R56 MCS Suspension/Chassis upgrades - best value?
Discussion
Thanks for the response. That’s quite interesting given that in the hundreds of threads I’ve read in the subject, that level of maintenance hasn’t ever been mentioned. That might change my view on getting them at all given I don’t have a ramp, nor tools, nor any mechanical knowledge m, nor any inclination to get my hands messy.
Edited by Complex on Saturday 2nd December 00:53
I think that reflects the fact sellers don't want customers to worry about it
Customers don't generally understand or even want to look ha
It's just me haha
There are some rank pictures around of stuff not just removed that people are selling, but also gear that's about to be fitted like it, amazing.
Really you can ignore it, but it will look old in a year and 14k. For your investment in it, spend some time. Even coating it all in grease, or whatever.
Once these things are set there's no need to go back to mess with them, but as I've said before they're a specialised product, and finished as such.
These are mine after just over two years, the steel parts, IE: springs, and front lower brackets, are the things starting to rust a little, easy to resolve.
Customers don't generally understand or even want to look ha
It's just me haha
There are some rank pictures around of stuff not just removed that people are selling, but also gear that's about to be fitted like it, amazing.
Really you can ignore it, but it will look old in a year and 14k. For your investment in it, spend some time. Even coating it all in grease, or whatever.
Once these things are set there's no need to go back to mess with them, but as I've said before they're a specialised product, and finished as such.
These are mine after just over two years, the steel parts, IE: springs, and front lower brackets, are the things starting to rust a little, easy to resolve.
Having bushes, tyres and a new RARB fitted this week - I have bought a of adjustable rear control arms with a view to them getting fitted next year if/when I go for coilolvers.
Will I see much benefit in fitting them now with stock suspension? Conscious of incurring more labour cost right now if it might give little benefit given the car won’t be going much/at all lower yet?
Will I see much benefit in fitting them now with stock suspension? Conscious of incurring more labour cost right now if it might give little benefit given the car won’t be going much/at all lower yet?
Complex said:
Having bushes, tyres and a new RARB fitted this week - I have bought a of adjustable rear control arms with a view to them getting fitted next year if/when I go for coilolvers.
Will I see much benefit in fitting them now with stock suspension? Conscious of incurring more labour cost right now if it might give little benefit given the car won’t be going much/at all lower yet?
It'll allow you to adjust rear camber but no point on stock suspension - the idea is that these allow the bottom of the rear wheels to be pulled in towards the car if you see what I mean, which is only of benefit if you're running too much negative camber (which is normally a result of lowering)Will I see much benefit in fitting them now with stock suspension? Conscious of incurring more labour cost right now if it might give little benefit given the car won’t be going much/at all lower yet?
An update given I have now had the new wheels, new PS4 tyres, RARB and engine mount/FRWB bushes all fitted, followed by geometry:
The car is now miles ahead of what it was beforehand. Steering feel, sharpness of turn-in, the accuracy with which the car can be placed, total grip, progressiveness of grip and especially traction out of corners have all improved immensely. I have only driven it in sub 5 degrees temps but after around 250 miles I can be pretty sure that in the warm/dry the car is now far far beyond fast enough for any kind of road use - I think coilovers can wait at least a year, if ever.
Two issues have arisen though:
The engine is now making a distant whistling sound, the only thing I could compare it to would be to a jet engine whistle. It gets higher pitched and louder with revs. It was really quite frustrating and is now all I can really hear when revving the car out. I don't know if it is intake related or not. It actually seems to be more pronounced if I rev the car in neutral while the car is rolling at speed than if I rev it in neutral at a standstill.
Issue 2 is far more frustrating: since the RARB has been installed there is a horrific knocking at the rear-right of the suspension. It is absolutely intolerable and pretty much makes driving the car without music on unbearable. It happens when any input at all is made or when the road is anything but silk; it will knock/creak more than 100 times per minute. It must be related to the RARB installation as no other work was done to the rear of the car except the geometry and it was not doing it in the period between the new wheels/tyres being fitted and the above work being carried out.
Where do I stand on this kind of knocking, it cannot be normal and is only doing it on one side - should I be expected to be able to have the car returned and it fitted correctly? I have not yet raised it with the installer as I wanted to see if it would 'bed-in' over a hundred miles or so.
The car is now miles ahead of what it was beforehand. Steering feel, sharpness of turn-in, the accuracy with which the car can be placed, total grip, progressiveness of grip and especially traction out of corners have all improved immensely. I have only driven it in sub 5 degrees temps but after around 250 miles I can be pretty sure that in the warm/dry the car is now far far beyond fast enough for any kind of road use - I think coilovers can wait at least a year, if ever.
Two issues have arisen though:
The engine is now making a distant whistling sound, the only thing I could compare it to would be to a jet engine whistle. It gets higher pitched and louder with revs. It was really quite frustrating and is now all I can really hear when revving the car out. I don't know if it is intake related or not. It actually seems to be more pronounced if I rev the car in neutral while the car is rolling at speed than if I rev it in neutral at a standstill.
Issue 2 is far more frustrating: since the RARB has been installed there is a horrific knocking at the rear-right of the suspension. It is absolutely intolerable and pretty much makes driving the car without music on unbearable. It happens when any input at all is made or when the road is anything but silk; it will knock/creak more than 100 times per minute. It must be related to the RARB installation as no other work was done to the rear of the car except the geometry and it was not doing it in the period between the new wheels/tyres being fitted and the above work being carried out.
Where do I stand on this kind of knocking, it cannot be normal and is only doing it on one side - should I be expected to be able to have the car returned and it fitted correctly? I have not yet raised it with the installer as I wanted to see if it would 'bed-in' over a hundred miles or so.
whistle could be turbo or alternator at a guess
knocking will be possibly they didn't use the supplied grease in the bar bushes, but more likely the top arb link nut/s are not tight enough. The holes on the bar aren't a taper fit like at the bottom, and the strength of the bar is likely defeating the torque applied to the standard nuts, they really need a big pull.
as above, regarding bed in, so many people use that term for suspension related stuff, any noise or unusual sensation requires investigation.
knocking will be possibly they didn't use the supplied grease in the bar bushes, but more likely the top arb link nut/s are not tight enough. The holes on the bar aren't a taper fit like at the bottom, and the strength of the bar is likely defeating the torque applied to the standard nuts, they really need a big pull.
as above, regarding bed in, so many people use that term for suspension related stuff, any noise or unusual sensation requires investigation.
Thank you for the replies and guidance.
As said, I hear so many tales of knocking 'that is to be expected' and so on but there car is now booked in.
The whistling sound was occurring the day before the car had the suspension/chassis work done so I will have it investigated separately. The car made 225bhp on the dyno which was below what I was expecting given with my mods on the stock map it made 189bhp.
I'll be taking things very gently on both the engine and suspension and see what turns up - I can't get it looked at for another 5 days.
Modding is very exciting, isn't it...
As said, I hear so many tales of knocking 'that is to be expected' and so on but there car is now booked in.
The whistling sound was occurring the day before the car had the suspension/chassis work done so I will have it investigated separately. The car made 225bhp on the dyno which was below what I was expecting given with my mods on the stock map it made 189bhp.
I'll be taking things very gently on both the engine and suspension and see what turns up - I can't get it looked at for another 5 days.
Modding is very exciting, isn't it...
Suspension is being sorted this Wednesday. Car is being treated gently until then.
Here is a video of the sound I’m describing, my phone microphone is terrible but it actually manages to pick up the metallic whistling type sound very well.
https://youtu.be/Y8YCRXyayjA
This sound was *not* present a couple of weeks ago and came on suddenly.
It correlates exactly with the revs; if I rev out then lift off the will slow ‘whirr’ down in pitch/volume as the revs falls.
Here is a video of the sound I’m describing, my phone microphone is terrible but it actually manages to pick up the metallic whistling type sound very well.
https://youtu.be/Y8YCRXyayjA
This sound was *not* present a couple of weeks ago and came on suddenly.
It correlates exactly with the revs; if I rev out then lift off the will slow ‘whirr’ down in pitch/volume as the revs falls.
Update to the above:
Went back to the installer of the RARB/geometry to have the knocking reviews.
They said they uninstalled, regreased and retorqued the RARB and check the drop links and arms for any looseness and nothing was loose at all and the car isnsafe and handling perfectly but the knocking is STILL there.
Their only suggestion was that it could be the rear top mounts are worn. It wasn’t knocking at all before so is the installation of a RARB and having the geometry set like to to bring out knocking if this was the case? Feel at a loss here in how to proceed.
They also had no idea as to the source of the whistling/whirring in the video I posted above, so I have no idea how to sort that either other than throwing money at it to be investigated properly, which I think I might have to do.
Went back to the installer of the RARB/geometry to have the knocking reviews.
They said they uninstalled, regreased and retorqued the RARB and check the drop links and arms for any looseness and nothing was loose at all and the car isnsafe and handling perfectly but the knocking is STILL there.
Their only suggestion was that it could be the rear top mounts are worn. It wasn’t knocking at all before so is the installation of a RARB and having the geometry set like to to bring out knocking if this was the case? Feel at a loss here in how to proceed.
They also had no idea as to the source of the whistling/whirring in the video I posted above, so I have no idea how to sort that either other than throwing money at it to be investigated properly, which I think I might have to do.
Edited by Complex on Friday 22 December 14:58
Complex said:
Update to the above:
Went back to the installer of the RARB/geometry to have the knocking reviews.
They said they uninstalled, regreased and retorqued the RARB and check the drop links and arms for any looseness and nothing was loose at all and the car isnsafe and handling perfectly but the knocking is STILL there.
Their only suggestion was that it could be the rear top mounts are worn. It wasn’t knocking at all before so is the installation of a RARB and having the geometry set like to to bring out knocking if this was the case? Feel at a loss here in how to proceed.
They also had no idea as to the source of the whistling/whirring in the video I posted above, so I have no idea how to sort that either other than throwing money at it to be investigated properly, which I think I might have to do.
2 months down the line:Went back to the installer of the RARB/geometry to have the knocking reviews.
They said they uninstalled, regreased and retorqued the RARB and check the drop links and arms for any looseness and nothing was loose at all and the car isnsafe and handling perfectly but the knocking is STILL there.
Their only suggestion was that it could be the rear top mounts are worn. It wasn’t knocking at all before so is the installation of a RARB and having the geometry set like to to bring out knocking if this was the case? Feel at a loss here in how to proceed.
They also had no idea as to the source of the whistling/whirring in the video I posted above, so I have no idea how to sort that either other than throwing money at it to be investigated properly, which I think I might have to do.
Edited by Complex on Friday 22 December 14:58
I don't know if I have just become too accustomed to it but the engine whistling seems to have subsided, at least somewhat. Still no idea what it is and its hard to diagnose from the cabin with a loudish exhaust.
On the RARB knocking:
I went back to the installer and asked that they look into the knocking as it was almost certainly caused by the Alta 22mm RARB installation, they didn't seem convinced but had a look anyway.
Apparently the 22mm RARB was fouling against the rear spring, so it was swapped out for a 19mm RARB and tested. On testing the knocking was barely there and I wanted to maintain the handling benefits of a thicker RARB (we put the 19mm RARB on a stiffer setting to replicate what I had been running on the 22mm one) and didn't want to go to the effort of getting in another stock bar and having it fitted.
The knocking is now a little more pronounced after 2 weeks, certainly not as bad as with the 22mm RARB but still there for sure.
They said that in spite of fitting dozens of them over the years they've never actually fitted a thicker RARB to a car that didn't have coilovers, all of which have slimmer rear springs and where fouling is not an issue.
Does the above sound like a feasible diagnosis?
The difference between the stock bar and the 19mm one is 2mm... so 1mm on the inside, would that reeaaally cause audible knocking? I seem to be able to fit two fingers between the RARB and the spring when the car is stationary, is there that much travel in the components that the RARB would move so much as to contact the spring? Another thing to note is that when I pull away after the car has been parked for several hours, there's sometimes a slight clunk from the rear suspension, does this correlate with a RARB fouling against a spring?
I'm going to need this looked into again but don't have the time nor patience to deal with the long drive to the firm I've been using so far, so want to get a good view on it before I take it to someone new.
I'd get the 22mm bar refitted yesterday.
You need to put up some pics of what you can see, with the car on the ground and jacked up really, to see how the clearance changes,
Definitely don't be put off having a rear bar with OEM suspension, you don't 'need' coilovers, they can enhance but for a bigger bar the inference it's a poor decision is tosh.
I have a 25.5mm rear bar which fouled nothing with OEM suspension, albeit R53 but little changes, since I added coilovers, and since that I added R56S JCW brakes, and R56 trailing arms.
Go get your better bar back, if only one last trip,
Just my2p ;O)
You need to put up some pics of what you can see, with the car on the ground and jacked up really, to see how the clearance changes,
Definitely don't be put off having a rear bar with OEM suspension, you don't 'need' coilovers, they can enhance but for a bigger bar the inference it's a poor decision is tosh.
I have a 25.5mm rear bar which fouled nothing with OEM suspension, albeit R53 but little changes, since I added coilovers, and since that I added R56S JCW brakes, and R56 trailing arms.
Go get your better bar back, if only one last trip,
Just my2p ;O)
Which then begs the question what exactly is clunking and knocking against what and why did it only come about when the they installed the RARB (and why does a thinner RARB reduce the severity)?
Thank you for your honest point of view on it! Shame it's now making me doubt everything that's been said and leaving me in a bit of a hole on what to do again! To go back and get the thicker RARB would leave me with unbearably loud clunking and none-the-wiser.
Edit - I'll see what I can do with pictures when I get the chance.
Thanks for your input again!
Thank you for your honest point of view on it! Shame it's now making me doubt everything that's been said and leaving me in a bit of a hole on what to do again! To go back and get the thicker RARB would leave me with unbearably loud clunking and none-the-wiser.
Edit - I'll see what I can do with pictures when I get the chance.
Thanks for your input again!
Edited by Complex on Monday 26th February 13:09
when you stiffen the rear like this, you're transferring the load and motion of the compressed side of the car, partially into the other as well, the load's are really pretty high. This doesn't answer your question but is just to highlight the mechanical changes applied by the additional torsion of the bar.
some bars slide laterally in the bushes which they shouldn't, and if that's the case with yours, potentially allowing it to move across into/onto something else, others have remedied this by simply centralising the bar and adding a piece of hose clamped to the bar either side of the mounting, or the inside of both.
this might be hypothetical as I can't see your car or it's bits haha.
I'm going to have a read back through this................
some bars slide laterally in the bushes which they shouldn't, and if that's the case with yours, potentially allowing it to move across into/onto something else, others have remedied this by simply centralising the bar and adding a piece of hose clamped to the bar either side of the mounting, or the inside of both.
this might be hypothetical as I can't see your car or it's bits haha.
I'm going to have a read back through this................
ok, if you bought the Alta bar pictured earlier it has raised areas to stop it shifting. If the bar is fouling the spring as they say, this sounds odd when you add that you can get two fingers between these components with the car stationary. I doubt the suspension is moving to the degree that gap closes enough to foul just on pull away or for the slight conditions you suggest the noise becomes evident.
The ARB's don't actually move far independently of the damper really, you can see this from the way everything's mounted.
my initial opinion to swap the bar back remains, it wasn't cheap, so either get a 100% refund and your original bar restored if they maintain it is the cause, maybe with some degree of credit for wasting time and fuel, or get the bar you intended on purchasing for the right initial reasons, refitted. and find the solution locally? Right now I think it may be best to hit the reset button, and get your OEM bar back on. Then start again after more research?
Fwiw, adjusting the bar you didn't go out to buy, to a different setting in an attempt to achieve the same result as the one you wanted, is a poor compromise, and is only ever going to be that if you keep OEM suspension. As soon as you change to coils if you do, you'll want more adjustment most likely. Even if you don't, I wouldn't expect you to be happy with being on the limit of adjustment with no/less potential to add more. I'm sure the OEM bar is 17mm? Having a 19mm bar is probably an upgrade for someone with a Mini One or Cooper in my mind. Hence my very first reply.....22+ for your model.
Don't let anyone tell you fitting a bigger bar with OEM suspension doesn't work though, plenty have done it including me as I say, 25.5mm and fine.
Shame I'm so far away, would love to have a look at this.
The ARB's don't actually move far independently of the damper really, you can see this from the way everything's mounted.
my initial opinion to swap the bar back remains, it wasn't cheap, so either get a 100% refund and your original bar restored if they maintain it is the cause, maybe with some degree of credit for wasting time and fuel, or get the bar you intended on purchasing for the right initial reasons, refitted. and find the solution locally? Right now I think it may be best to hit the reset button, and get your OEM bar back on. Then start again after more research?
Fwiw, adjusting the bar you didn't go out to buy, to a different setting in an attempt to achieve the same result as the one you wanted, is a poor compromise, and is only ever going to be that if you keep OEM suspension. As soon as you change to coils if you do, you'll want more adjustment most likely. Even if you don't, I wouldn't expect you to be happy with being on the limit of adjustment with no/less potential to add more. I'm sure the OEM bar is 17mm? Having a 19mm bar is probably an upgrade for someone with a Mini One or Cooper in my mind. Hence my very first reply.....22+ for your model.
Don't let anyone tell you fitting a bigger bar with OEM suspension doesn't work though, plenty have done it including me as I say, 25.5mm and fine.
Shame I'm so far away, would love to have a look at this.
Once again thank you for your incredibly generous time/guidance on reading back into this.
I loathe the thought of taking yet more time out of work to make the long trip back to the original installer. The incurred cost in time/fuel isn't short of the cost of a new bar anyway (I foolishly did not retain the stock bar).
Going to give this some more thought and come back, hopefully with some half useful photos.
Also worth noting that the creak is far greater to the right side of the rear than it is on the left. Unsure if it is a worn top mount bush or the like and the symptoms of which being exaggerated by the rear now being more taut.
I loathe the thought of taking yet more time out of work to make the long trip back to the original installer. The incurred cost in time/fuel isn't short of the cost of a new bar anyway (I foolishly did not retain the stock bar).
Going to give this some more thought and come back, hopefully with some half useful photos.
Also worth noting that the creak is far greater to the right side of the rear than it is on the left. Unsure if it is a worn top mount bush or the like and the symptoms of which being exaggerated by the rear now being more taut.
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