R56 MCS Suspension/Chassis upgrades - best value?
Discussion
E-bmw said:
I will be getting my geo set up this time home & was aiming for similar figures with having adjustable camber.
I was also going to go for dead ahead toe front & rear unless there evidence to the contrary for these cars.
I don't recommend 0 toe on the rear. Only for people who know what it could actually do to the handling and can deal with it. I was also going to go for dead ahead toe front & rear unless there evidence to the contrary for these cars.
SlimJim16v said:
It could make it more liable to unintended/unwanted oversteer. The rubber in the suspension could give toe out when under load, so even more likely to oversteer.
I would save 0 toe on the rear for a track car. You can however reduce the stupid amount of std toe in.
It is a track day/road car, I am used to a rwd 328 bm so that doesn't really worry me, I have also fully poly-bushed it.I would save 0 toe on the rear for a track car. You can however reduce the stupid amount of std toe in.
Does that make the answer any different?
E-bmw said:
Does that make the answer any different?
Yep, it does, however, I would still like the smallest bit of toe in on if it were mine. You would be better getting a more informed opinion from someone who's actually tried it. But again, it depends on their setup, different dampers, springs, anti-roll bars all have an input.
This thread has evolved somewhat,
As usual, many opinions regarding suspension.
Complex, at the level of alteration you're at or were seeking, weight saving at the wheels I doubt will matter, but you sound like you're committed now, which et did you go for? I would say 37 for the front, but that is considering future coilovers which will foul the tyre potentially, well could with OE wheels.
E Bmw, front toe neutral is ok, that or very slight toe in, the track rods are behind the hub so the toe goes negative on throttle slightly, positive under braking.
Rear, 3 minutes toe in will be fine, there's a bit of movement on compression,
Complex, you said earlier: "My uneducated comments on how I find the stock suspension:
- Obviously the very firm ride, but on the brink of tolerable. Far less comfortable than my friends' stock 182 clio or even coilovered (and heavily modded in every way) '05 Megane F1. - this can be down to tyres, old suspension, shorter travel the Mini has, spring rate, damping rate, but hard to compare really.
- Initial turn-in and loading up the car is fine and intuitive enough, though is a little slack and seems to take a second for the weight to settle - maybe that is me being fussy and without too much to compare it to in terms of other hot FWD cars. - Your Mini has progressive springs, and a pretty flimsy rear anti roll bar, I suspect the settling sensation could be the springs. Something for consideration when shopping for aftermarket kit, you might still feel this?
- The car is deflected pretty easily on less-than-good surfaces and even at constant throttle needs a lot of input on the steering to keep it straight. - This could be your tyres, and geometry in particular, plus the front bushes mentioned,
- The front can be pretty easily unsettled when coming out of a corner on non-perfect surfaces. It quite often bounces up a little and absolutely ruins traction even when from where I'm sitting the bump feels mild. - Bushes, geometry, tyres, and no LSD as previously mentioned.
Somewhat related to the above but a different strand of discussion: I am still using the tyres the car came with as they were all relatively new: Dunlop SP01s on the rear and budget stters on the front which I'm having fun trying to grind down. What are people's thoughts on deliberately underspeccing their tyres so that for road use the limit comes at a more reasonable speed? My default choice would be to put PS4s all round but might consider something mid-range as I'm more interested in learning FWD car control and having fun than maximum grip and outright speed. - I understand where your coming from, but don't believe it's the answer. The thread has continued and you've bought wheels now, but still, despite additional comfort from 16's, you might have less traction with a taller tyre. I would definitely fit adjustable top mounts to avoid loading the sidewall which I feel now is inevitable, and if searching for coilovers see which come with them, not all do. I would be inclined personally to seek linear sprung sets but that's me, and I have them. PS4's have great reviews, and will work on track, but I think a tall tyre on a Mini could be working hard, so as above, needs that negative adjustment.
I agree the Crown wheels are heavy, I had Web Design split rims as OE but fitted JCW R112's, just for an original look, sorry if I missed anything, it's late, will read more tomorrow. Also don't (my2p) obsess about doing these bolt on things at Lohen, it really isn't that specialist stuff right now, good local is ok.
As usual, many opinions regarding suspension.
Complex, at the level of alteration you're at or were seeking, weight saving at the wheels I doubt will matter, but you sound like you're committed now, which et did you go for? I would say 37 for the front, but that is considering future coilovers which will foul the tyre potentially, well could with OE wheels.
E Bmw, front toe neutral is ok, that or very slight toe in, the track rods are behind the hub so the toe goes negative on throttle slightly, positive under braking.
Rear, 3 minutes toe in will be fine, there's a bit of movement on compression,
Complex, you said earlier: "My uneducated comments on how I find the stock suspension:
- Obviously the very firm ride, but on the brink of tolerable. Far less comfortable than my friends' stock 182 clio or even coilovered (and heavily modded in every way) '05 Megane F1. - this can be down to tyres, old suspension, shorter travel the Mini has, spring rate, damping rate, but hard to compare really.
- Initial turn-in and loading up the car is fine and intuitive enough, though is a little slack and seems to take a second for the weight to settle - maybe that is me being fussy and without too much to compare it to in terms of other hot FWD cars. - Your Mini has progressive springs, and a pretty flimsy rear anti roll bar, I suspect the settling sensation could be the springs. Something for consideration when shopping for aftermarket kit, you might still feel this?
- The car is deflected pretty easily on less-than-good surfaces and even at constant throttle needs a lot of input on the steering to keep it straight. - This could be your tyres, and geometry in particular, plus the front bushes mentioned,
- The front can be pretty easily unsettled when coming out of a corner on non-perfect surfaces. It quite often bounces up a little and absolutely ruins traction even when from where I'm sitting the bump feels mild. - Bushes, geometry, tyres, and no LSD as previously mentioned.
Somewhat related to the above but a different strand of discussion: I am still using the tyres the car came with as they were all relatively new: Dunlop SP01s on the rear and budget stters on the front which I'm having fun trying to grind down. What are people's thoughts on deliberately underspeccing their tyres so that for road use the limit comes at a more reasonable speed? My default choice would be to put PS4s all round but might consider something mid-range as I'm more interested in learning FWD car control and having fun than maximum grip and outright speed. - I understand where your coming from, but don't believe it's the answer. The thread has continued and you've bought wheels now, but still, despite additional comfort from 16's, you might have less traction with a taller tyre. I would definitely fit adjustable top mounts to avoid loading the sidewall which I feel now is inevitable, and if searching for coilovers see which come with them, not all do. I would be inclined personally to seek linear sprung sets but that's me, and I have them. PS4's have great reviews, and will work on track, but I think a tall tyre on a Mini could be working hard, so as above, needs that negative adjustment.
I agree the Crown wheels are heavy, I had Web Design split rims as OE but fitted JCW R112's, just for an original look, sorry if I missed anything, it's late, will read more tomorrow. Also don't (my2p) obsess about doing these bolt on things at Lohen, it really isn't that specialist stuff right now, good local is ok.
thinking on...........perhaps make enquiries as to spring rates, most road going customers have no idea what they have I suspect, and many vendors may not actually know either. See how many have to come back to you? Meister have messed around with rates, which is really good. They behave strangely though haha, I met them 7 years ago at Autosport, they had a stand with wheels, little high power hand held car power packs (to start the car), and Meister R coilovers. The kit looked alright, I think mine was better but I would haha. The strange issue I find is from forum stuff, they can't make a decision, like they don't know what they can get hold of, they say they don't carry much in stock, and this is in regard to a group buy of ten sets of kit. I find that odd as it's taken them weeks to reply as to whether they can do it at all.
Anyway, spring rates! For what it's worth mine are 6kg/mm rear 8kg/mm front, the car is firm, you can't exactly bounce it when stationary haha.
Consider.....performance springs operate within a range, a little like your engine, torque might be between 1.5k and 4k, HP between 3k and 5.5k, the spring will maybe have its best performance range with a load of 'x' mm travel to 'x' mm of travel under certain loads. Hopefully this is the effort applied at your a) most common driving style or b) your most enjoyable driving style, whatever you shopped for, both are a compromise of one for the other often.
Also have a think about what people are setting their kit to, you already said you don't want low, for me, there is limited travel on these cars we know, so why use so much of it in static sag or droop whatever you want to call it, my coilover manufacturer said this should be between 30 and 50mm, I use 50 on the road, something tells me this data may get ignored with some installers in favour of stance etc. I don't actually know but it is a thought, and users will say theirs has been fine, never had a problem etc. Installers probably don't give the settings to the owners. Owners perhaps show more interest in height?
My point there is for further consideration, and that is if there is 200mm travel, the car is lowered, maybe 100mm given to stance, you have half the travel, and expect to get a spring which might be a single perch type coil (lower also means less spring preload, and can still be a progressive spring) to get to and operate in it's range, within 100mm, realistically? I don't think so, then I'm no scientist, cannot detail loads in formulae, volume, displacement etc.
All I can do is use my weird sense of logic to help explain my understanding of the design and operation, and installation of vehicle components haha.
Anyway, spring rates! For what it's worth mine are 6kg/mm rear 8kg/mm front, the car is firm, you can't exactly bounce it when stationary haha.
Consider.....performance springs operate within a range, a little like your engine, torque might be between 1.5k and 4k, HP between 3k and 5.5k, the spring will maybe have its best performance range with a load of 'x' mm travel to 'x' mm of travel under certain loads. Hopefully this is the effort applied at your a) most common driving style or b) your most enjoyable driving style, whatever you shopped for, both are a compromise of one for the other often.
Also have a think about what people are setting their kit to, you already said you don't want low, for me, there is limited travel on these cars we know, so why use so much of it in static sag or droop whatever you want to call it, my coilover manufacturer said this should be between 30 and 50mm, I use 50 on the road, something tells me this data may get ignored with some installers in favour of stance etc. I don't actually know but it is a thought, and users will say theirs has been fine, never had a problem etc. Installers probably don't give the settings to the owners. Owners perhaps show more interest in height?
My point there is for further consideration, and that is if there is 200mm travel, the car is lowered, maybe 100mm given to stance, you have half the travel, and expect to get a spring which might be a single perch type coil (lower also means less spring preload, and can still be a progressive spring) to get to and operate in it's range, within 100mm, realistically? I don't think so, then I'm no scientist, cannot detail loads in formulae, volume, displacement etc.
All I can do is use my weird sense of logic to help explain my understanding of the design and operation, and installation of vehicle components haha.
CarsOrBikes said:
E Bmw, front toe neutral is ok, that or very slight toe in, the track rods are behind the hub so the toe goes negative on throttle slightly, positive under braking.
Rear, 3 minutes toe in will be fine, there's a bit of movement on compression,
OK, I will defer to your experience of the car & try that.Rear, 3 minutes toe in will be fine, there's a bit of movement on compression,
Good topic, I like the way it's evolved.
Possibly not adding much to what's already been said, but IMO first place to start is definitely tyres and possibly wheels given you're still on the runflats. I downsized to 16" soon after getting my R56 MCS, running 205/55/16 Hankook Ventus Prime 3's for £55/corner fitted (based on several reviews but mainly this test: http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2016-AutoBild... Bought new 16" Rib spoke alloys from German eBay for peanuts. Saved 4.8kg PER WHEEL: 21.3kg each for 17” with RFT vs 16.5kg for 16” with non-RFT. Ride quality much improved.
I personally find the ride not too bad in isolation. It'd probably be a bad idea (for my wallet) if I experienced better setups - whatever they might be - as I'm happy enough with what it does.
Interested in the comments about flywheel as I feel the engine isn't quite responsive enough, but again this is my first turbo petrol after many n/a petrols so I'm not sure how it compares to similar cars.
And for a pure enjoyment factor, I fitted a JCW backbox as the standard car's too quiet IMO. Probably too subtle for many, but a really nice improvement. My MINI's also used for family duties with 2 under-5's so I had to keep it low key. Doesn't improve the ride/handing but certainly improves the enjoyment for me.
16" - very uncommon. Yet to see another Cooper S on 16s as vast majority have the chilli pack. Guess mine's now half-chilli...
Possibly not adding much to what's already been said, but IMO first place to start is definitely tyres and possibly wheels given you're still on the runflats. I downsized to 16" soon after getting my R56 MCS, running 205/55/16 Hankook Ventus Prime 3's for £55/corner fitted (based on several reviews but mainly this test: http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2016-AutoBild... Bought new 16" Rib spoke alloys from German eBay for peanuts. Saved 4.8kg PER WHEEL: 21.3kg each for 17” with RFT vs 16.5kg for 16” with non-RFT. Ride quality much improved.
I personally find the ride not too bad in isolation. It'd probably be a bad idea (for my wallet) if I experienced better setups - whatever they might be - as I'm happy enough with what it does.
Interested in the comments about flywheel as I feel the engine isn't quite responsive enough, but again this is my first turbo petrol after many n/a petrols so I'm not sure how it compares to similar cars.
And for a pure enjoyment factor, I fitted a JCW backbox as the standard car's too quiet IMO. Probably too subtle for many, but a really nice improvement. My MINI's also used for family duties with 2 under-5's so I had to keep it low key. Doesn't improve the ride/handing but certainly improves the enjoyment for me.
16" - very uncommon. Yet to see another Cooper S on 16s as vast majority have the chilli pack. Guess mine's now half-chilli...
Edited by a11y_m on Monday 20th November 22:05
Mr.Brick said:
Any experience with Wavetrac LSD here ?
I did consider one, but watching video's of the operation with little to no traction, it dragged the other wheel into action so slowly that for a similarly priced diff to the Quaife, and having wear parts, I'd rather have the Quaife for now, so installed one I had. It's good, but think I'll look to try a plate diff at some time too. a11y_m said:
16" - very uncommon. Yet to see another Cooper S on 16s as vast majority have the chilli pack. Guess mine's now half-chilli...
Thanks for posting photo, been looking for one of these wheels on a Cooper S, now bought same set to go on my 2011 R56Edited by a11y_m on Monday 20th November 22:05
Also got some Koni FSD's on way to me so will be interesting to see how much the standard car ride can be improved
Sorry for thread highjack
twokcc said:
Thanks for posting photo, been looking for one of these wheels on a Cooper S, now bought same set to go on my 2011 R56
Also got some Koni FSD's on way to me so will be interesting to see how much the standard car ride can be improved
Sorry for thread highjack
Would be interested to know how you go with the konis..Also got some Koni FSD's on way to me so will be interesting to see how much the standard car ride can be improved
Sorry for thread highjack
twokcc said:
a11y_m said:
16" - very uncommon. Yet to see another Cooper S on 16s as vast majority have the chilli pack. Guess mine's now half-chilli...
Thanks for posting photo, been looking for one of these wheels on a Cooper S, now bought same set to go on my 2011 R56Edited by a11y_m on Monday 20th November 22:05
Also got some Koni FSD's on way to me so will be interesting to see how much the standard car ride can be improved
Sorry for thread highjack
Some thread re-ignition here but I have done some refining of what I'll be doing in terms of progressively upgrading the suspension/chassis.
In the next week or so I'm due to have:
- 16 Assetto Gara with Pilot Sport 4s in 205/55 all round.
- Alta 22mm RARB
- Powerflex bushes to engine mount + front wishbone rears
- Geo @ Lohen
Now, I'm pretty much settled on my coilovers, they will either be Meister Rs (though now slightly disinclined to them due to them being monotube and somewhat more track focused that than I might like, albeit branded road/track) or ST XTAs.
The only thing I'm considering are perhaps picking up some 2nd hand KW V2s or ST XAs and then supplying my own top mounts, in the case that I do this, how sensitive will things be to me getting either:
https://orranje.co.uk/shop-by-car/bmw-mini/mini-ge...
or RTMs/ Vorshlags at three time the cost?
The difference in retail between XTA and XAs are around £220 and with the only difference being the top mounts, I could split between and just get Silver Projects or perhaps second hand RTMs? I do appreciate the value in doing things properly and not on-the-cheap but I also may not need top quality over-engineered parts for the type of use I'm proposing - 13k miles a year commuting/business with around 1-2k for fun.
Also a general query on coilover reliability: are these to be seen as a consumable item given I'm doing around 14,000 miles a year in the car in all weather and temps or will regular lithium greasing be perfectly adequate? For my kind of use and the fact I won't be tracking the car much, is anything other than KWs a false economy?
In the next week or so I'm due to have:
- 16 Assetto Gara with Pilot Sport 4s in 205/55 all round.
- Alta 22mm RARB
- Powerflex bushes to engine mount + front wishbone rears
- Geo @ Lohen
Now, I'm pretty much settled on my coilovers, they will either be Meister Rs (though now slightly disinclined to them due to them being monotube and somewhat more track focused that than I might like, albeit branded road/track) or ST XTAs.
The only thing I'm considering are perhaps picking up some 2nd hand KW V2s or ST XAs and then supplying my own top mounts, in the case that I do this, how sensitive will things be to me getting either:
https://orranje.co.uk/shop-by-car/bmw-mini/mini-ge...
or RTMs/ Vorshlags at three time the cost?
The difference in retail between XTA and XAs are around £220 and with the only difference being the top mounts, I could split between and just get Silver Projects or perhaps second hand RTMs? I do appreciate the value in doing things properly and not on-the-cheap but I also may not need top quality over-engineered parts for the type of use I'm proposing - 13k miles a year commuting/business with around 1-2k for fun.
Also a general query on coilover reliability: are these to be seen as a consumable item given I'm doing around 14,000 miles a year in the car in all weather and temps or will regular lithium greasing be perfectly adequate? For my kind of use and the fact I won't be tracking the car much, is anything other than KWs a false economy?
Just thought I would add my 2p on coilovers on my r53, having now had them on a couple of weeks & driven a few miles now on many different road surfaces.
BC/BR coilovers are one of the few manufacturers that are damping adjustable on the car.
They also come with top mounts on both front & rear sets.
The set up I have is (in a nutshell) fully poly-bushed front/rear & engine, BC/BR coilovers, 16" wheels on 205 55 tyres, rear adjustable lower arms.
I am set up with a conservative 1.5 degree - camber on the fronts 0.5 degree - camber on the rears, 2mm front & rear toe in.
I am 1 click up from the bottom on front damping & 3 up on the rear.
My comments thus far are it rides & handles excellent on all but the VERY worst surfaces.
The only other thing I intend to do for the moment after using it for a couple of hundred miles is to up the pre-load slightly on the rears with 1 more click of damping & I think it will be pretty much perfect for the road.
BC/BR coilovers are one of the few manufacturers that are damping adjustable on the car.
They also come with top mounts on both front & rear sets.
The set up I have is (in a nutshell) fully poly-bushed front/rear & engine, BC/BR coilovers, 16" wheels on 205 55 tyres, rear adjustable lower arms.
I am set up with a conservative 1.5 degree - camber on the fronts 0.5 degree - camber on the rears, 2mm front & rear toe in.
I am 1 click up from the bottom on front damping & 3 up on the rear.
My comments thus far are it rides & handles excellent on all but the VERY worst surfaces.
The only other thing I intend to do for the moment after using it for a couple of hundred miles is to up the pre-load slightly on the rears with 1 more click of damping & I think it will be pretty much perfect for the road.
Thanks for the feedback. That is sort of frustrating to hear as I had used the fact that BR/Meister Rs were slightly more fast fast road/track focused than the STs to narrow down my choices and sort of funnel myself into a decision. Sounds like if BRs are fine then the new Mesiter R ZetaCRD+ will be more than enough.
Still leaves outstanding the point of how well they (or any non KW Inox) will last on 14k+ miles a year all year round. I do not particularly want to be in this position 30,000 miles down the line with rusty/seizing coilovers.
Not the worst position to be in: to have 3-4 potential coilovers to install rather than 1 (subject to whether Silver Project top mounts will suffice, if they don't then I may be priced out of some).
Still leaves outstanding the point of how well they (or any non KW Inox) will last on 14k+ miles a year all year round. I do not particularly want to be in this position 30,000 miles down the line with rusty/seizing coilovers.
Not the worst position to be in: to have 3-4 potential coilovers to install rather than 1 (subject to whether Silver Project top mounts will suffice, if they don't then I may be priced out of some).
I fairly regularly spray mine with a wd type lube, and wipe them all over. They get a good soaking and grit gets rinsed out of the threads, sometimes I split the collars and run them up the threads, then spray under so the lube runs into the thread, then I have a really sticky spray on grease that dries a bit to spray onto the threads when tightened back up, it also runs into the thread a little and helps seal it, the whole job takes a few minutes a corner really and is done while I remove the wheels to clean and inspect. I wouldn't leave this more than 3 months on yours, and spend longer on them. My springs are rusting and I expect you'll see the same, but they can be easily coated. I also note I have a couple of stains on the anodised top mounts at the rear which is from wheel cleaner. The underside of the front top mounts also rusts, so the sticky spray grease is my friend there now haha.
These are a specialist component that needs attention. The directions will say the same, you cannot fit and forget. The collars require regular checks too.
These are a specialist component that needs attention. The directions will say the same, you cannot fit and forget. The collars require regular checks too.
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