What car has the best pedal set up for heel and toe?
Discussion
A few cars get a mention of perfect pedal layout, including TVRs. I don't have experience of the others listed but I drive a TVR Tuscan and the pedal layout is fantastic, with nicely spaced floor hinged pedals. A not too heavy clutch, with excellent brakes and a progressive throttle makes for heel and toe ease. You can heel and toe on a sedate run to the shops, just to get the revs right on a downchange coming up to a roundabout. TVRs were designed by knowledgeable engineers who happen to be enthusiastic drivers, with a keen racing driver (P.Wheeler) giving the OK to it all, rather than the health and safety brigade or accountants putting a stop to it, as with most mass produced cars. Try a test drive in a late model TVR and you will understand what I mean.
Thing is, I've always been able to H@T, in all our cars, over decades.
The current shopping car, the first with FBW throttle control, proving to be a bit reluctant.
Micra 160SR, although it responds if one is "on it".
Not if one requires a lazy, low speed H@T.
I want it to do what I want, when I want it.
Seems the ECU engineers don't agree.
Why?.
The current shopping car, the first with FBW throttle control, proving to be a bit reluctant.
Micra 160SR, although it responds if one is "on it".
Not if one requires a lazy, low speed H@T.
I want it to do what I want, when I want it.
Seems the ECU engineers don't agree.
Why?.
Scoobman said:
Obviously you can heel and toe in many cars.
So the list so far of cars so far that seem to have a partically good set up -fresh from the factory in your collect experience are -
BMWs many but not all E30 and E36
Porkers - Boxter gets a mention
Honda NSX
Nissan Primera 1998
Classic Mini
TVRs
I would definitely add all my Subarus to the list, especially the Forester STi. Although it is a turbo so has the lag you'd expect when blipping, a quick tap makes downshifts so smooth and fast! My IAM observers (and examiner) did question the need for it (as they did with braking or changing gears through corners) but accepted that done safely and in a controlled manner it was fine.So the list so far of cars so far that seem to have a partically good set up -fresh from the factory in your collect experience are -
BMWs many but not all E30 and E36
Porkers - Boxter gets a mention
Honda NSX
Nissan Primera 1998
Classic Mini
TVRs
roryalsop said:
I would definitely add all my Subarus to the list, especially the Forester STi.
I've used H&T in the 3 Subarus I've owned (and agree about how well it smooths things out), though my current '97 Legacy took a while to get used to as the brake pedal is very light and over-assisted in the first part of its travel but moves much further when being worked hard, making the H&T action quite different depending how hard you're braking.Just bought an MX5 which has a much firmer, better brake pedal, would be perfect for H&T if either the brake pedal was a bit lower or the accelerator a bit higher. Not bad as it is though.
I found that my '95 MR2 and my current '02 Celica T-Sport are fantastic for heel and toe. Golf Vr6 was rubbish, if not impossible. Z3 was not too bad but you had to be on the brakes fairly hard for the brake to be in far enough for the other side of the foot to reach the throttle. After I sold the Mr2 for the Golf (BIG mistake!!!!) I really missed doing it!
Rossy15 said:
I found that my '95 MR2 and my current '02 Celica T-Sport are fantastic for heel and toe. Golf Vr6 was rubbish, if not impossible. Z3 was not too bad but you had to be on the brakes fairly hard for the brake to be in far enough for the other side of the foot to reach the throttle. After I sold the Mr2 for the Golf (BIG mistake!!!!) I really missed doing it!
I've also found the mark2 MR2 to be the best car to do it in, as the pedals are close enough both width wise and also pedal height when on the brakes. That said my old Ka was capable as is my mums 2003 Astra. The latest Fords (Focus/Mondeo/C-Max) and Astra seem to have such sharp brakes that it's hard to press the accelerator down enough whilst retaining enough control to modulate the brakes. Shame really coz i enjoy plipping the throttle to match revs on a downchange just because i can! 
Rob.
I agree with the comments about BMWs. I've owned 3 E36s and found them all pretty easy - the pedals are relatively close and there's less need to pivot the foot. My 911 is trickier as the brake pedal is higher and the throttle further away - however, it's also pretty easy. By far the easiest car I've owned was my classic Scooby which was a doddle, great pedal position (and when I fitted a heel-toe throttle pedal I hardly had to move my foot at all). The only thing on any of my cars that's proved difficult is when you get an over-servoed brake combined with a stiff throttle action - it makes it much more diffult to heel-toe at low speed. My M3 is a little like this.
I totally agree with the silly comments earlier about heel-toe somehow being dangerous on the road. Ridiculous. IMO it is the ony way to drive - it keeps the car much more stable under braking and also is gentler on the engine. I do it all the time. You've just got to learn to do it well. A really satisfying technique.
I totally agree with the silly comments earlier about heel-toe somehow being dangerous on the road. Ridiculous. IMO it is the ony way to drive - it keeps the car much more stable under braking and also is gentler on the engine. I do it all the time. You've just got to learn to do it well. A really satisfying technique.
Animal said:
misunderstood said:
I don't even heel and toe in my racing car.
Do you 
To be anywhere near quick on a track you need to be threshold braking. If you are on the threshold of grip when braking and you let the clutch up after a gear change and the revs aren't matched, that extra force through the driven wheels will breech the limit and lock the driven wheels. You also can't use IAM techniques and rev match off the brake in a racing car as you might on the road, as to neutralise the car on turn in and draw traction circles (rather than crosses!!), you need to turn in as you come off the brake. Driving a racing car without heel and toe is only going to produce one thing - slow lap times. My best guess around a typical British circuit would be about half a second in the dry, and around 2 seconds in the wet. Both would see you drop about ten places on the grid in a reasonably competitive one-make series.
As for H&T on the road: I've never heard a convincing argument against it. The whole of IAM, RoSPA and Police braking and gearchange technique seems to revolve around trying to avoid heel and toe, which over-complicates things. If you just relax and use heel and toe then it makes things much simpler, and much safer, as your revs are always matched and you're always in the right gear for any given situation. There's only two reasons for not heel and toeing on the road: you can't be bothered or you can't do it. End of story.
Best pedal setup I've drive for it? BMWs without a doubt. The problem is the over-sensitive brakes which don't provide a good fulcrum that is insensitive to small changes in pressure (what you need for H&T to work). That aside, BMWs are superb for heel and toe.
Another vote for the e36 BMW.
I heel and toe all the time, as well as revmatch when not braking to reduce wear on the clutch and reduce sudden weight transfer. As long as it's done right it can be done swift or slow depending on driving conditions, so I don't see the argument that it shouldn't be done on the public road. And it's deffinitely not illegal!
I heel and toe all the time, as well as revmatch when not braking to reduce wear on the clutch and reduce sudden weight transfer. As long as it's done right it can be done swift or slow depending on driving conditions, so I don't see the argument that it shouldn't be done on the public road. And it's deffinitely not illegal!
RobM77 said:
Animal said:
misunderstood said:
I don't even heel and toe in my racing car.
Do you To be anywhere near quick on a track you need to be threshold braking. If you are on the threshold of grip when braking and you let the clutch up after a gear change and the revs aren't matched, that extra force through the driven wheels will breech the limit and lock the driven wheels. You also can't use IAM techniques and rev match off the brake in a racing car as you might on the road, as to neutralise the car on turn in and draw traction circles (rather than crosses!!), you need to turn in as you come off the brake. Driving a racing car without heel and toe is only going to produce one thing - slow lap times. My best guess around a typical British circuit would be about half a second in the dry, and around 2 seconds in the wet. Both would see you drop about ten places on the grid in a reasonably competitive one-make series.
As for H&T on the road: I've never heard a convincing argument against it. The whole of IAM, RoSPA and Police braking and gearchange technique seems to revolve around trying to avoid heel and toe, which over-complicates things. If you just relax and use heel and toe then it makes things much simpler, and much safer, as your revs are always matched and you're always in the right gear for any given situation. There's only two reasons for not heel and toeing on the road: you can't be bothered or you can't do it. End of story.
Best pedal setup I've drive for it? BMWs without a doubt. The problem is the over-sensitive brakes which don't provide a good fulcrum that is insensitive to small changes in pressure (what you need for H&T to work). That aside, BMWs are superb for heel and toe.
Rob_F said:
Rossy15 said:
I found that my '95 MR2 and my current '02 Celica T-Sport are fantastic for heel and toe.
I've also found the mark2 MR2 to be the best car to do it in, as the pedals are close enough both width wise and also pedal height when on the brakes. The combination of a silky throttle and properly weighted servo action.
So many modern Euroboxes are over-servoed which makes it far harder to get right.
misunderstood said:
WhoseGeneration said:
misunderstood said:
One shouldn't be heel and toeing on the public roads anyway!
Who says?.oh..
back O/T - 205 GTIs have a great set up if you have a size 9 or smaller
as to 911's still fiddling with my pedals after 18 months but still can't get it quite right
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