What car has the best pedal set up for heel and toe?

What car has the best pedal set up for heel and toe?

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Discussion

iguana

7,044 posts

261 months

Friday 15th February 2008
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Best as bog standard- e36 m3, e30 ok not as good in comparison, worst- very suprisingly- new elise/exige

Used a pedal extentions on my old golf = great untill brakes v v hot at at end of track day, then brake pedal just too low.




hman

7,487 posts

195 months

Monday 18th February 2008
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Pigeon said:
Mk 1 Polo, yes really.
seconded - i learnt to HT at 18 in my mums mk1 polo!

GJL

245 posts

252 months

Tuesday 19th February 2008
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A few cars get a mention of perfect pedal layout, including TVRs. I don't have experience of the others listed but I drive a TVR Tuscan and the pedal layout is fantastic, with nicely spaced floor hinged pedals. A not too heavy clutch, with excellent brakes and a progressive throttle makes for heel and toe ease. You can heel and toe on a sedate run to the shops, just to get the revs right on a downchange coming up to a roundabout. TVRs were designed by knowledgeable engineers who happen to be enthusiastic drivers, with a keen racing driver (P.Wheeler) giving the OK to it all, rather than the health and safety brigade or accountants putting a stop to it, as with most mass produced cars. Try a test drive in a late model TVR and you will understand what I mean.

WhoseGeneration

4,090 posts

208 months

Thursday 21st February 2008
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Thing is, I've always been able to H@T, in all our cars, over decades.
The current shopping car, the first with FBW throttle control, proving to be a bit reluctant.
Micra 160SR, although it responds if one is "on it".
Not if one requires a lazy, low speed H@T.
I want it to do what I want, when I want it.
Seems the ECU engineers don't agree.
Why?.

roryalsop

32 posts

255 months

Wednesday 27th February 2008
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Scoobman said:
Obviously you can heel and toe in many cars.

So the list so far of cars so far that seem to have a partically good set up -fresh from the factory in your collect experience are -

BMWs many but not all E30 and E36
Porkers - Boxter gets a mention
Honda NSX
Nissan Primera 1998
Classic Mini
TVRs
I would definitely add all my Subarus to the list, especially the Forester STi. Although it is a turbo so has the lag you'd expect when blipping, a quick tap makes downshifts so smooth and fast! My IAM observers (and examiner) did question the need for it (as they did with braking or changing gears through corners) but accepted that done safely and in a controlled manner it was fine.

GravelBen

15,734 posts

231 months

Thursday 28th February 2008
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roryalsop said:
I would definitely add all my Subarus to the list, especially the Forester STi.
I've used H&T in the 3 Subarus I've owned (and agree about how well it smooths things out), though my current '97 Legacy took a while to get used to as the brake pedal is very light and over-assisted in the first part of its travel but moves much further when being worked hard, making the H&T action quite different depending how hard you're braking.

Just bought an MX5 which has a much firmer, better brake pedal, would be perfect for H&T if either the brake pedal was a bit lower or the accelerator a bit higher. Not bad as it is though.

Rossy15

105 posts

224 months

Thursday 28th February 2008
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I found that my '95 MR2 and my current '02 Celica T-Sport are fantastic for heel and toe. Golf Vr6 was rubbish, if not impossible. Z3 was not too bad but you had to be on the brakes fairly hard for the brake to be in far enough for the other side of the foot to reach the throttle. After I sold the Mr2 for the Golf (BIG mistake!!!!) I really missed doing it!



Rob_F

4,125 posts

265 months

Friday 28th March 2008
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Rossy15 said:
I found that my '95 MR2 and my current '02 Celica T-Sport are fantastic for heel and toe. Golf Vr6 was rubbish, if not impossible. Z3 was not too bad but you had to be on the brakes fairly hard for the brake to be in far enough for the other side of the foot to reach the throttle. After I sold the Mr2 for the Golf (BIG mistake!!!!) I really missed doing it!
I've also found the mark2 MR2 to be the best car to do it in, as the pedals are close enough both width wise and also pedal height when on the brakes. That said my old Ka was capable as is my mums 2003 Astra. The latest Fords (Focus/Mondeo/C-Max) and Astra seem to have such sharp brakes that it's hard to press the accelerator down enough whilst retaining enough control to modulate the brakes. Shame really coz i enjoy plipping the throttle to match revs on a downchange just because i can! smile

Rob.

rob1234

861 posts

198 months

Thursday 3rd April 2008
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The S2000 pedal set-up is perfect for it. My hire-car this week isn't - Ford Focus diesel...

GravelBen

15,734 posts

231 months

Thursday 3rd April 2008
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Its possible in the work Hilux but not easy. Especially with boots on. silly

WhoseGeneration

4,090 posts

208 months

Friday 4th April 2008
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GravelBen said:
Its possible in the work Hilux but not easy. Especially with boots on. silly
True dedication to the cause.
I salute you.

madrob6

3,594 posts

221 months

Friday 4th April 2008
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My 98 Passat is pretty awful for this, might be why I have never managed it and given up trying. Throttle pedal is so much lower than the brake and the brake incredibly sensitive.

kusee pee

1,021 posts

204 months

Sunday 6th April 2008
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I agree with the comments about BMWs. I've owned 3 E36s and found them all pretty easy - the pedals are relatively close and there's less need to pivot the foot. My 911 is trickier as the brake pedal is higher and the throttle further away - however, it's also pretty easy. By far the easiest car I've owned was my classic Scooby which was a doddle, great pedal position (and when I fitted a heel-toe throttle pedal I hardly had to move my foot at all). The only thing on any of my cars that's proved difficult is when you get an over-servoed brake combined with a stiff throttle action - it makes it much more diffult to heel-toe at low speed. My M3 is a little like this.

I totally agree with the silly comments earlier about heel-toe somehow being dangerous on the road. Ridiculous. IMO it is the ony way to drive - it keeps the car much more stable under braking and also is gentler on the engine. I do it all the time. You've just got to learn to do it well. A really satisfying technique.

Animal

5,262 posts

269 months

Sunday 6th April 2008
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misunderstood said:
I don't even heel and toe in my racing car.
Do you win much?!

My old E36 was perfect for H&T, my Civic Type-R was even better (great throttle response!) and the Impreza's also very good. Just wish there was a foot rest though...

RobM77

35,349 posts

235 months

Monday 7th April 2008
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Animal said:
misunderstood said:
I don't even heel and toe in my racing car.
Do you win crash much?!
edited for accuracy wink

To be anywhere near quick on a track you need to be threshold braking. If you are on the threshold of grip when braking and you let the clutch up after a gear change and the revs aren't matched, that extra force through the driven wheels will breech the limit and lock the driven wheels. You also can't use IAM techniques and rev match off the brake in a racing car as you might on the road, as to neutralise the car on turn in and draw traction circles (rather than crosses!!), you need to turn in as you come off the brake. Driving a racing car without heel and toe is only going to produce one thing - slow lap times. My best guess around a typical British circuit would be about half a second in the dry, and around 2 seconds in the wet. Both would see you drop about ten places on the grid in a reasonably competitive one-make series.

As for H&T on the road: I've never heard a convincing argument against it. The whole of IAM, RoSPA and Police braking and gearchange technique seems to revolve around trying to avoid heel and toe, which over-complicates things. If you just relax and use heel and toe then it makes things much simpler, and much safer, as your revs are always matched and you're always in the right gear for any given situation. There's only two reasons for not heel and toeing on the road: you can't be bothered or you can't do it. End of story.

Best pedal setup I've drive for it? BMWs without a doubt. The problem is the over-sensitive brakes which don't provide a good fulcrum that is insensitive to small changes in pressure (what you need for H&T to work). That aside, BMWs are superb for heel and toe.

Ravell

1,181 posts

213 months

Monday 7th April 2008
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Another vote for the e36 BMW.

I heel and toe all the time, as well as revmatch when not braking to reduce wear on the clutch and reduce sudden weight transfer. As long as it's done right it can be done swift or slow depending on driving conditions, so I don't see the argument that it shouldn't be done on the public road. And it's deffinitely not illegal!

kusee pee

1,021 posts

204 months

Monday 7th April 2008
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RobM77 said:
Animal said:
misunderstood said:
I don't even heel and toe in my racing car.
Do you win crash much?!
edited for accuracy wink

To be anywhere near quick on a track you need to be threshold braking. If you are on the threshold of grip when braking and you let the clutch up after a gear change and the revs aren't matched, that extra force through the driven wheels will breech the limit and lock the driven wheels. You also can't use IAM techniques and rev match off the brake in a racing car as you might on the road, as to neutralise the car on turn in and draw traction circles (rather than crosses!!), you need to turn in as you come off the brake. Driving a racing car without heel and toe is only going to produce one thing - slow lap times. My best guess around a typical British circuit would be about half a second in the dry, and around 2 seconds in the wet. Both would see you drop about ten places on the grid in a reasonably competitive one-make series.

As for H&T on the road: I've never heard a convincing argument against it. The whole of IAM, RoSPA and Police braking and gearchange technique seems to revolve around trying to avoid heel and toe, which over-complicates things. If you just relax and use heel and toe then it makes things much simpler, and much safer, as your revs are always matched and you're always in the right gear for any given situation. There's only two reasons for not heel and toeing on the road: you can't be bothered or you can't do it. End of story.

Best pedal setup I've drive for it? BMWs without a doubt. The problem is the over-sensitive brakes which don't provide a good fulcrum that is insensitive to small changes in pressure (what you need for H&T to work). That aside, BMWs are superb for heel and toe.
Really well put Rob for both track and road. Very clear and I agree wholeheartedly.

Combover

3,009 posts

228 months

Tuesday 8th April 2008
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Mazda MX-5 pedals are nicely spaced and well-weighted for H&T.

Red Devil

13,077 posts

209 months

Wednesday 9th April 2008
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Rob_F said:
Rossy15 said:
I found that my '95 MR2 and my current '02 Celica T-Sport are fantastic for heel and toe.
I've also found the mark2 MR2 to be the best car to do it in, as the pedals are close enough both width wise and also pedal height when on the brakes.
+1
The combination of a silky throttle and properly weighted servo action.
So many modern Euroboxes are over-servoed which makes it far harder to get right.

sleep envy

62,260 posts

250 months

Wednesday 9th April 2008
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misunderstood said:
WhoseGeneration said:
misunderstood said:
One shouldn't be heel and toeing on the public roads anyway!
Who says?.
The law says. Heel and towing is for swift actions and things should be taken at a slower pace while driving on the road. I don't even heel and toe in my racing car.
I think you might be misunderstood here



oh..

back O/T - 205 GTIs have a great set up if you have a size 9 or smaller

as to 911's still fiddling with my pedals after 18 months but still can't get it quite right