VTS Saxo phase1/mk1 1.6. Future classic?
Discussion
strada84 said:
I am of the age that would have bought Saxo VTR and a VTS models when they were new-ish and the king of the hill of the Max Power crew. Back in those days I wouldn't have touched any Saxo with a barge pole, but on the very rare occasion you see a tidy, standard, unabused Saxo VTS (I don't see any on the road if I'm honest), I think it looks good. It's also a great experience to drive a good one. It's not massively powerful, it's just light, revvy and with no frills. I'm just a bit too tall and big-footed for one as the pedals are pretty close together, but that aside I've recently become a fan of a car I really couldn't stand when they were all the rage, and that's another thing that makes a modern classic.
Good post.However, I have to say, I am size 11, 5'11" and I can honestly say I never had problems with the pedals in my VTS ( bought new in '99 ). I've often noticed people complain about them though so wouldn't argue
I'm 6'3" and Size 12 and it's not a big issue, height wise it's fine, it's just that driving position isn't ideal, but I've driven cars where it's been a lot worse!
Again, pedals you get used to. If it was a car I was driving every day, it probably wouldn't be a problem, but again it's just less than ideal and only minor negative points on what is a good, fun car.
Again, pedals you get used to. If it was a car I was driving every day, it probably wouldn't be a problem, but again it's just less than ideal and only minor negative points on what is a good, fun car.
strada84 said:
I'm 6'3" and Size 12 and it's not a big issue, height wise it's fine, it's just that driving position isn't ideal, but I've driven cars where it's been a lot worse!
Again, pedals you get used to. If it was a car I was driving every day, it probably wouldn't be a problem, but again it's just less than ideal and only minor negative points on what is a good, fun car.
The only thing I can recall making me uncomfortable on long journeys ( South of France, Italy etc) was th lack of aircon in slow moving traffic. On the autoroutes/autostrada/motorway having the sunroof on tilt and the rear quarter vents open meant you got a good flow-through of air so it was Ok there.Again, pedals you get used to. If it was a car I was driving every day, it probably wouldn't be a problem, but again it's just less than ideal and only minor negative points on what is a good, fun car.
They fixed that for the C2 VTS.....but I never really 'gelled' with the successor to the Saxo on a test drive
I was given a one owner original unmolested 1997 106 gti ( in the best colour - black)last year for free as I was a guy that was interested in cars and my friend no longer wanted it and was going to scrap it. I owned a 205 gti years ago and have to admit, as soon as I got into the 106 and drove it, it was like a blast from the past. They are a fantastic little car with such direct steering and incredible fun around the twisty bits. I fully intend to keep it now and use it occasionally for a back road blast and intend to keep it entirely original. As previous sellers have said - they have become very rare these days and for that reason and the fact that I love it anyway, I am going to hang on to it indefinitely and maintain it.
I think they will almost certainly become a classic of sorts eventually. They are pretty much an icon (good or bad) for an entire generation of petrolheads, and that alone will ensure there will be plenty of demand for very clean, unmolested examples in years to come.
As an aside, I think they deserve it too. I never owned one personally, but to me they represent one of the very last of the old style of hot-hatches before the ever-increasing obsession with horsepower began (and the inevitable over-sized / over-tyred tanks with 300+ bhp we've ended up with today). And by all accounts they absolutely nailed it.
They will always have the 'barry-boy' stigma following them around, and lets be honest their were some pretty horrific 'creations', but I think people are gradually starting overlook that and to recognize them instead for the rather accomplished hot-hatch that they were.
Whether they will see the crazy values that others have is another matter altogether, but in any event if you consider how long it's taken for cars like the 205gti & R5gt etc to reach that stage, we are still some years away from a similar time period for the Saxo.
As an aside, I think they deserve it too. I never owned one personally, but to me they represent one of the very last of the old style of hot-hatches before the ever-increasing obsession with horsepower began (and the inevitable over-sized / over-tyred tanks with 300+ bhp we've ended up with today). And by all accounts they absolutely nailed it.
They will always have the 'barry-boy' stigma following them around, and lets be honest their were some pretty horrific 'creations', but I think people are gradually starting overlook that and to recognize them instead for the rather accomplished hot-hatch that they were.
Whether they will see the crazy values that others have is another matter altogether, but in any event if you consider how long it's taken for cars like the 205gti & R5gt etc to reach that stage, we are still some years away from a similar time period for the Saxo.
sider said:
Did anybody have the 'fake' Westcoast edition?
Yes, it had a yellow gearknob, yellow silicone blobs on top of the interior door locks and every seatbelt was a different colour. ISTR it was £10,495 at the time (1998) which was before UK car prices came down in response to cheap imports and exchange rates. They've got potential, try finding either an AX GT or a Fiat Uno turbo and you'll see the problem. Too many Saxo's were ruined or crashed, in a few years time they will become desirable once no decent ones are left.
I thought that after the sporty mark 1 & 2 escorts the mark 3's would never be a classic, I was wrong. I think the same of the mark 5 RS2000 and mark 6 Mexico, prove me wrong
I thought that after the sporty mark 1 & 2 escorts the mark 3's would never be a classic, I was wrong. I think the same of the mark 5 RS2000 and mark 6 Mexico, prove me wrong
I know modern hatches are on a different level but to me lookswise they are ugly,
Its like we're in a space age or something. Too round for me i like a nice square edge ha.
Even my mk1 Saxo is'nt quite square enough for me. I like the generation before like a nice 205gti or r5gt turbo xr2 ect
Thats why i think this will be a classic because its the phase1, when the phase2 was launched
It had the new front end and i think thats when cars started looking stranger and stranger heading towards where we are now, plus theres not many left, they go like s**t, and handle like a dream
Its like we're in a space age or something. Too round for me i like a nice square edge ha.
Even my mk1 Saxo is'nt quite square enough for me. I like the generation before like a nice 205gti or r5gt turbo xr2 ect
Thats why i think this will be a classic because its the phase1, when the phase2 was launched
It had the new front end and i think thats when cars started looking stranger and stranger heading towards where we are now, plus theres not many left, they go like s**t, and handle like a dream
Ok, not a VTS, but looks about as clean as youll get, so thought Id share!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142057599180?_trksid=p20...
be interesting to see what it reaches - may give an idea of what 'the market' thinks of these at the moment
nothing to do with me, by the way!!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142057599180?_trksid=p20...
be interesting to see what it reaches - may give an idea of what 'the market' thinks of these at the moment
nothing to do with me, by the way!!
Going by the prices some are asking for a 106 Rallye I can see the VTS price getting dragged up by it. If buying now I think a 106 GTI is a safer bet as they didn't get the bad rep the Saxo got.
It's a shame about the reputation the VTS has. They really are cracking cars and have always been good value for money - except for insurance, which i guess is down to the rep.
It's a shame about the reputation the VTS has. They really are cracking cars and have always been good value for money - except for insurance, which i guess is down to the rep.
I've had a Furio, bought brand new in 2002, then a '99 Westcoast, another '99 Westcoast, then a '97 VTR, then a '00 VTR and finally a '97 VTS. My wife's got a very early ph2 '99 VTR, which we put the engine from the '97 VTS in. Plug and play conversion that could have taken less than a weekend if it weren't for the fact I had to cut a driveshaft up to get it out. Still own it to this day.
Will they be a future classic? I think yes, to an extent. The ph1 VTS, early smaller grille model in Possy blue, or one of the rarer colours, probably. The facelifted ph1 would probably be coveted too. Not convinced the ph2 will ever be as popular, though. To me, it's an old car with a more curvy front end tacked on, and as a result it doesn't look its age, which is ironically what you want in a classic.
The first problem for the Saxo VTS is the Saxo VTR, and the Furio/Westcoast to a lesser extent. The the VTS is a rare beast, and was never as common as people make out. 9/10 chavved Saxos were VTRs, and they were the reason why every man and his dog seemed to own a Saxo. They were easily the most successful model of the two, but the VTS had the grown-up engine, and was much more fun because of it. Plenty of VTR owners used to try and tell you that the VTS was no better, and that the VTR is purer blah blah.....it's all a load of rubbish. The VTR engine was a basic shopping hack, in a very relaxed state of tune. The gearing was tall, for economy, and because they set the rev limit down at 6200rpm. But because the VTR sold in such massive numbers, the VTS isn't a rare a sight on the roads as it would otherwise be, and therefore supply will still outstrip demand too much for years to come (unless you want a specific spec/colour etc, hence the comments about the very early cars being more desirable).
The second problem for the VTS is the double-Chevrons badge. Citroen aren't a popular hot hatch maker, and have ridden on the coattails of Peugeot for years. Every half-decent hot Citroen (excluding the CX GTi Turbo, which was more of a GT car anyway) has only been decent because of the Peugeot DNA buried within it. A hot Citroen used the just offer the benefits of a hot Peugeot, with more in the way of quirks and less in the way of quality (AX GT, BX 16v etc) and later models were just cheaper versions of the hot Peugeots (ZX 16v, Xsara VTS, Saxo VTS). Citroen as a maker have never carried the hot-hatch kudos that Peugeot, Ford, VW and Renault have, so any hot Citroen is always on an uphill slope to begin with when it comes to desirability, regardless of how good the car actually is.
The third problem is Peugeot itself. They made the best hot hatch ever, and every hot hatch they made since instantly generated a flurry of interest, purely because it was a Peugeot. In the case of the Saxo, it has to deal with the fact that somebody who might fancy a VTS, might also fancy a 106 GTi - a mechanically identical car - or a 106 Rallye. Those two carry more badge kudos (for those who care about image, and sadly some do think it's important) than the Saxo ever could, so for the Saxo to be worth big bucks and be regarded as a true classic of worth, the 106 would have to be even further in front, and they're held back by the fact the 205 is still more desirable. The only odd exception to this case is the AX GT, which seems to be climbing really quickly in terms of value, even compared with the 106s.
Plenty of people say that because the Saxo was so popular, interest in it will be popular in the future. I disagree. Sure, the Nova's been there and done it, as have many Fords. But there's the difference - they're not Citroens. Citroen, by and large isn't a popular brand in the UK. Vauxhall, Ford.....they've got enough fanboys to paint the land orange in rust, but Citroen don't. So factor in that the Saxo isn't as popular as it should be because it's a Citroen, and because it sold in large numbers thanks to the watered down versions like VTRs and Furios owned by most yooves, and the Saxo has a mountain to climb.
I think they'll climb in value, slowly, but unless it's a halo model I can't see it being regarded as a classic for decades yet. Shame, because they rust like one!
Will they be a future classic? I think yes, to an extent. The ph1 VTS, early smaller grille model in Possy blue, or one of the rarer colours, probably. The facelifted ph1 would probably be coveted too. Not convinced the ph2 will ever be as popular, though. To me, it's an old car with a more curvy front end tacked on, and as a result it doesn't look its age, which is ironically what you want in a classic.
The first problem for the Saxo VTS is the Saxo VTR, and the Furio/Westcoast to a lesser extent. The the VTS is a rare beast, and was never as common as people make out. 9/10 chavved Saxos were VTRs, and they were the reason why every man and his dog seemed to own a Saxo. They were easily the most successful model of the two, but the VTS had the grown-up engine, and was much more fun because of it. Plenty of VTR owners used to try and tell you that the VTS was no better, and that the VTR is purer blah blah.....it's all a load of rubbish. The VTR engine was a basic shopping hack, in a very relaxed state of tune. The gearing was tall, for economy, and because they set the rev limit down at 6200rpm. But because the VTR sold in such massive numbers, the VTS isn't a rare a sight on the roads as it would otherwise be, and therefore supply will still outstrip demand too much for years to come (unless you want a specific spec/colour etc, hence the comments about the very early cars being more desirable).
The second problem for the VTS is the double-Chevrons badge. Citroen aren't a popular hot hatch maker, and have ridden on the coattails of Peugeot for years. Every half-decent hot Citroen (excluding the CX GTi Turbo, which was more of a GT car anyway) has only been decent because of the Peugeot DNA buried within it. A hot Citroen used the just offer the benefits of a hot Peugeot, with more in the way of quirks and less in the way of quality (AX GT, BX 16v etc) and later models were just cheaper versions of the hot Peugeots (ZX 16v, Xsara VTS, Saxo VTS). Citroen as a maker have never carried the hot-hatch kudos that Peugeot, Ford, VW and Renault have, so any hot Citroen is always on an uphill slope to begin with when it comes to desirability, regardless of how good the car actually is.
The third problem is Peugeot itself. They made the best hot hatch ever, and every hot hatch they made since instantly generated a flurry of interest, purely because it was a Peugeot. In the case of the Saxo, it has to deal with the fact that somebody who might fancy a VTS, might also fancy a 106 GTi - a mechanically identical car - or a 106 Rallye. Those two carry more badge kudos (for those who care about image, and sadly some do think it's important) than the Saxo ever could, so for the Saxo to be worth big bucks and be regarded as a true classic of worth, the 106 would have to be even further in front, and they're held back by the fact the 205 is still more desirable. The only odd exception to this case is the AX GT, which seems to be climbing really quickly in terms of value, even compared with the 106s.
Plenty of people say that because the Saxo was so popular, interest in it will be popular in the future. I disagree. Sure, the Nova's been there and done it, as have many Fords. But there's the difference - they're not Citroens. Citroen, by and large isn't a popular brand in the UK. Vauxhall, Ford.....they've got enough fanboys to paint the land orange in rust, but Citroen don't. So factor in that the Saxo isn't as popular as it should be because it's a Citroen, and because it sold in large numbers thanks to the watered down versions like VTRs and Furios owned by most yooves, and the Saxo has a mountain to climb.
I think they'll climb in value, slowly, but unless it's a halo model I can't see it being regarded as a classic for decades yet. Shame, because they rust like one!
Kitchski said:
Visa GTi used 205 GTi underpinnings
And the Visa used 104 platform.And that's exactly why you can't really separate Peugeot, Citroen and PSA like that - everything launched since 1974, under both (all three, now) brands has come from the same central parts bin.
But, yes, back in the day, the GS X and Ami Super were just about as hot as anything of that size from France.
V8RX7 said:
Of course it will be.
Classic cars become so when they were desirable and you couldn't afford one at the time OR in this case when you owned one when you were young and want to recapture your youth.
When the 17-20yr olds become 40-50 they'll want one again just as I want 205GTi, Golf Mk2 etc.
Exactly that, look how many escorts are commanding good money and are being converted into rally reps, as people try to recapture their youth. Classic cars become so when they were desirable and you couldn't afford one at the time OR in this case when you owned one when you were young and want to recapture your youth.
When the 17-20yr olds become 40-50 they'll want one again just as I want 205GTi, Golf Mk2 etc.
I think someone mentioned 205 gti's haven't reached stupid money, yet, I personally consider £18k for one a little stupid.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...
I personally wouldn't pay that, but i'm in no position to talk as i send silly amounts of money on Beetles, nostalgia does cost
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
And the ABS, passenger airbag, thicker anti-roll bars and bigger wheels on 99-onwards cars.30bhp in most guises, it was only the later 2001 onwards VTRs that had the 98bhp setup. The VTS is everything the VTR is up until around 4500rpm, then it gets a kick up its arse the VTR just doesn't have. Factor in the longer 2nd gear in the VTS, plus the fact it keeps the power coming for an additional 1000rpm over the VTR, and in the real world it's a fair bit faster. 2 secs 0-60mph difference (and around 6-7secs by the time you've got to the ton) is noteworthy.
I'm speaking as someone who took and a VTR, ran it daily for a couple of years, then fitted a VTS engine to the same car. It's a 30% power increase and barely any change in weight.
I've dyno'd lots of TU cars over the years, and have overlaid the graphs to see what the differences were. AX GT, 106 S1 Rallye, VTR, XSi.....all pretty similar. The 16v engine just has more of everything, nearly all the time.
TooMany2cvs said:
But, yes, back in the day, the GS X and Ami Super were just about as hot as anything of that size from France.
Hot for what they were and where they came from, but as hot as a frozen haddock compared with the kind of stuff we're talking about.Both immensely cool, mind. I'd love either, and should imagine they're both a riot to drive. But hot? I think that's stretching it.
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