Overtaking when no centre line
Discussion
There is a few roads - but one specifically, near me that I use regularly.
its a NSL - quite wide (easily wide enough for 2 cars to pass at the speed limit from oppposite directions).
The problem is, lots of people crawl along it at 40mph... I tend to overtake them, most are fine with their road positioning and I have no problems - however, as there are no markings, sometimes people choose to drive down 'practically' the middle of the road, in those cases i pull to the right, toot the horn with the right indicator going, hoping they get the hint, sometimes they do, sometimes they dont.
I have had, once or twice, as i start to pass a car, it move to the middle, I dont know whether on purpose (just because some people are knobs) or because they didnt expect it...
But it gets me thinking - what are the rules for overtaking on these roads - its a 'white' back road on maps, NSL, and as i say, safe to pass as long as the car in front drives properly..
its a NSL - quite wide (easily wide enough for 2 cars to pass at the speed limit from oppposite directions).
The problem is, lots of people crawl along it at 40mph... I tend to overtake them, most are fine with their road positioning and I have no problems - however, as there are no markings, sometimes people choose to drive down 'practically' the middle of the road, in those cases i pull to the right, toot the horn with the right indicator going, hoping they get the hint, sometimes they do, sometimes they dont.
I have had, once or twice, as i start to pass a car, it move to the middle, I dont know whether on purpose (just because some people are knobs) or because they didnt expect it...
But it gets me thinking - what are the rules for overtaking on these roads - its a 'white' back road on maps, NSL, and as i say, safe to pass as long as the car in front drives properly..
Rules would be very simple; ok to overtake if safe to do so (and you don't break the speed limit). The only time there is no passing is if there is a sign like this;
or if there are solid white lines in the middle of the road, do not cross them like this
or 
where they mean;
107: Double white lines where the line nearest to you is broken. This means you may cross the lines to overtake if it is safe, provided you can complete the manoeuvre before reaching a solid white line on your side. White arrows on the road indicate when you need to get back onto your side of the road.
108: Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10mph or less.
Laws RTA sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26
or if there are solid white lines in the middle of the road, do not cross them like this
or where they mean;
107: Double white lines where the line nearest to you is broken. This means you may cross the lines to overtake if it is safe, provided you can complete the manoeuvre before reaching a solid white line on your side. White arrows on the road indicate when you need to get back onto your side of the road.
108: Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10mph or less.
Laws RTA sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26
I'd hang out in the overtaking position until you are sure he's seen you - a flash or toot might help. You might know he's seen you as he tucks in, indicates left, or you make eye contact in his mirrors.
Going past when he might not have seen you and there's nowhere to escape to is risky imho.
Going past when he might not have seen you and there's nowhere to escape to is risky imho.
Platinum said:
I know the horn is there to warn of your presence; but it seems to be a confrontational 'signal' now.
Yes, I fear there is more danger of it being seen like that now, but I think we can offset that to some extent by giving the warning note early, and from some distance back, and in the form of a short toot rather than a long blast.I suppose I'm really thinking here of horn usage in built-up areas, for the benefit of pedestrians and cyclists, as on the open road a more positive and louder message would need to be sent.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS said:
Yes, I fear there is more danger of it being seen like that now, but I think we can offset that to some extent by giving the warning note early, and from some distance back, and in the form of a short toot rather than a long blast.
I'd agree with early at distance -- but do it for as long as it takes for them to hear it. No point needing it and then doing such a short blast that it's not heard.
I was in this exact situation a few days ago. The road is a NSL country road, most of which is very windy (as in 'the long and winding road - not as in 'wind farm') but with the corners interrupted by 2 decent straights, one after the other with a 45 degree turn in between - visibility around the turn is poor due to the hedge rows. The straights are just wide enough for two cars to pass comfortably in opposite directions at 60 mph. However when there is nothing on-coming traffic does tend to travel toward the centre of the road and move left slightly if traffic approaches.
I was following another car which was travelling around 40mph, no faster, it was positioned in the centre of the road, I intended to move right from the following position but not to accelerate, I hoped my position on the opposite side of the road would make clear my intentions and the lead car would move left, allowing me to safely accelerate past.
Normal overtaking procedure then, nothing behind, indicating right, and move out... wait for him to move left.................. still waiting...... all the time the 45 degree right turn is getting closer....he's not going to move left........ abort the move and wait to see what develops on the second straight. As I move back to the left the car in-front moves left - which suggests to me he is aware of my presence and probably my intention to pass. Second straight - same procedure again and he moves left - a bit - just enough I decide but to be honest as I came past it felt like a bit of a squeeze. Didn't get that well executed overtake feeling afterwards. To be honest I think the overtakee made it difficult for me by refusing to move left as much as he could of. I'm not suggesting he should of been uncomfortably close to the verge, but I honestly think that there was more room than that.
Should I have given a headlamp flash.... hmmm not really a big advocate in most situations, very conscious of not being perceived as aggressive (maybe too conscious) - but presented with this same situation again I might take the advice of earlier posters and give a flash from as far back as possible - I do accept that in this situation there is a strong argument to say it was appropriate.
Using the horn - I think you could open a whole new thread on horn use, I personally don't like to use it unless it's a last resort. In too many situations it gets a very negative reaction. (I think horns should be made to sound really gay so they couldn't be used in an aggressive manner but they could still be available for their proper use as a warning - but that's a different story)
I was following another car which was travelling around 40mph, no faster, it was positioned in the centre of the road, I intended to move right from the following position but not to accelerate, I hoped my position on the opposite side of the road would make clear my intentions and the lead car would move left, allowing me to safely accelerate past.
Normal overtaking procedure then, nothing behind, indicating right, and move out... wait for him to move left.................. still waiting...... all the time the 45 degree right turn is getting closer....he's not going to move left........ abort the move and wait to see what develops on the second straight. As I move back to the left the car in-front moves left - which suggests to me he is aware of my presence and probably my intention to pass. Second straight - same procedure again and he moves left - a bit - just enough I decide but to be honest as I came past it felt like a bit of a squeeze. Didn't get that well executed overtake feeling afterwards. To be honest I think the overtakee made it difficult for me by refusing to move left as much as he could of. I'm not suggesting he should of been uncomfortably close to the verge, but I honestly think that there was more room than that.
Should I have given a headlamp flash.... hmmm not really a big advocate in most situations, very conscious of not being perceived as aggressive (maybe too conscious) - but presented with this same situation again I might take the advice of earlier posters and give a flash from as far back as possible - I do accept that in this situation there is a strong argument to say it was appropriate.
Using the horn - I think you could open a whole new thread on horn use, I personally don't like to use it unless it's a last resort. In too many situations it gets a very negative reaction. (I think horns should be made to sound really gay so they couldn't be used in an aggressive manner but they could still be available for their proper use as a warning - but that's a different story)
I think it depends on the question...
Q. is it illegal according to any no overtaking regs? A. No
Q. would a normal overtaking motorist have a go? A. Yes
Q. what does the advanced driver do? A. I think that a core tenet of advanced driving is risk aversion over making progress. This would lead one to conclude that few overtakes are safe on a road that requires the overtaken vehicle to maintain a specific path within their lane.
So the AD answer would be no IMO.
Bert
Q. is it illegal according to any no overtaking regs? A. No
Q. would a normal overtaking motorist have a go? A. Yes
Q. what does the advanced driver do? A. I think that a core tenet of advanced driving is risk aversion over making progress. This would lead one to conclude that few overtakes are safe on a road that requires the overtaken vehicle to maintain a specific path within their lane.
So the AD answer would be no IMO.
Bert
SLCZ3 said:
You have to assume he has not seen you, so indicate to overtake put headlights on
( dipped ) flash headlights to full beam and back to dipped, use horn briefly and wait for him to move over, as he does so put pedal to the metal and drive the guy off the road.
er wrong forum?( dipped ) flash headlights to full beam and back to dipped, use horn briefly and wait for him to move over, as he does so put pedal to the metal and drive the guy off the road.
bert
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