Cogging down into tight bends - motorsport Question
Discussion
Naked said:
Don't rely on your brakes! Thats what I do! Makes me remarkably quicker than some of the faster cars entering and exiting corners.
Ok I've been thinking about this for 3 days. With all apologies if I am wrong. It appears to me to be complete rubbish. Is it rubbish or am I missing something? I suspect the latter but I can't see it after 3 dayschris_tivver said:
Naked said:
Don't rely on your brakes! Thats what I do! Makes me remarkably quicker than some of the faster cars entering and exiting corners.
Ok I've been thinking about this for 3 days. With all apologies if I am wrong. It appears to me to be complete rubbish. Is it rubbish or am I missing something? I suspect the latter but I can't see it after 3 days
You're right Chris, you will indeed be quicker if you brake as hard as possible as late as possible, rather than as light as possible or even not at all. Naked's theory has been known to work for some drivers though if they're braking too much in the first place (I have heard it said before at the very bottom rung of racing). Once you're confident in the car and on track obviously the fastest way to go is to brake with maximum retardation down to exactly the correct corner entry speed at the right time. In competitive racing if you brake even 6 inches too early for a bend you'll qualify in last place, if at all. Braking properly is very trick to do though, as, in the words of Jackie Stewart, braking is the last thing you learn to do well on track.RobM77 said:
I'd like to say that the vast majority of quick racing drivers are neither risk takers or aggressive in any way at all. I take an interest in the psychology of racing and this is overwhelmingly the case. There are some exceptions to this rule (Senna and Hunt being the first two that spring to mind), but most good racing drivers are cool, calm, calculated and smooth (like fighter pilots).
I know from my own experience of racing that as soon as I get a bit excited or aggressive, my lap times start suffering - this is the case for the overwhelming majority of racers, from club level up to F1.
If you look at champions from across the whole spectrum of motor racing, there are many more like Clark, Hamilton, Moss, Schumacher, Stewart, Fangio, Hill, Prost, Hakkinen, Surtees, Loeb, Sainz, Rohl, Bell, Brundle etc than there are like Senna and Hunt.
I'd have Hamilton in the Senna/Hunt TBH. He is to F1 what Rossi is to Moto GP - he slides an F1 car FFS.I know from my own experience of racing that as soon as I get a bit excited or aggressive, my lap times start suffering - this is the case for the overwhelming majority of racers, from club level up to F1.
If you look at champions from across the whole spectrum of motor racing, there are many more like Clark, Hamilton, Moss, Schumacher, Stewart, Fangio, Hill, Prost, Hakkinen, Surtees, Loeb, Sainz, Rohl, Bell, Brundle etc than there are like Senna and Hunt.
VictorMeldrew said:
RobM77 said:
I'd like to say that the vast majority of quick racing drivers are neither risk takers or aggressive in any way at all. I take an interest in the psychology of racing and this is overwhelmingly the case. There are some exceptions to this rule (Senna and Hunt being the first two that spring to mind), but most good racing drivers are cool, calm, calculated and smooth (like fighter pilots).
I know from my own experience of racing that as soon as I get a bit excited or aggressive, my lap times start suffering - this is the case for the overwhelming majority of racers, from club level up to F1.
If you look at champions from across the whole spectrum of motor racing, there are many more like Clark, Hamilton, Moss, Schumacher, Stewart, Fangio, Hill, Prost, Hakkinen, Surtees, Loeb, Sainz, Rohl, Bell, Brundle etc than there are like Senna and Hunt.
I'd have Hamilton in the Senna/Hunt TBH. He is to F1 what Rossi is to Moto GP - he slides an F1 car FFS.I know from my own experience of racing that as soon as I get a bit excited or aggressive, my lap times start suffering - this is the case for the overwhelming majority of racers, from club level up to F1.
If you look at champions from across the whole spectrum of motor racing, there are many more like Clark, Hamilton, Moss, Schumacher, Stewart, Fangio, Hill, Prost, Hakkinen, Surtees, Loeb, Sainz, Rohl, Bell, Brundle etc than there are like Senna and Hunt.
Sorry, have to seriously disagree with you here.
You are IMHO overlooking some fundamentals.
For new comers which jagd appears to be, while you guys spout on about ‘smooth’ and ‘lines’ and all that stuff, the big thing he’s going to get used to fast, if he wants to do any good, is get the car up on it’s limits of adhesion. And fundamentally in competition, the thing he needs to do is get the engine up to its red line in every gear, use every last inch of the circuit, and use the maximum grip out of tyres via steering, traction and brake systems. Compared to most other forms of motoring, these are the most violent and aggressive things you can do in/with a car.
Secondly, ‘aggressive’ does not mean necessarily ‘over-driving’ and I used the words ‘efficient’ (would like to use the word consistent) and ‘practise’ to lift the lid on the idea of not provoking wasteful stuff and get used to using ALL of a car’s high performance ALL of the time without unnecessary or exaggerated movement.
All the names used above are seasoned campaigners who work with their engineers to make a car work on the very limits of adhesion and as you rightly point out, have got to that nirvana where you can get are car almost flying across the surface with a series of deft touches. (As I pointed out earlier, a new lap record or a qualifying lap from any one of the guys you mention, may not be the prettiest of sights – Alonso just scored second in qualifying in Germany despite going clean off the circuit at one stage. Those guys ‘attack’ most of the curbing most weekends.)
Now, there’s lots we don’t know about where poster jagd is in his preparations but my bet is that as he is just starting out and looking for some guidance or signposts as to how to handle these fast driving techniques, most of which involve complicated combinations.
What I’m suggesting is that if he is after something other than something to spout on with at the bar tonight, he needs to get his head in the right place now. He’s going to need to take his car’s performance into places it’s not been before, and this will first require not being shy of working hard to get to the limits. All the finesse and smoothness displayed by top racing champions can come later, but unless you go hard from day one, someone will always be quicker … get those techniques mastered now, and get on hard as you can possibly go. That’s where the fun is …
You are IMHO overlooking some fundamentals.
For new comers which jagd appears to be, while you guys spout on about ‘smooth’ and ‘lines’ and all that stuff, the big thing he’s going to get used to fast, if he wants to do any good, is get the car up on it’s limits of adhesion. And fundamentally in competition, the thing he needs to do is get the engine up to its red line in every gear, use every last inch of the circuit, and use the maximum grip out of tyres via steering, traction and brake systems. Compared to most other forms of motoring, these are the most violent and aggressive things you can do in/with a car.
Secondly, ‘aggressive’ does not mean necessarily ‘over-driving’ and I used the words ‘efficient’ (would like to use the word consistent) and ‘practise’ to lift the lid on the idea of not provoking wasteful stuff and get used to using ALL of a car’s high performance ALL of the time without unnecessary or exaggerated movement.
All the names used above are seasoned campaigners who work with their engineers to make a car work on the very limits of adhesion and as you rightly point out, have got to that nirvana where you can get are car almost flying across the surface with a series of deft touches. (As I pointed out earlier, a new lap record or a qualifying lap from any one of the guys you mention, may not be the prettiest of sights – Alonso just scored second in qualifying in Germany despite going clean off the circuit at one stage. Those guys ‘attack’ most of the curbing most weekends.)
Now, there’s lots we don’t know about where poster jagd is in his preparations but my bet is that as he is just starting out and looking for some guidance or signposts as to how to handle these fast driving techniques, most of which involve complicated combinations.
What I’m suggesting is that if he is after something other than something to spout on with at the bar tonight, he needs to get his head in the right place now. He’s going to need to take his car’s performance into places it’s not been before, and this will first require not being shy of working hard to get to the limits. All the finesse and smoothness displayed by top racing champions can come later, but unless you go hard from day one, someone will always be quicker … get those techniques mastered now, and get on hard as you can possibly go. That’s where the fun is …
"Motorsport is dangerous".
Printed on tickets, at entrances to circuits, on warning tape at events.
It is a risk beyond the normal for all involved, as has been proved over the years.
It is far from the most dangerous of activities sure but those involved, especially competitors have to face the facts. To win at, whatever level, means facing the risks involved and dealing with them.
Today, it appears a wheelgun malfunctioned and we saw the result for Lewis Hamilton.
The possibility of an unexpected mechanical problem at the wrong time has to be faced by anyone competing, marshalling or merely spectating.
The winners challenge themselves and their machines.
Fighter pilots, well I've only known one well. My late cousin. He liked risk.
Long time ago now but his Sea Vixen apppeared to have just fallen out of the sky one night.
Printed on tickets, at entrances to circuits, on warning tape at events.
It is a risk beyond the normal for all involved, as has been proved over the years.
It is far from the most dangerous of activities sure but those involved, especially competitors have to face the facts. To win at, whatever level, means facing the risks involved and dealing with them.
Today, it appears a wheelgun malfunctioned and we saw the result for Lewis Hamilton.
The possibility of an unexpected mechanical problem at the wrong time has to be faced by anyone competing, marshalling or merely spectating.
The winners challenge themselves and their machines.
Fighter pilots, well I've only known one well. My late cousin. He liked risk.
Long time ago now but his Sea Vixen apppeared to have just fallen out of the sky one night.
For somebody starting out sprinting, I'd suggest that the first question a novice should be asking is how do I keep the risk acceptably low. Driving at the edge of the performance envelope makes it pretty much a certainty that the driver is going to lose control from time to time. Managing the risk is crucial if you want to go as fast as possible without smacking into the scenery. Smooth driving and aggressive driving both have their place, and there are lots of tactics and techniques that can be used, but underlying all this should be an understanding of the risks involved, and a strategy for managing them.
When I approach a circuit the first thing I look for is an estimate of the speeds involved and how far I can go off the track before getting hurt. Knowing how much run-off there is on the inside and outside of a corner tells me what sorts of mistake I can get away with.
For example, the first corner at Curborough is a long left hander that tightens over a crest. On the outside is a ditch and tyre wall. Understeering off is likely to end in damage. The inside is clear though, so oversteer followed by a visit to the infield is pretty harmless. However, oversteer that is over-corrected leading to a rebound the other way will be very nasty indeed. The good news is that I can run parallel to the ditch for ages without hitting anything. If I get oversteer here then of course I'll try to catch it, if it looks like turning into a tank slapper I'll bail out and lock all four wheels rather than risk trying to catch it. The next corner is moderately tight right. As long as I get turned in, I know that even running wide on the exit I have plenty of room to run alongside the track and get it back under control. The danger again is that if I don't get turned in it will be a very short trip to the heavy plastic barrier protecting the trees. Turning in can be a problem if the exit from the previous left is too leery, so on the way out of the left hander I'm careful to keep the back end good and tight to make sure that doesn't happen. Having got it turned in I can give it absolute death through and out of the corner, and it's worth pushing here because there's a bit of a straight afterwards.
And so on round the rest of the circuit, looking for the potential consequences if I understeer, oversteer or drift off the track. This will determine my strategy for that circuit - where I can afford to push it, which sorts of mistake I can afford to make at each point and which I can't, what options are open to me for each type of mistake. As long as I have acceptable options, I can take calculated risks that I will make those mistakes. When I don't, I'll have to be more conservative.
I suppose that leads on to the rest of the recce, planning the lap, deciding what line to take, where to change gear, which bits will be most critical to lap times, how much grip there will be at each point, identifying reference markers and so on. Most important of all is looking for the marshals' posts and remembering to look for them on the run, because tunnel vision makes it all too easy to miss them in the heat of the moment. You could probably write a book on this stage, and I'm sure somebody has.
The next step is finding out how much grip there actually is, where the car tries to understeer and oversteer, how much speed you can afford to carry into a corner and where you need to brake to achieve that. This is where I employ my bull-in-a-china-shop approach, which can be quite entertaining to watch and involves driving some way below the limit of grip and provoking small slides at every opportunity. The more confident I am the closer to the limit I'll be and the less provocation will be needed. As I approach the limit the slides become smaller and closer together with less provocation until eventually no provocation is needed, the car is teetering on the peak of the slip/grip curve all the way round. Depending on the track and the conditions I may never get to this stage and may still be feeling for grip even on a timed run.
Chapter three is how do you pick the perfect line, how do you develop all the techniques you need to stay in control this close to the limit, how do you snatch tenths and hundredths of a second out of your lap time, and I think that's where you guys are already up to and what the OP is asking about.
When I approach a circuit the first thing I look for is an estimate of the speeds involved and how far I can go off the track before getting hurt. Knowing how much run-off there is on the inside and outside of a corner tells me what sorts of mistake I can get away with.
For example, the first corner at Curborough is a long left hander that tightens over a crest. On the outside is a ditch and tyre wall. Understeering off is likely to end in damage. The inside is clear though, so oversteer followed by a visit to the infield is pretty harmless. However, oversteer that is over-corrected leading to a rebound the other way will be very nasty indeed. The good news is that I can run parallel to the ditch for ages without hitting anything. If I get oversteer here then of course I'll try to catch it, if it looks like turning into a tank slapper I'll bail out and lock all four wheels rather than risk trying to catch it. The next corner is moderately tight right. As long as I get turned in, I know that even running wide on the exit I have plenty of room to run alongside the track and get it back under control. The danger again is that if I don't get turned in it will be a very short trip to the heavy plastic barrier protecting the trees. Turning in can be a problem if the exit from the previous left is too leery, so on the way out of the left hander I'm careful to keep the back end good and tight to make sure that doesn't happen. Having got it turned in I can give it absolute death through and out of the corner, and it's worth pushing here because there's a bit of a straight afterwards.
And so on round the rest of the circuit, looking for the potential consequences if I understeer, oversteer or drift off the track. This will determine my strategy for that circuit - where I can afford to push it, which sorts of mistake I can afford to make at each point and which I can't, what options are open to me for each type of mistake. As long as I have acceptable options, I can take calculated risks that I will make those mistakes. When I don't, I'll have to be more conservative.
I suppose that leads on to the rest of the recce, planning the lap, deciding what line to take, where to change gear, which bits will be most critical to lap times, how much grip there will be at each point, identifying reference markers and so on. Most important of all is looking for the marshals' posts and remembering to look for them on the run, because tunnel vision makes it all too easy to miss them in the heat of the moment. You could probably write a book on this stage, and I'm sure somebody has.
The next step is finding out how much grip there actually is, where the car tries to understeer and oversteer, how much speed you can afford to carry into a corner and where you need to brake to achieve that. This is where I employ my bull-in-a-china-shop approach, which can be quite entertaining to watch and involves driving some way below the limit of grip and provoking small slides at every opportunity. The more confident I am the closer to the limit I'll be and the less provocation will be needed. As I approach the limit the slides become smaller and closer together with less provocation until eventually no provocation is needed, the car is teetering on the peak of the slip/grip curve all the way round. Depending on the track and the conditions I may never get to this stage and may still be feeling for grip even on a timed run.
Chapter three is how do you pick the perfect line, how do you develop all the techniques you need to stay in control this close to the limit, how do you snatch tenths and hundredths of a second out of your lap time, and I think that's where you guys are already up to and what the OP is asking about.
Edited by GreenV8S on Saturday 21st July 22:42
Maybe this is a psychologically personal thing, but I don't find driving round a track on the limit in any way violent, aggressive, desperate, stressful etc etc. In contrast, driving fast on the road is defintely stressful!! Driving on the track keeps your attention, but on the whole it's just a very absorbing thing to do. The people that are saying it's violent and aggressive - how much on the limit track driving have you actually done? When there are other cars very close to you looking to try and pass you yes, it can get a bit stressful, but most of the time (i.e. on test days, qualifying, or in a race without people very close to you) it is just absorbing.
All this business about revving the car highly - all that you're doing is waiting for the change up lights to come on before you select another gear?! And cornering on the limit - there's no body roll or tyre squeal like in a road car, or fear of someone coming the other way like on a road, you're just cornering and feeling the car slip and slide front and rear, and trying to keep front and rear just slipping slightly by equal amounts - there's no stress involved - this is just a very tricky thing to do that keeps your attention. The only thing I can liken it to is those games where you try and move the hoop over a wiggly line and stop a bell ringing, or maybe trimming the sales on a fast racing boat.
For a novice, I would strongly reccomend keeping a cool head and practising the techniques for track driving. If this means your not copmetitive, then so be it - the most important thing is that you do things correctly from the word go (like any sport, you start off holding the club and swinging correctly, and the speed and ability comes from there). Getting all worked up and aggressive about getting the last tenth of a second will only have a negative effect in the long run. I can't stress that enough.
All this business about revving the car highly - all that you're doing is waiting for the change up lights to come on before you select another gear?! And cornering on the limit - there's no body roll or tyre squeal like in a road car, or fear of someone coming the other way like on a road, you're just cornering and feeling the car slip and slide front and rear, and trying to keep front and rear just slipping slightly by equal amounts - there's no stress involved - this is just a very tricky thing to do that keeps your attention. The only thing I can liken it to is those games where you try and move the hoop over a wiggly line and stop a bell ringing, or maybe trimming the sales on a fast racing boat.
For a novice, I would strongly reccomend keeping a cool head and practising the techniques for track driving. If this means your not copmetitive, then so be it - the most important thing is that you do things correctly from the word go (like any sport, you start off holding the club and swinging correctly, and the speed and ability comes from there). Getting all worked up and aggressive about getting the last tenth of a second will only have a negative effect in the long run. I can't stress that enough.
RobM77 said:
Maybe this is a psychologically personal thing, but I don't find driving round a track on the limit in any way violent, aggressive, desperate, stressful etc etc.
That's probably because you are not going anywhere near your limits. The closer to your limits the more concentration is required and the more stress it causes. Perhaps it's different for other people, but for me it takes a definite act of will to make myself drive that close to my limit - I suspect this is the aggression that has been referred to. Not aggression as in anger, but as in attacking the corners.GreenV8S said:
RobM77 said:
Maybe this is a psychologically personal thing, but I don't find driving round a track on the limit in any way violent, aggressive, desperate, stressful etc etc.
That's probably because you are not going anywhere near your limits. The closer to your limits the more concentration is required and the more stress it causes. Perhaps it's different for other people, but for me it takes a definite act of will to make myself drive that close to my limit - I suspect this is the aggression that has been referred to. Not aggression as in anger, but as in attacking the corners.I find the term 'attacking' the corners interesting, as to me this indicates a sort of careless or aggressive charge into each bend. This couldn't be more different from how I see things - you're just braking at your braking point, turning in where you normally turn in, and at that turn in, starting to feel the car coming into it's balance point and keeping it there. The term 'attack' doesn't really apply from my perspective - turning into a corner is more like getting up onto a thin wall and balancing on it - in a tricky car it's like doing this in a stiff breeze!
RobM77 said:
If you asked me to drive through a town centre at 60mph (like some traffic officers and ambulance drivers have to), or down a twisty A road at 120mph I would say that I would be approaching my personal limits and I would get stressed about it. However, being on track driving on the limit for me is just a matter of calmly trying to do what's optimal for the car and track to achieve the best times.
Why the difference? Is it because a track typically has better run-off so you feel you are in less danger?GreenV8S said:
RobM77 said:
If you asked me to drive through a town centre at 60mph (like some traffic officers and ambulance drivers have to), or down a twisty A road at 120mph I would say that I would be approaching my personal limits and I would get stressed about it. However, being on track driving on the limit for me is just a matter of calmly trying to do what's optimal for the car and track to achieve the best times.
Why the difference? Is it because a track typically has better run-off so you feel you are in less danger?"Approaching pedestrian crossing - two people waiting to cross, one with child. Van ahead just stopped, expecting person to get out. Can see a pair of legs under van - maybe pedestrian waiting to cross? take care of that. Roundabout approaching. Driver up ahead looking at changing lanes - no indication from him so keep an eye on him. Check mirror - Person behind me is too close, careful when braking for roundabout. Queue after roundabout, make sure you don't block roundabout when exiting if that queue builds. Zebra crossing after roundabout - same concerns. Cyclist approaching, beware of oncoming traffic going round her"
"accelerate. 3rd gear, 4th gear. check gauges - ok. brake at 100 metre board. down into 2nd, trail brake first half of entry, balance car, look to exit, apply power at apex, 3rd gear, 4th gear, 5th gear"
The first is a challenge of managing information overload and acting on each piece of information correctly whilst keeping your cool and planning ahead (...advanced driving!). The second is pure concentration and technique, like performing a perfect serve in tennis. Notice how the first one doesn't even mention control of the car - this is a minor point.
The point you make about danger is an interesting one. I am probably more in danger during track driving than road driving, but somehow my mind is more at rest and the whole thing is just more peaceful. Maybe it's a personal thing to do with the psychology of fear? For instance, I'm scared of big heights, but I'd climb a small tree without a problem. I'd never go up the Eiffel tower though - not a chance! Climbing the tree is obviously more dangerous, but wouldn't bnother me in the slightest, probably because everything is in my control (or at least I think it is..).
RobM77 said:
"accelerate. 3rd gear, 4th gear. check gauges - ok. brake at 100 metre board. down into 2nd, trail brake first half of entry, balance car, look to exit, apply power at apex, 3rd gear, 4th gear, 5th gear"
I suspect the level of detail above (i.e. almost none) gives a misleading impression of the workload you will have if you are at the limit."Brake at 100m board" should read "check speed on approach, locate braking reference marks on track, assess track surface and estimate level of grip, start approximating position of turn-in and apex reference points, estimate how much speed can be carried into the apex, decide where it will be necessary to start braking relative to braking reference points to achieve this, decide how optimistic to be based on external hazards (scenery), level of confidence of estimates, and the competitive situation. Bit of a twitch on turn in, mental note to turn in less positively next time, how soon can I start winding on the throttle, (MY GOD I'M GOING TO DIE) start opening the throttle anyway. There's an apex here somewhere, how much kerb do I take, not much room on the inside so I'll keep three wheels on the track which means pointing the car straight at the barrier and trusting that it will drift as expected, absolutely no more grip to be found and we're running out of track on the way out (TAKE YOUR FOOT OFF THE THROTTLE FFS) keep the foot in and trust that your estimates of the available grip were spot on, catch a wriggle as the outside rear kicks up some dirt on the way out. Oh and there was some braking and a few gear changes along the way, but the autopilot takes care of that sort of thing.
If your driving is a smooth calm 'brake, change gear, turn in, apex, accelerate, change gear' you're either a long way back from your limit or you're assuming far greater familiarity with the car and track than you'd have at a sprint. Perhaps it would help to imagine coming out of the pit lane on cold tyres and trying to keep up with your alter ego who has been getting into the groove for the last ten minutes.
GreenV8S said:
RobM77 said:
"accelerate. 3rd gear, 4th gear. check gauges - ok. brake at 100 metre board. down into 2nd, trail brake first half of entry, balance car, look to exit, apply power at apex, 3rd gear, 4th gear, 5th gear"
I suspect the level of detail above (i.e. almost none) gives a misleading impression of the workload you will have if you are at the limit."Brake at 100m board" should read "check speed on approach, locate braking reference marks on track, assess track surface and estimate level of grip, start approximating position of turn-in and apex reference points, estimate how much speed can be carried into the apex, decide where it will be necessary to start braking relative to braking reference points to achieve this, decide how optimistic to be based on external hazards (scenery), level of confidence of estimates, and the competitive situation. Bit of a twitch on turn in, mental note to turn in less positively next time, how soon can I start winding on the throttle, (MY GOD I'M GOING TO DIE) start opening the throttle anyway. There's an apex here somewhere, how much kerb do I take, not much room on the inside so I'll keep three wheels on the track which means pointing the car straight at the barrier and trusting that it will drift as expected, absolutely no more grip to be found and we're running out of track on the way out (TAKE YOUR FOOT OFF THE THROTTLE FFS) keep the foot in and trust that your estimates of the available grip were spot on, catch a wriggle as the outside rear kicks up some dirt on the way out. Oh and there was some braking and a few gear changes along the way, but the autopilot takes care of that sort of thing.
If your driving is a smooth calm 'brake, change gear, turn in, apex, accelerate, change gear' you're either a long way back from your limit or you're assuming far greater familiarity with the car and track than you'd have at a sprint. Perhaps it would help to imagine coming out of the pit lane on cold tyres and trying to keep up with your alter ego who has been getting into the groove for the last ten minutes.
Secondly, I found reading your track commentary quite calm, whereas re-reading my road commentary got me in a hot sweat! I think the key difference here is whether things are under your control or not. On track, all of the things you mention are just standard things that happen when you're controlling a car. The other key point is that controlling the car is largely automatic - every stab of opposite lock or movement on the throttle is an instinctive movement, like moving the handlebars of a bicycle to stay upright - you're really just guiding the thing. The road commentary detailed a whole range of external things that were leaping up that you've got to actively keep on top of, which not only makes staying safe hard, but also makes demands of multi-tasking ability (which, being a bloke, I lack!).
With regard to my own personal limit, I'm not sure I understand where exactly that is, but I certainly haven't been slow in racing, and have set lots of fastest laps, won plenty of races etc. I think I still hold three or four lap records for the class I last raced in. I think what makes a driver fast is how good they are at doing what they're supposed to be doing - some people are steadier on bicycles than others (i.e. they have higher skill levels), but we all have the automatic reaction to move the handlebars to stay upright.
[quote]perfect bend for an example is the entry to the S's at Harewood
[/quote]
This is a good example of where you may not actually need to do much 'cogging down'. The reason is that the right/left are pretty much constant speed, the long righthand hairpin that follows is a bit slower followed by a short straight. So the requirement is to be in the right gear at the end of the hairpin, this doesn't necessarily need to be selected under braking for the complex.
A long gear is appropriate for the constant speed stuff, otherwise it's easy to slow down too much. What I do, approaching the complex in 4th, is take 3rd on the way in then 2nd before the final hairpin.
A better example is the approach to 'Orchard' where the braking area has a bend in it and it's necessary to downshift from 3 into 1. In this case you either do your downshifting as late as possible or you tweak the throttle while the clutch is pressed.
Your gearing may vary etc etc.
Paul
[/quote]
This is a good example of where you may not actually need to do much 'cogging down'. The reason is that the right/left are pretty much constant speed, the long righthand hairpin that follows is a bit slower followed by a short straight. So the requirement is to be in the right gear at the end of the hairpin, this doesn't necessarily need to be selected under braking for the complex.
A long gear is appropriate for the constant speed stuff, otherwise it's easy to slow down too much. What I do, approaching the complex in 4th, is take 3rd on the way in then 2nd before the final hairpin.
A better example is the approach to 'Orchard' where the braking area has a bend in it and it's necessary to downshift from 3 into 1. In this case you either do your downshifting as late as possible or you tweak the throttle while the clutch is pressed.
Your gearing may vary etc etc.
Paul
Coming back to the original question, if you're new to track driving or even new to one specific track, the one thing you'd surely want to avoid is threshold braking or braking very late, as these things are the most dangerous, and will give the least benefit in your lap time, as has been demonstrated and calculated by men cleverer than I am.
Getting the line right and the exit speed up is much more important for your lap time.
About the downshifting, if you haven't practiced heel-toeing so far, you should take it easy on corner entry and get the braking done before you shift, or leave even more time for the braking and try to heel-toe, ideally sequentially instead of block changing. I'm a recent convert to sequential downshifting - at least from high speeds - after sliding into the gravel trap at Pannoniaring after asking too much of the rear wheels on entering Turn 1.
-Marin
Getting the line right and the exit speed up is much more important for your lap time.
About the downshifting, if you haven't practiced heel-toeing so far, you should take it easy on corner entry and get the braking done before you shift, or leave even more time for the braking and try to heel-toe, ideally sequentially instead of block changing. I'm a recent convert to sequential downshifting - at least from high speeds - after sliding into the gravel trap at Pannoniaring after asking too much of the rear wheels on entering Turn 1.
-Marin
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