, unmarked junctions, etc) always acting as though one is not going to give way to anyone, but always having in the back of ones mind the possiblity that one will have to, and planning accordingly.
imbecile said:
... or perhaps you could call it bluffing.
Examples:
Why stay in lane 2? If you're anticipating that the lorry will move into lane 2, then move to lane 3 to allow them space to do so. It's not impeding your progress at all, it's showing good anticipation and awareness and some courtesy, which i sorely lacking on todays roads.Examples:
- Making rapid progress, approaching two lorries in lane 1. Rear lorry looks as though it might be considering an overake. Remain in lane 2 to discourage overtake, prepared to have to move to lane 3.
Sitting in lane 2 to prevent someone from overtaking is unnecessarily bloody-minded.
If the lorry doesn't overtake, there would still have been no harm in moving to lane 3 and then back again again.
imbecile said:
*Single carrigeway road, wide enough for three. Sit in contact position behind target, straddling white line, to encourage oncoming traffic to move over and allow you to overtake down the middle.
You should always try to avoid making a line of three moving vehicles abreast, especially if you're putting yourself as the meat in the sandwich between vehicles travelling in opposite directions. Overtakes should only take place in gaps in on-coming traffic, even if you think the road is wide enough. You shouldn't be expecting people to move out of the way, either. You should always aim to drive in a way that does not make other drivers alter their course or speed.imbecile said:
*Any situation where priority is unclear (e.g. merge in turns, stationary traffic parked on road, unmarked junctions, etc) always acting as though one is not going to give way to anyone, but always having in the back of ones mind the possiblity that one will have to, and planning accordingly.
If you're ever in doubt about priority, you should give way - especially at un-marked junctions.imbecile said:
Thoughts about the validity of such driving in general, and the above examples in particular?
No, no and no.Some of your suggestions are relevant to emergency response driving and VIP escort driving, but certainly not to any civilian type driving.
well, nothing wrong with starting a discussion 
but this one is going to be rather one-sided, I think. A particular pet hate of mine is people boxing in lane 1 traffic by sitting in lane 2 and failing to anticipate that someone in lane 1 might imminently want to pull out. Holding position in lane 2 when someone in lane 1 is indicating to pull out is even worse, and sadly very common.
but this one is going to be rather one-sided, I think. A particular pet hate of mine is people boxing in lane 1 traffic by sitting in lane 2 and failing to anticipate that someone in lane 1 might imminently want to pull out. Holding position in lane 2 when someone in lane 1 is indicating to pull out is even worse, and sadly very common.R_U_LOCAL said:
imbecile said:
... or perhaps you could call it bluffing.
Examples:
Why stay in lane 2? If you're anticipating that the lorry will move into lane 2, then move to lane 3 to allow them space to do so. It's not impeding your progress at all, it's showing good anticipation and awareness and some courtesy, which i sorely lacking on todays roads.Examples:
- Making rapid progress, approaching two lorries in lane 1. Rear lorry looks as though it might be considering an overake. Remain in lane 2 to discourage overtake, prepared to have to move to lane 3.
Sitting in lane 2 to prevent someone from overtaking is unnecessarily bloody-minded.
If the lorry doesn't overtake, there would still have been no harm in moving to lane 3 and then back again again.
R_U_LOCAL said:
imbecile said:
*Single carrigeway road, wide enough for three. Sit in contact position behind target, straddling white line, to encourage oncoming traffic to move over and allow you to overtake down the middle.
You should always try to avoid making a line of three moving vehicles abreast, especially if you're putting yourself as the meat in the sandwich between vehicles travelling in opposite directions. Overtakes should only take place in gaps in on-coming traffic, even if you think the road is wide enough. You shouldn't be expecting people to move out of the way, either. You should always aim to drive in a way that does not make other drivers alter their course or speed.R_U_LOCAL said:
imbecile said:
*Any situation where priority is unclear (e.g. merge in turns, stationary traffic parked on road, unmarked junctions, etc) always acting as though one is not going to give way to anyone, but always having in the back of ones mind the possiblity that one will have to, and planning accordingly.
If you're ever in doubt about priority, you should give way - especially at un-marked junctions.R_U_LOCAL said:
imbecile said:
Thoughts about the validity of such driving in general, and the above examples in particular?
No, no and no.Some of your suggestions are relevant to emergency response driving and VIP escort driving, but certainly not to any civilian type driving.
henrycrun said:
and my beef is poor urban driving when stationary traffic in road.
Baffles me why folks drive too fast to stop safely behind and instead overtake forcing the oncoming driver to swerve or stop.
It's click...whir resposne, I thinkBaffles me why folks drive too fast to stop safely behind and instead overtake forcing the oncoming driver to swerve or stop.
bus...click...whir...overtake.
I tend to find urban traffic amusing rather than annoying, especially in London - some of the manouevers are just so dangerous it's impossible to keep a straight face!
imbecile said:
Please understand that I am talking about situations where the lorry overtaking would be putting you in danger (i.e. when there is a high speed differential). My logic here is that if you pass the two lorries overtaking one another at high speed then on a three lane road you have nowhere to go in an incident. Discouraging the overtake gives you more space.
That's not the lorry putting you in danger, it's you putting yourself in danger. Remember what I said about trying to avoid making a line of three vehicles abreast? The key words are "trying to avoid". I've always taught people to try to time their overtakes so that they're not alongside two other adjacent vehicles, and it isn't too difficult - a slight lift or squeeze on the accelerator combined with good observations and planning is usualy enough.Sitting stubbornly in lane 2 when you're anticipating a vehicle moving out is unecessarily dangerous.
imbecile said:
Of course, but I don't see anything wrong with encouraging them...
I do - if your positioning is making people alter their course or speed.imbecile said:
This is true, although someone has to take the initiative at some point!
There's a huge difference between being cautious but taking the initiative, and the type of driving you described.imbecile said:
Obviously I don't drive like this very often, as I have no need to and enjoy showing courtesy (really, I probably show too much!). I'm just interested in these techniques when they are necessary. As you mention, I have more or less picked them up from videos and observation of emergency drivers in real life - but as I'm not privy to the emergency training I can only guess as to the motives behind the manouevers detailled above - I could easily be completely wrong!
Emergency response involves making yourself as visible as possible, and looking for clues from other drivers that they've actually seen you. It would amaze you how many people can drive along, completely oblivious to a Police car with lights and sirens in their mirrors, or even driving towards them. That clue is usually a move to the nearside, an indicator, brake lights, etc, etc, and means that a driver has seen you, and is unlikely to do something to hold you up (unlikely, not impossible).
Positioning can make a vast difference to the visibility of your car, and so I've always taught to move out very early when overtaking, look for reactions from the overtaken, and the oncoming vehicles, and yes - to dominate the road. But this is a far cry from normal road driving.
If you drove your own car in such a manner, it illicits aggressive responses from drivers and puts you in far more danger of an accident. I've responded to emergencies in plain vehicles, and driven in surveillance scenarios, and believe me, it can be extremely hairy!
imbecile said:
Please understand that I am talking about situations where the lorry overtaking would be putting you in danger (i.e. when there is a high speed differential).
So why take the risk of having the following lorry pull out to overtake while you're being assertive in lane 2? As RU says, it's far safer to already be in lane three and won't impede anyone's progress (unless you're being passed by traffic already in lane 3).Or are you talking about a crawler lane on a single carriageway?
R_U_LOCAL said:
imbecile said:
Please understand that I am talking about situations where the lorry overtaking would be putting you in danger (i.e. when there is a high speed differential). My logic here is that if you pass the two lorries overtaking one another at high speed then on a three lane road you have nowhere to go in an incident. Discouraging the overtake gives you more space.
That's not the lorry putting you in danger, it's you putting yourself in danger. Remember what I said about trying to avoid making a line of three vehicles abreast? The key words are "trying to avoid". I've always taught people to try to time their overtakes so that they're not alongside two other adjacent vehicles, and it isn't too difficult - a slight lift or squeeze on the accelerator combined with good observations and planning is usualy enough.Sitting stubbornly in lane 2 when you're anticipating a vehicle moving out is unecessarily dangerous.
Of course, you're right though!
R_U_LOCAL said:
imbecile said:
Of course, but I don't see anything wrong with encouraging them...
I do - if your positioning is making people alter their course or speed.R_U_LOCAL said:
imbecile said:
This is true, although someone has to take the initiative at some point!
There's a huge difference between being cautious but taking the initiative, and the type of driving you described.R_U_LOCAL said:
imbecile said:
Obviously I don't drive like this very often, as I have no need to and enjoy showing courtesy (really, I probably show too much!). I'm just interested in these techniques when they are necessary. As you mention, I have more or less picked them up from videos and observation of emergency drivers in real life - but as I'm not privy to the emergency training I can only guess as to the motives behind the manouevers detailled above - I could easily be completely wrong!
Emergency response involves making yourself as visible as possible, and looking for clues from other drivers that they've actually seen you. It would amaze you how many people can drive along, completely oblivious to a Police car with lights and sirens in their mirrors, or even driving towards them. That clue is usually a move to the nearside, an indicator, brake lights, etc, etc, and means that a driver has seen you, and is unlikely to do something to hold you up (unlikely, not impossible).
Positioning can make a vast difference to the visibility of your car, and so I've always taught to move out very early when overtaking, look for reactions from the overtaken, and the oncoming vehicles, and yes - to dominate the road. But this is a far cry from normal road driving.
If you drove your own car in such a manner, it illicits aggressive responses from drivers and puts you in far more danger of an accident. I've responded to emergencies in plain vehicles, and driven in surveillance scenarios, and believe me, it can be extremely hairy!
By the way, what is the best way of signalling to an emergency vehicle that you have seen them and will be letting them past as soon as possible? This is something I believe that I mess up quite a lot (given the flashes that I get in my mirror, especially from ambulances).
Agent006 said:
imbecile said:
Please understand that I am talking about situations where the lorry overtaking would be putting you in danger (i.e. when there is a high speed differential).
So why take the risk of having the following lorry pull out to overtake while you're being assertive in lane 2? As RU says, it's far safer to already be in lane three and won't impede anyone's progress (unless you're being passed by traffic already in lane 3).On the other hand, overtaking two lorries passing each other at 100mph is much more dangerous.
imbecile said:
Agent006 said:
imbecile said:
Please understand that I am talking about situations where the lorry overtaking would be putting you in danger (i.e. when there is a high speed differential).
So why take the risk of having the following lorry pull out to overtake while you're being assertive in lane 2? As RU says, it's far safer to already be in lane three and won't impede anyone's progress (unless you're being passed by traffic already in lane 3).On the other hand, overtaking two lorries passing each other at 100mph is much more dangerous.
If he does pull out & you move to lane 3 you'll still be going 3 abreast, only you'll probably be carrying even more speed because you were living under the misaprehension that you could influence him.
imbecile said:
By the way, what is the best way of signalling to an emergency vehicle that you have seen them and will be letting them past as soon as possible? This is something I believe that I mess up quite a lot (given the flashes that I get in my mirror, especially from ambulances).
Firstly, don't panic - they're not expecting miracles. Look for somewhere that will make it easy for them to pass you, preferably on your offside. Give a left signal and move as far to the nearside as is safe and slow down.imbecile said:
.
On my infrequent trips on these big wide roads, approaching lorries close together in lane 1 would immediately consider moving to lane 3 if traffic allowed. Seen a fair few lorries just pull out as they reach their critical speed differential, especially on hills. My experience of this is usually on the annual bash south on the M74 and M6 over Shap etc. You need to be looking for clues as to what the lorries are doing.- Making rapid progress, approaching two lorries in lane 1. Rear lorry looks as though it might be considering an overake. Remain in lane 2 to discourage overtake, prepared to have to move to lane 3.
As for the 100mph+ nonsense. Just look at poor PC Langley again ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQWyAWSApzg ). He was in a marked car with flashing headlamps. what hope have you got?
Edited by gordonb on Wednesday 27th June 23:19
gordonb said:
imbecile said:
.
On my infrequent trips on these big wide roads, approaching lorries close together in lane 1 would immediately consider moving to lane 3 if traffic allowed. Seen a fair few lorries just pull out as they reach their critical speed differential, especially on hills. My experience of this is usually on the annual bash south on the M74 and M6 over Shap etc. You need to be looking for clues as to what the lorries are doing.- Making rapid progress, approaching two lorries in lane 1. Rear lorry looks as though it might be considering an overake. Remain in lane 2 to discourage overtake, prepared to have to move to lane 3.
As for the 100mph+ nonsense. Just look at poor PC Langley again (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQWyAWSApzg). He was in a marked car with flashing headlamps. what hope have you got?
There's an old adage with LGVs, if you can't see their mirrors they can't see you (blue lights on or not).
R_U_LOCAL said:
Plus it's quite obvious that they're approaching a roundabout - that right signal was one the officer should have taken a bit more notice of.
Indeed & he knew lane 3 was vanishing shortly.PC Langley said:
...knowing full well articulated vehicles can not go in lane 3
Err wrong, they can physically, just not legally on a 3 lane motorway. Legality doesn't stop people physically doing it & it's what they can physically do that matters.
Presenter said:
Close calls are part and parcel of a traffic cops life. But PC Langley has had more than his fair share.
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 28th June 06:37
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff