VTS Saxo phase1/mk1 1.6. Future classic?
Discussion
andy-xr said:
The VTS is the 16v (better) and the VTR is the 8V (slower) one, right?
Correct.The VTR was a lot slower than the VTS because they gave it a bizarre set of gear ratios. The engine itself is a good unit, but saddling it with weird ratios made it a really unappealing combo.
The VTS will keep up with a Clio 172 quite happily.
TooMany2cvs said:
TankRizzo said:
There is no doubt to me that the Saxo VTS will rise in value, but only for the cleanest standard examples.
I'd say it was already happening. And, yes, that caveat is vital. I hope you've kept the standard alloys, OP - although there are plenty of sets about.205GTi values are already silly, and AX GT values are definitely well on the way.
TooMany2cvs said:
andy-xr said:
The VTS is the 16v (better) and the VTR is the 8V (slower) one, right?
Yep. There was also a VTL in many markets (Furio here) which had the same kit, with the 1.4 or 1.6 depending on market.So more/better, yes. But back in the day the VTS was more expensive to buy and was compared with the 106, while the VTR was cheaper to buy (and insure, which was critical for me coming from bikes with 0 no claims bonus) and it was perceived in a lower class, a bit like Mini Cooper S/Cooper are now. Nobody is twin testing a Cooper v Cooper S, but depreciation now means VTR and VTS are compared.
Personally I loved my VTR. The handling was just absurdly good. So light and balanced front to rear and communicative. An awesome B road blaster. And I found it surprisingly comfortable on London to west-country runs as well. Especially considering it's so flimsy (my sunroof leaked from about 12 months).
So I'd buy a decent, standard VTR or VTS regardless of whether they're going up in value. Because they're already great value, if you can find a good one.
IMO, will a good one rise in value, yes. But not so much for it to be viewed as an investment. Any rise will surely be offset by maintenance costs, so it could be viewed as cheap motoring?
540 on the road is still quite a few, maybe much less than 100 S2 106 Rallyes left, one of which I own..
540 on the road is still quite a few, maybe much less than 100 S2 106 Rallyes left, one of which I own..
I think that as clean unmodified VTS's become rarer and rarer the price will go up. Whether it reaches the level of the 205 GTi or Golf GTi (Mk1 or Mk2)I think its doubtful. The Golf and the 205 are icons of their age/type, and also like it or not, is the Escort RS Turbo, especially the series one version. Indeed at auction this year somebody paid £60k for a 5000 mile RS Turbo, and £25k for a restored 205 GTi 1.9. An unregistered Talbot Sunbeam Lotus went for £50k in November 2014. 80's and 90's cars, are now enjoying a renaissance as they are remembered by people who are now a little older and may be able to indulge themselves with a modern classic. The other thing with these cars is that build quality had been improved dramatically (albeit from a low base) over anything built in the 70's and therefore if well cared for the cars last and are eminently restorable even if in poor condition. I think any hot hatch or sports car from this era is going to see some form of collectability, not all will be worth a fortune, but they are worth preserving and should see gentle value increases. And as we all know ANY increase in value in the world of cars is a good thing compared to the savage depreciation we normally suffer. My collection would include GTi's RS's, Type R's, GT Turbo's 16v's,GTE's, MR2's, GT Four's, (not forgetting 182 Trophy!). Not your lottery winners choices, but all so important to the culture that drives communities such as PH.
Earl of Petrol said:
Whether it reaches the level of the 205 GTi or Golf GTi (Mk1 or Mk2)I think its doubtful. The Golf and the 205 are icons of their age/type
80's and 90's cars, are now enjoying a renaissance as they are remembered by people who are now a little older and may be able to indulge themselves with a modern classic.
And that's all why the Saxo VTR/VTS will follow the 205 and early Golfs, I think. Add in that subsequent generations lost the rawness (which the Saxo itself was already losing over the AX etc), and just became ever more complex.80's and 90's cars, are now enjoying a renaissance as they are remembered by people who are now a little older and may be able to indulge themselves with a modern classic.
I was thinking about this the other day. I think both the VTS and the VTR will become sought after.
They were bought by lots of young drivers (including me in 2002) as their first 'performance' car, due to good deals and reasonable insurance. A lot of them have been chavved and killed since then and I suspect a lot met their maker during the scrappage scheme.
So, a limited supply of good ones, plus a sentimental attachment for a generation of drivers means that these will probably become sought after by those who loved them when they were new and now have more money for a trip down memory lane.
They were bought by lots of young drivers (including me in 2002) as their first 'performance' car, due to good deals and reasonable insurance. A lot of them have been chavved and killed since then and I suspect a lot met their maker during the scrappage scheme.
So, a limited supply of good ones, plus a sentimental attachment for a generation of drivers means that these will probably become sought after by those who loved them when they were new and now have more money for a trip down memory lane.
Whether or not they become a 'classic', they'll always be a tremendous car to drive. They certainly deserve to be remembered as some of the last lightweight hot hatches, and not the chav s
t that so many were 'modified' into. We afford the 5 GT Turbo and the 205 GTi the same dignity, after all.
I've never driven a mk1 VTS but I've tried a VTR and mk2 VTS. Really enjoyed the VTS. The VTR engine needed to rev more though. Excellent handling and feel is a given. I used to have an S2 106 Rallye and it was such a laugh to thrash down a B road. The tactile feedback, adjustability and handling ability was unparalleled at the price point. Loved the engine too. The French were the undisputed masters of setting up a small hatch. I don't think any manufacturer would have the balls to produce a mainstream hatch that is so lively on a trailing throttle.
t that so many were 'modified' into. We afford the 5 GT Turbo and the 205 GTi the same dignity, after all. I've never driven a mk1 VTS but I've tried a VTR and mk2 VTS. Really enjoyed the VTS. The VTR engine needed to rev more though. Excellent handling and feel is a given. I used to have an S2 106 Rallye and it was such a laugh to thrash down a B road. The tactile feedback, adjustability and handling ability was unparalleled at the price point. Loved the engine too. The French were the undisputed masters of setting up a small hatch. I don't think any manufacturer would have the balls to produce a mainstream hatch that is so lively on a trailing throttle.
After the mk1 mustard yellow Nova SR I learned to drive in. I bought a brand spanking new phave 2 Saxo VTR, I was 17 at the time. The paste 2 had "98" bhp as standard. Bodywork wise mine was standard but later on I added a BTB exhaust system, the same one used on the Saxo sports in the race series, an uprated cam and a carbon fibre ram air induction kit. Made 136bhp on a rolling road day. Probably one of the most fun and pure cars I've owned.
The reason you don't see many of these around these days and the same with the AX is that theyou are made from tin foil and the build quality is shocking. I never crashed my Saxo but I did have a beautifully mint citröen AX GT500 in black. Less than 25k miles fully serviced every year for its 16 year life and bought from the only owner who was an old man in his 70s. I crashed it in extreme rain on the m4 when the traffic came to a a sudden stop, with the AX reputation for its shocking brakes I had no chance of stopping. Think I crashed at around 50mph and the car was a right state.
The reason you don't see many of these around these days and the same with the AX is that theyou are made from tin foil and the build quality is shocking. I never crashed my Saxo but I did have a beautifully mint citröen AX GT500 in black. Less than 25k miles fully serviced every year for its 16 year life and bought from the only owner who was an old man in his 70s. I crashed it in extreme rain on the m4 when the traffic came to a a sudden stop, with the AX reputation for its shocking brakes I had no chance of stopping. Think I crashed at around 50mph and the car was a right state.
Alex_225 said:
As with many an affordable quick car, there'll be plenty either crashed or badly modified or both. So a standard low mileage example would eventually appreciate in value and opinion.
In my driving lifetime I've seen the Saxo rise as the new hot hatch of choice, get ruined by BarryBoy types and now they're pretty rare so I could see a nice one being seen in the same light as a standard Renault 5 GT Turbo or Pug 205 GTI.
MKI Clio 172 has potential too, as will the 182 Trophy and I'd like to think the relative rarity of the Twingo 133 would see similar kudos but who knows.
Given enough time any relatively rare, older car will obtain some kind of credibility. When I was first driving an old MKIII Escort was ten a penny and a white XR3i was deemed a bit naff. Find one now and they're worth a good chunk of money.
There were only 500 odd twingo 133 sold in the uk. 1600 odd gt's.In my driving lifetime I've seen the Saxo rise as the new hot hatch of choice, get ruined by BarryBoy types and now they're pretty rare so I could see a nice one being seen in the same light as a standard Renault 5 GT Turbo or Pug 205 GTI.
MKI Clio 172 has potential too, as will the 182 Trophy and I'd like to think the relative rarity of the Twingo 133 would see similar kudos but who knows.
Given enough time any relatively rare, older car will obtain some kind of credibility. When I was first driving an old MKIII Escort was ten a penny and a white XR3i was deemed a bit naff. Find one now and they're worth a good chunk of money.
Anyway, I reckon the VTS will be a classic. The VTR's, furio etc, not so much. I had a 106 for 7 years or so. Great cars.
HerrSchnell said:
However R5s also looked like this;
and were never molested in the kinds of numbers which the Saxo was.
The R5 is part of a first generation of it's particular niche with a broad motorsport heritage behind it, the ruination of a relatively small number of the type hasn't polluted those elements of it's history which lead to it's current status as modern classic.
The Saxo VTS enjoys neither the honour of being part of a trailbreaking group nor of an association with flame spitting halo breed racers whilst also having been the de facto choice for barryfication and thus any merits it may have are overshadowed by the whiff of McDonalds car parks and fibreglass resin.
Snobby, fickle and unfair it may be but that is the nature of the game.
Popped in to say this but you got there first and much more eloquently too.and were never molested in the kinds of numbers which the Saxo was.
The R5 is part of a first generation of it's particular niche with a broad motorsport heritage behind it, the ruination of a relatively small number of the type hasn't polluted those elements of it's history which lead to it's current status as modern classic.
The Saxo VTS enjoys neither the honour of being part of a trailbreaking group nor of an association with flame spitting halo breed racers whilst also having been the de facto choice for barryfication and thus any merits it may have are overshadowed by the whiff of McDonalds car parks and fibreglass resin.
Snobby, fickle and unfair it may be but that is the nature of the game.
Gassing Station | French Bred | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff